Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Enhanced Plunge II: 5% chance to reduce Carve&Spit/Abyssal Drain CD by 5 seconds

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That could introduce some rng into the perfectly bland 60 second loop, so it's definitely not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That could introduce some rng into the perfectly bland 60 second loop, so it's definitely not gonna happen.

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I remember when Unmend had a chance of making your next Unleash cost no MP. Was a neat little bonus when doing mob pulls, or a kinda refund of a GCD when grabbing a stray mob chasing down one of your DPS. Love that kind of little things.

Joking aside, i do hope for some kind Oblation and/or Dark Mind buff/rework.
I'd hope SE removes shared cooldown on the AD and C&S and shortens AD cooldown to something like 30 seconds. Or merge them into AoE attack with a falloff which both heals and restores MP per target hit.

Having their CD lowered or have something like reducing it by 5s upon execution of Bloodspiller/Quietus might make them more useful (and while we're copy/pasting warrior anyway, might as well commit to it)
Honestly I just wish we had more ressource to manage than blood and MP. Have something to do with darkside for gods sake.

Considering that Abyssal Drain heals less than a singular Bloodwhetting GCD but has more than double the cooldown of Bloodwhetting, its the skill I'd like to see reworked more than anything else.

I dont think it should have ever been stapled to Carve and Spit as if its the AOE version of that skill, Abyssal is infinitely cooler for being a ranged AOE on a tank. The skill should be way more usable than it currently is, and I wouldn't even mind seeing it return to the single target rotation.

Fixing Dark Mind is as simple as moving some of its mit to not be magic specific. (10%/10% would be perfect), Abyssal needs a full rework.

This is a really rough (and dumb) idea, but if Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow are going to remain mostly the same going into Dawntrail, I'd like if they sprinkled some extra mechanics into the mix in ways that are tied to them. It might make more sense to try this with Delirium, Bloodspiller, and Quietus, but I think those could have their own host of changes to move them a bit further away from feeling like recolored WAR skills.

I'd like if they implemented a new gauge mechanic of four "shards," as I'll call them for the sake of example. Every time Edge/Flood of Shadow is used, you generate one shard, up to a maximum of four at a time. They do not decay over time. Using Edge/Flood of Shadow a fifth time while at maximum shards would consume all shards, and cause potent AoE damage in an area around the DRK. Alternatively, certain abilities can consume shards for strengthened effects based on number of shards consumed.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0e67519befe60&
(Graphic design is my passion.)

Firstly, detach Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit, and let C&S generate one shard on use. Lower AD's cooldown, and have it consume shards for a higher potency heal per shard.

Second, change Dark Mind and Dark Missionary's magic mitigation to universal mitigation. After unlocking this shard mechanic, upgrade both with a trait that allows them to consume shards for stronger effects. Say, 5% additional per shard. (Alternatively, axe Dark Mind and have Oblation consume shards.)

Keep Salted Earth the same I guess, but let Salt and Darkness generate one shard.

I don't know if anybody would find this system interesting at all, but I believe tanks are in desperate need of having additional mechanics sprinkled into their existing kits to make them more interesting and set them apart from one another. I don't know if this "fixes" DRK, but it revolves around two skills you'll be using consistently while bringing some of their abilities into the modern age. It's not perfect, but I'm not a one-person dev team.

I think they should remove one of the DRK's gauges and focus on expanding heavily on the remaining one.
For example:

"Darkside":
- Remove Bloodgauge or heavily simplify it ( look at "Bloodgauge" )
- Increase upper capacity of Darkside to 90 seconds, Darkside does not decay over time passively
- When above 0 , Darkside gives 10% more damage, with an additional 10% skill / spell speed when above 60
- Delirium grants a special 3 part combo that can only be used when Darkside is above 60, each attack consumes Darkside gauge by 6
- Bloodspiller also consumes Darkside gauge by 6 , but does less damage than Delirium combo
- Remove Living Shadow, make the frequency of the Delirium combo 40, so you have to manage your Darkside so you are always above 60 but don't over cap too much as you can use that for combos or Bloodspiller

"Blackblood":
- Mostly every action grants you blackblood
- It doesn't do anything on its own, augments defensive abilities with healing effects
- Up to 100 points in gauge, using a defensive action consumes 50 points
- When used on TBN - grants a 10% heal after barrier breaks
- When used on Oblation - grants a 200 potency regen for 12 seconds
- When used on Abyssal Drain - grants a 600 potency heal per enemy hit and increases the radius of the "explosion" by 50%
- When used on Dark Missionary - grants a heal of 50 potency over 21 seconds to everyone hit

Its not hard to achieve as you anyway do about x3 -> x5 Edge of Shadows and you cannot go under the 60 point mark unless you do the Delirium combo or Bloodspiller / Quietus

It's got too many OGCD options to fire off in the first few rounds with the way it is designed right now that is for sure. There's some kind of breaking point on having just the right number of cooldowns and too many cooldowns, and it gets hit somewhere between 70 and 90.

Just went back to playing DRK at 90 and holy crap is my brain stressing out trying to deal with having all of these up at once...

Oblation, Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon, Delirium, Salted Earth, Carve and Split, Edge of Shadow, and plunge on top of the main combo. And with all of that going on you're trying to also balance out the defense cooldowns because this job even with the changes feels like it leans a crap ton on a shield that lasts 7 seconds. This sounds like a long time until you realize this games GCD system is 2 seconds and sometimes monsters just decide to chill out doing some aoe move that costs most of the time. Or just have this brain fart during pulls where they stand there until the server realizes "Oh yeah this should probably be chasing the tank now".

Still feels like the coolest tank to play, but this job definitely is hard to just pickup again if someone takes a break. Most of the other ones have a chain and stuff kind of slots in along the chain. This one is like "roll face on keyboard" 1-2-3 1-2-3 "do some minor stuff" 1-2-3 1-2-3 "do something minor" 1-2-3 "roll face on keyboard".

And when someone is in the rolling face on keyboard phase, they have no way to react or use defense cooldowns because all the OGCD slots are stuffed with dps stuff. So it isn't even the same set of stuff all the time depending on the situation. Even DPS generally fall back into the same pattern if they get resurrected, just the timing goes a little off on a main combo. With DRK because of all the OGCDs it just warps into different things, so someone constantly has to keep their eye on the hot bars just to make sure they can make sure they hit the right OGCD attack on the priority list.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's got too many OGCD options to fire off in the first few rounds with the way it is designed right now that is for sure. There's some kind of breaking point on having just the right number of cooldowns and too many cooldowns, and it gets hit somewhere between 70 and 90.

Just went back to playing DRK at 90 and holy crap is my brain stressing out trying to deal with having all of these up at once...

Oblation, Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon, Delirium, Salted Earth, Carve and Split, Edge of Shadow, and plunge on top of the main combo. And with all of that going on you're trying to also balance out the defense cooldowns because this job even with the changes feels like it leans a crap ton on a shield that lasts 7 seconds. This sounds like a long time until you realize this games GCD system is 2 seconds and sometimes monsters just decide to chill out doing some aoe move that costs most of the time. Or just have this brain fart during pulls where they stand there until the server realizes "Oh yeah this should probably be chasing the tank now".

Still feels like the coolest tank to play, but this job definitely is hard to just pickup again if someone takes a break. Most of the other ones have a chain and stuff kind of slots in along the chain. This one is like "roll face on keyboard" 1-2-3 1-2-3 "do some minor stuff" 1-2-3 1-2-3 "do something minor" 1-2-3 "roll face on keyboard".

And when someone is in the rolling face on keyboard phase, they have no way to react or use defense cooldowns because all the OGCD slots are stuffed with dps stuff. So it isn't even the same set of stuff all the time depending on the situation. Even DPS generally fall back into the same pattern if they get resurrected, just the timing goes a little off on a main combo. With DRK because of all the OGCDs it just warps into different things, so someone constantly has to keep their eye on the hot bars just to make sure they can make sure they hit the right OGCD attack on the priority list.

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You're supposed to plan your mitigations, not react. That's a Warrior thing.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

You're supposed to plan your mitigations, not react. That's a Warrior thing.

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Planning works in the more controlled environments like savage and doesn't work in less controlled environments that show up in regular content. Tanks have to have a mix to support both environments to really function well.

Also as a warrior main, it isn't a job that only reacts: It basically can do what the DRK can do but also has the ability to react effectively when the person hasn't memorized an encounter. That's why it handles so well and why so many people favor warrior, paladin, and gunbreaker over DRK. There's a lot of opinion on what DRK should do in terms of balancing what it has, but there isn't much to debate on the lack of its ability to self heal in response to unknown threats. That and someone would be rather hard pressed to argue that it is somehow beneficial it lacks that capability outside of a few loose skills, one of which has the same cooldown as carve and split and the other being it's invuln.

They were able to jury rig some solutions in with the invuln including self healing so that it isn't simply suicide without a benediction or something at the ready. Also 3-hit combo actually providing healing at the final blow helped a bit.

I'd prefer if DRK retained it's high APM, in the event the devs continue to refuse to give tanks interesting mechanics to work with. It's the only of the four I actually enjoy playing purely because it's high APM keeps me from passing out at my keyboard. That is to say, though, it's high APM doesn't make it interesting to me. In fact, I don't find DRK very interesting at all, but that's an issue I have with every tank currently. PLD feels half-baked (probably on purpose), WAR puts me to sleep, and GNB... well, I don't know what GNB does, as I can't stand playing it.

I could probably stand to have some of it's burst trimmed off, but unless it actually gets some meat to work with mechanically, I'd prefer DRK stayed busy during burst.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

I'd prefer if DRK retained it's high APM, in the event the devs continue to refuse to give tanks interesting mechanics to work with. It's the only of the four I actually enjoy playing purely because it's high APM keeps me from passing out at my keyboard. That is to say, though, it's high APM doesn't make it interesting to me. In fact, I don't find DRK very interesting at all, but that's an issue I have with every tank currently. PLD feels half-baked (probably on purpose), WAR puts me to sleep, and GNB... well, I don't know what GNB does, as I can't stand playing it.

I could probably stand to have some of it's burst trimmed off, but unless it actually gets some meat to work with mechanically, I'd prefer DRK stayed busy during burst.

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It's not a matter of it being busy as much as not having a clear execution path without having to go to icy veins or some other website to tell you what it is. That and since it is busy the person has to watch their hot bar more than the fight until they have put a rather significant number of hours into it. Machinist can sort of fall into this category, but they are still a lot easier to work around than the DRK since they only got DPS cooldowns and the automata is sort of a fire and forget thing. RPR and WAR take way less hours to master and get good at.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's not a matter of it being busy as much as not having a clear execution path without having to go to icy veins or some other website to tell you what it is. That and since it is busy the person has to watch their hot bar more than the fight until they have put a rather significant number of hours into it. Machinist can sort of fall into this category, but they are still a lot easier to work around than the DRK since they only got DPS cooldowns and the automata is sort of a fire and forget thing. RPR and WAR take way less hours to master and get good at.

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I see all of this as a positive.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

I see all of this as a positive.

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It just depends on which angle someone is coming from on it. In the old days where people weren't feeling pressed into being optimized killing machines in video games for the sake of getting purposefully thrown together grindfests completed, and having to fight end-game encounters literally built to take extreme numbers of hours to clear, it was generally kind of welcomed to have different options. That and comparing notes with friends was a lot more fun back then.

The issue is the kind of game they are building toward right now is a game where the developers have the highest amount of control as possible on the outcome, meaning they got to balance everyone the same. So the only thing that happens with something that is harder to master due to having a ton of abilities is that it gets weaker than the other options per ability, or they let it have an obvious edge over the other options and it becomes a necessity in every group that someone has to become a guru at. AST is basically living this cycle right now as a neglected job that requires a lot more effort to do the same thing a whm can, so it's getting the rework button. DRK is going to be on the chopping block at some point but they have to get through dragoon first because that one is literally backed into a corner.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's got too many OGCD options to fire off in the first few rounds with the way it is designed right now that is for sure. There's some kind of breaking point on having just the right number of cooldowns and too many cooldowns, and it gets hit somewhere between 70 and 90.

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Dark Knight should definitely retain its ogcd focus, its been a staple of the job since it came out.
People bitch and moan all the time that DRK is too similar to WAR, well chopping down its ogcd focus seems incredibly conter-intuitive to making it unique seeing as spamable Edge of Shadow and its critical mass of damage only ogcds is its identity.
Its a busy job, and its the hardest tank to optimize. That is not a bad thing, if you want to play a tank that has fewer buttons to press, WAR and PLD exist just for that.

If you want a tank with just as many buttons to press, but a more rigid and thought out rotation, play Gunbreaker.

It is okay to not like Dark Knight. But please don't ask them to change it to be even more like other tanks because you don't like doing what the job has done since its inception.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Knight should definitely retain its ogcd focus, its been a staple of the job since it came out.
People bitch and moan all the time that DRK is too similar to WAR, well chopping down its ogcd focus seems incredibly conter-intuitive to making it unique seeing as spamable Edge of Shadow and its critical mass of damage only ogcds is its identity.
Its a busy job, and its the hardest tank to optimize. That is not a bad thing, if you want to play a tank that has fewer buttons to press, WAR and PLD exist just for that.

If you want a tank with just as many buttons to press, but a more rigid and thought out rotation, play Gunbreaker.

It is okay to not like Dark Knight. But please don't ask them to change it to be even more like other tanks because you don't like doing what the job has done since its inception.

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It's not really the number of oGCDs that are the issue, it's how they're utilized. You have no real odd minute bursts anymore, yes technically you still burst every minute but that's just because you don't want to waste cooldowns that are ready.

Best example is Shadowbringer, it has a 60 second cooldown but do you use it every 60 seconds? No, because it has 2 charges so of course you bank both for the actual burst every 2 minutes.
Every oGCD is essentially funneled into the party buff window which creates a complete spamfest when it happens but when it isn't happening you're just going through utterly bland filler.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It's not a matter of it being busy as much as not having a clear execution path without having to go to icy veins or some other website to tell you what it is. That and since it is busy the person has to watch their hot bar more than the fight until they have put a rather significant number of hours into it. Machinist can sort of fall into this category, but they are still a lot easier to work around than the DRK since they only got DPS cooldowns and the automata is sort of a fire and forget thing. RPR and WAR take way less hours to master and get good at.

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Every ''con'' you listed in this thread so far is exactly what made me play the job. You don't have to like or play Dark knight, just don't advocate for it to turn even more into the one tank i as an actual Dark knight player, want to play the least.. If i was looking for slow, straight forward, and uninteresting i would be playing Warrior.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Every ''con'' you listed in this thread so far is exactly what made me play the job. You don't have to like or play Dark knight, just don't advocate for it to turn even more into the one tank i as an actual Dark knight player, want to play the least.. If i was looking for slow, straight forward, and uninteresting i would be playing Warrior.

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I can see where you might get this impression, but keep in mind the context of this entire thing. Having a lot of OGCDs isn't a problem if there is a structure to the usage. Machinist has a structure to the OGCDs so there is a rhythm to using them, but DRK loses its rhythm because too many of the OGCDs unintentionally compete with one another at the very onset. That's why it turns into "face roll on keyboard" as an opener and why in some cases a player has to sacrifice a DPS ogcd for a mitigation during some fights. Dropping the number of OGCDs is only one solution to the problem. Another is just going through and redoing the OGCDs so a clear structure exists.

I'd like High Apm, but more throughout it's rotation not just during bursts.

I also think Just having OGCD's doesn't always make the gameplay better, actually having GCD's and combo path attacks would add a lot to tanks in general, but it's been something very lacking in the tank design, the more "complicated" tanks try to be OGCD heavy, which I think gunbreaker strictly just does it better, while DRK is left being very thin on GCD actions while it's ogcd gameplay is all at once. I always saw PLD as a more GCD heavy tank but now it's just spam the lightup button like other tanks, but Honestly I just want more diverse DPS buttons on all tanks... the current design isn't great for anyone.

I think it comes down to mainly a tank issue in general, tanks have just become so meaningless in differences that holding onto the current design of Dark knight is more a thing because of how it can get worse, I mean just look at Paladin, it's not exactly likely they're going to add any complexity to the job, if we're going by the current way jobs are designed/reworked anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd like High Apm, but more throughout it's rotation not just during bursts.

I also think Just having OGCD's doesn't always make the gameplay better, actually having GCD's and combo path attacks would add a lot to tanks in general, but it's been something very lacking in the tank design, the more "complicated" tanks try to be OGCD heavy, which I think gunbreaker strictly just does it better, while DRK is left being very thin on GCD actions while it's ogcd gameplay is all at once. I always saw PLD as a more GCD heavy tank but now it's just spam the lightup button like other tanks, but Honestly I just want more diverse DPS buttons on all tanks... the current design isn't great for anyone.

I think it comes down to mainly a tank issue in general, tanks have just become so meaningless in differences that holding onto the current design of Dark knight is more a thing because of how it can get worse, I mean just look at Paladin, it's not exactly likely they're going to add any complexity to the job, if we're going by the current way jobs are designed/reworked anyway.

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The FFXIV pitfalls mostly are in "drift" and "OGCD bloat". Gunbreaker has the problem that because SE moved to a strict 2 minute window, all the OGCDs have fixed cooldowns that can't be modified by skill speed or spell speed materia. So if someone has a janky connection they start to drift and the window goes with it. That's part of the reason that Yoshi P. likes the reaper so much, because there is no strict self buff window that turns into a minigame of how much you can squeeze into it. Both the Arcane Circle and the Enshroud are fixed with enough give that it is very difficult to not fit the right number of attacks into the burst windows.

Gunbreaker and paladin have drift due to the "Fight or Flight" damage buff OGCD because it doesn't care about how many attacks fit in the window, nor does it care if it was the first OGCD in a set of two or the second OGCD in a set of two.

I don't like the 2 minute window and wish buffs didn't work the way they did. I'd rather just have additive buffs rather than multiplicative buffs, since it means no one has to adhere to a 2 minute window, it just matters that everyone gets their buff in. The math behind it would be different and I don't know if they could pull off changing it though.

Direct Hit would apply a bonus of 25% base damage.
Crit would provide double base damage
Direct damage increases would be x% base damage.

so total damage would be calculated as base damage + 25% base damage + 3% base damage on a direct hit with a damage buff for example, rather than 103% of 125% base damage.

Imo the two min meta should be DPS exclusive while T/H stay on the one min. It would give tanks and healers more consistent damage while DPS can focus on doing more "bursty" damage. It would also bring back dots to tanks since their damage is more consistent throughout a fight and is not heavily reliant on party buffs. All jobs will still meet at two mins but the emphasis is now more on the DPS to actually do the damage. Other than that, direct hit needs to be DPS exclusive and they need to do something with Tenacity.

Personally I would like to see tenacity be a passive buff to mitigation and healing received while all mitigation across the board gets nerfed in tandem. ex. Rampart 15%, 30% mit reduced to 20%, ToB healing reduced to 5%, etc. Defensive cds currently are too powerful and using tenacity as a way of building back that mitigation is a great incentive not just in prog week but as a whole. ex. 800 Tenacity will increase Ramparts base 15% to 20%. It gives you some flexibility in how much defensive do you want in exchange for damage. This would also affect jobs exclusive short cds i.e. TBN, BW, HS, HoC.

People are complaining about WAR's op healing? At base Tenacity you are only getting 100 heal potency per hit. DRK's TBN is 15% at base tenacity, etc. Ultimately, this change will also benefit healers as now tanks are taking more damage so they have to heal more and tanks have to mix and match defensive cds more thoughtfully because they can no longer rely on a single cd to carry them, especially when they go for crit/det. They don't even need to change the outgoing damage of bosses and this would prolong the need to do another stat squish.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Imo the two min meta should be DPS exclusive while T/H stay on the one min. It would give tanks and healers more consistent damage while DPS can focus on doing more "bursty" damage. It would also bring back dots to tanks since their damage is more consistent throughout a fight and is not heavily reliant on party buffs. All jobs will still meet at two mins but the emphasis is now more on the DPS to actually do the damage.

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This would fix absolutely nothing for most tanks because it's basically what we have right now. I know this thread is about Dark Knight but tell me what would change about Warrior's or Paladin's gameplay? They're already on a 60 second loop, sure didn't make either of them more interesting. Even Dark Knight is technically already on a 60 second loop, you just bank Shadowbringer for the party buff window, something you would still do as long as they keep the 2 stacks.

And if you keep tanks and healers on a 60 second rotation the 2-min meta will not be "DPS exclusive" because tanks and healers will inevitably play into it as well.

We ougth to get rid of party wide direct damage buffs and replace that by more horizontal buffs. Things that'll help damage by facilitating doing it (increased movement speed to execute mechanics, why not stuff like increasing range by 10yalm for 15 seconds, etc etc)
In any way the 2 minute meta is stifling a lot of things in the job design and it makes a lot of problems more apparents

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

This would fix absolutely nothing for most tanks because it's basically what we have right now. I know this thread is about Dark Knight but tell me what would change about Warrior's or Paladin's gameplay? They're already on a 60 second loop, sure didn't make either of them more interesting. Even Dark Knight is technically already on a 60 second loop, you just bank Shadowbringer for the party buff window, something you would still do as long as they keep the 2 stacks.

And if you keep tanks and healers on a 60 second rotation the 2-min meta will not be "DPS exclusive" because tanks and healers will inevitably play into it as well.

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That's the point. You want to back off the 2 min meta by emphasizing that its the DPS's job to do damage. The devs have shown they are incapable of balancing around job exclusive windows but 120 can be divided 2, 3, or even 4. This would open up the possibility of bringing back 40 sec cds like how blood weapon used to be in SB. This would benefit DRK in the most part as they can finally get back to SB DRK which imo was peak. It had the high resource management and ogcd spam of ShB/EW DRK but had the utility to match PLD and the healing to match WAR. Everyone will still meet at 2 mins but what they do in between can vary wildly because cds aren't just 120 or 60.

Imagine if in DT we get SB BW and you got to regain MP every 40 secs while also getting a haste buff. It would feel vastly different to the other tanks since you have these mini ogcd burst phases. However, if they really wanted to de-emphasize T/H from taking part in the 2 min meta they can just make all all dps raid buffs affect them at a lower potency ex. MNK Brotherhood is 5% for all DPS but 2% for T/H. This would just make it so that tanks meeting every 2 mins with the DPS is a nice bonus but not the difference between clear and enrage. Lets try to avoid P8S again where jobs that lined perfectly with that 2 min burst window was heavily favored.

Any setup with synchronous raid buffs is going to result in a 'Least Common Multiple (LCM) meta'. Changing burst windows timings to a number that is still a divisor of the LCM doesn't change your gameplay. All that this means is that you likely will have one or two low effort burst windows per LCM cycle where your burst happens outside of a major mechanics check.

For practical purposes, a lot of jobs currently have a 'mini burst' at 1 minute anyways. Where this has the potential to become more interesting is if you have the gauge space to 'store' your 1 minute burst in order to carry it into the 2 minute mark. As an example, RPR has the potential to setup a Triple Enshroud, which can lead to interesting setups around tincture usage as well as special cases like P8S Everburn. If that type of decision making doesn't exist on the job due to having a small gauge capacity, then the specific timing interval isn't really important as long as it's a divisor of the LCM. Asynchronous timings will tend to push a job out of meta.

Damage under raid buffs will always be a consideration for tanks, unless the relative damage contribution of the role becomes so low that it becomes irrelevant. I think you would see a dramatic shift towards 1/2/5 comps well before that point.

I think that the GCD/oGCD balance on DRK is worth commenting on, since all jobs have a limited amount of hotbar space. I think it's reasonable for DRK to swap in a couple more GCD actions so that downtime periods become more interesting. It's worth remembering that oGCD recast frequency has more of an impact on APM than the total number of individual oGCD actions that you have. That's why GNB plays at a higher APM than DRK.

The two minute meta is a completely different thing to the dark knight rework. I mean the honest truth is that the changes it got from Shadowbringers was more like copy pasta warrior except with a worse inner release and no real organization to how the skills are supposed to be setup, leaving the player to figure out absolutely anything and everything while throwing even more OGCDs on it in Endwalker for no good reason. Even the sound staging of the attacks makes delirium feel like it is a cop out as the sound is done in relation to the swing animation rather than the impact of the attack like on warrior.

1. Part of the problem is likely that Dark Knight already had big splashy attacks with Edge of Darkness and Flood of Darkness, with shadowbringer just becoming an MP-less version of either Edge of Darkness or Flood of Darkness depending on the number of targets. Yes, it has different potency calculations. No, that doesn't make it special or different than Flood of Darkness and Edge of Darkness. It's just both of those skills in a single button with two charges.

2. Our living shadow is literally a DOT and I'd rather have a burst phase like reaper and just merge with the shadow than have Delirium and a DOT that looks like a person.

3. Can we just have the Salted Earth have the initial damage from Salt and Darkness as an upgrade, instead of having to manually trigger Salt and Darkness? There is never a time where I'm not going to activate Salt and Darkness INSTANTLY.

4. We do not need two completely disconnected resources.

5. TBN is not good in dungeons. What is the most common healer to go with you in dungeons? A WHM. What does a WHM do on pulls? Uses Holy spam. What does Holy spam do? Stuns absolutely everything! So in order to get the benefit of TBN, it has to break so we get a free flood or Edge, which can't happen if all the enemies are stunned.

6. Also just about every other tank has a better defense kit than DRK does. Shields are not as good as mitigation when dealing with multiple attackers and are only good for buffering against a really strong attack.

I really see no reason why TBN couldn't give the dark arts stack upon the effect fading like HoC does with healing.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I really see no reason why TBN couldn't give the dark arts stack upon the effect fading like HoC does with healing.

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I know! It is baffling why it isn't that way and it is all of these little details that just leave me scratching my head.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I really see no reason why TBN couldn't give the dark arts stack upon the effect fading like HoC does with healing.

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I think it's to add "risk vs rework" to the job, which made sense in SHB when it was bar none the best short CD on a even shorter CD.

Honestly I'd be fine with this though, I want to be able to use TBN actively to protect people who i think might mess up a mech, instead of just not bothering at risk of losing DPS.

Jobs for punish you for using your skills wrong, TBN and dissipation are literally the last examples of this phenomenon existing

They don’t have to completely destroy your rotation if you do them wrong but you shouldn’t be able to just throw out skills whenever you want and not get punished if you do them wrong, HOC should only proc the excog if you take a certain amount of damage under clarity of corrundum, bloodwhetting and holy Shelton are even worse

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Jobs for punish you for using your skills wrong, TBN and dissipation are literally the last examples of this phenomenon existing

They don’t have to completely destroy your rotation if you do them wrong but you shouldn’t be able to just throw out skills whenever you want and not get punished if you do them wrong, HOC should only proc the excog if you take a certain amount of damage under clarity of corrundum, bloodwhetting and holy Shelton are even worse

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It just doesn't make any sense when Drk is already the lowest dps tank for it to risk a dps loss. Especially one that can take place due to external mits..
I nearly had a perfect p10s run but our machinist double mitigated and then i couldn't break TBN on the towers twice.. It's beyond infuriating whenever this happens.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It just doesn't make any sense when Drk is already the lowest dps tank for it to risk a dps loss. Especially one that can take place due to external mits..
I nearly had a perfect p10s run but our machinist double mitigated and then i couldn't break TBN on the towers twice.. It's beyond infuriating whenever this happens.

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That’s a problem with the fact that as we’ve discussed many times WAR just gets everything DRK has with no downsides, TBN is the best designed short CD, square just can’t give any downsides to WAR if you paid them

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s a problem with the fact that as we’ve discussed many times WAR just gets everything DRK has with no downsides, TBN is the best designed short CD, square just can’t give any downsides to WAR if you paid them

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Actually, DRK got everything WAR got with downsides. They copy pasta'ed warrior onto DRK for who knows what reason and then made it an incoherent mess. The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Actually, DRK got everything WAR got with downsides. They copy pasta'ed warrior onto DRK for who knows what reason and then made it an incoherent mess. The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

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Not really, bloodspiller spam is older than WAR’s current fell cleave spam (4.0 vs 4.2), DRK also used to be the gap closer tank before they decided to give WAR 4 gap closers, same as DRK being the OG life suck tank because that was also given to WAR, while being given to every tank DRK losing its niche in how powerful TBN is another example

Most of the features the two share DRK got first then they just gave a better version to WAR later

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The only reason it is playable is because if someone makes a job and its skills are literally a three hit combo and a giant blob of OGCDs, it can kind of survive on its own with a few tweaks to the potencies. But it's not the same as having an actual good rotation or method to the madness.

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It works and plays perfectly fine for me, but let's not act like DRK stands out in terms of (un-)creative job design. DRK, WAR, and PLD all suffer from that, as if somebody in charge at CBU3 is just outright horrified at the idea of doing anything whatsoever to give tanks interesting and interconnected mechanics in their kits. Nearly every job is suffering from it at this point, but those three tanks most of all. The reason I will always prefer DRK is because it, at least, doesn't put me to sleep in the middle of a duty.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

It works and plays perfectly fine for me, but let's not act like DRK stands out in terms of (un-)creative job design. DRK, WAR, and PLD all suffer from that, as if somebody in charge at CBU3 is just outright horrified at the idea of doing anything whatsoever to give tanks interesting and interconnected mechanics in their kits. Nearly every job is suffering from it at this point, but those three tanks most of all. The reason I will always prefer DRK is because it, at least, doesn't put me to sleep in the middle of a duty.

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All of the jobs are Fell Cleave spam.
Even something like GNB which looks original on paper is just Fell Cleave spam with more steps.

Gnashing fang's combo is your 3 free Fell Cleaves
Burst Strike is just Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping
Bloodfest could also be seen as Inner Release.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Jobs for punish you for using your skills wrong, TBN and dissipation are literally the last examples of this phenomenon existing

They don’t have to completely destroy your rotation if you do them wrong but you shouldn’t be able to just throw out skills whenever you want and not get punished if you do them wrong, HOC should only proc the excog if you take a certain amount of damage under clarity of corrundum, bloodwhetting and holy Shelton are even worse

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Then something has to change here, because as it stands TBN is significantly weaker than the other 3, with the only benefit being its 15s CD.
Which isn't bad, but thats the same benfit Dark Mind and Oblation have as well, weaker power with lower CD. Which also wouldn't be so bad if the job had some reasonable Sustain behind it, but it also doesn't leaving an awkward mess where Dark Knights cooldowns are just worse for no tangible upside.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

All of the jobs are Fell Cleave spam.
Even something like GNB which looks original on paper is just Fell Cleave spam with more steps.

Gnashing fang's combo is your 3 free Fell Cleaves
Burst Strike is just Fell Cleave to prevent overcapping
Bloodfest could also be seen as Inner Release.



Then something has to change here, because as it stands TBN is significantly weaker than the other 3, with the only benefit being its 15s CD.
Which isn't bad, but thats the same benfit Dark Mind and Oblation have as well, weaker power with lower CD. Which also wouldn't be so bad if the job had some reasonable Sustain behind it, but it also doesn't leaving an awkward mess where Dark Knights cooldowns are just worse for no tangible upside.

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We need to have an uncomfortable conversation as a community about powercreep first, and i don't think people (you know who) are ready for that.
Because if you buff TBN then a certain portion of the playerbase will lose their mind again in this never ending armsrace.
The alternative option is to just make Drk worse than every other tank, which seems to be the solution SE has settled for.
Because we don't have streamers representing our job spearheading internet rants, this is easier for them to deal with.

It absolutely doesn't matter if the job is a copy of another job anyway. What matters is if it is a worse copy than the others and unfortunately it is.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

It absolutely doesn't matter if the job is a copy of another job anyway. What matters is if it is a worse copy than the others and unfortunately it is.

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Well, any time Drk did something different the Warrior playerbase was up in arms about it until it got homogenised.. So that just brings us back to the same uncomfortable conversation.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Well, any time Drk did something different the Warrior playerbase was up in arms about it until it got homogenised.. So that just brings us back to the same uncomfortable conversation.

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I know you're on a crusade against warrior but let's not make up some weird myth that warrior players somehow caused Dark Knight's 5.0 rework that just turned it into Warrior-but-worse.