Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by aiqa

So if the WAR doesn't selfheal, and healers don't heal the WAR, how do you imagine the WAR stays alive during any boss fight? And are you saying it would be fine for WAR to lose all selfhealing then? Since it's not needed anyway.

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Please read carefully.

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Healer oGCDs are so powerful you can do an entire savage tier without a single GCD heal, or minimal GCD healing.

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Healers are already barely healing, or doing the least amount of healing possible. You could remove all self-healing from ALL tanks, and this would not change. It's an encounter design problem, and not a WAR problem.

The solution is not to take self-healing from other roles, but to instead design encounters so that healers have to heal more.

It's really, really not that hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Please read carefully.



Healers are already barely healing, or doing the least amount of healing possible. You could remove all self-healing from ALL tanks, and this would not change. It's an encounter design problem, and not a WAR problem.

The solution is not to take self-healing from other roles, but to instead design encounters so that healers have to heal more.

It's really, really not that hard to understand.

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While I would agree that the tank self-sustain in Endwalker is less of an issue in savage, adding even more sustain and mitigation on top with 7.0 is certainly not a solution.
At some point no amount of increase in incoming damage is going to counteract the unnecessary amounts of self-heal we have, especially healing with 0 tradeoffs which just makes them completely free.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

While I would agree that the tank self-sustain in Endwalker is less of an issue in savage, adding even more sustain and mitigation on top with 7.0 is certainly not a solution.
At some point no amount of increase in incoming damage is going to counteract the unnecessary amounts of self-heal we have, especially healing with 0 tradeoffs which just makes them completely free.

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Other games in the genre have no issue balancing increasing player power with encounters, why should this game be different? If you give players something powerful, create reasons for players to HAVE to use them or they fail, rather than the baseline difficulty staying the same while players get stronger.

So should raids begin with a permanent dot to everyone so healers get to heal more?

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Other games in the genre have no issue balancing increasing player power with encounters, why should this game be different? If you give players something powerful, create reasons for players to HAVE to use them or they fail, rather than the baseline difficulty staying the same while players get stronger.

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The funny thing about that approach is you'll just end up pressuring people to only take the jobs with the highest throughputs, which will lead to further homogenisation later down the road.
I think tanks just need nerfs at this stage.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It's really hard to take you seriously when you insist on blaming WAR players for the dev's choices to homogenize all jobs.

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I mean, they technically can.

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Originally Posted by Launched

WAR is the standard every other job should live up to. Being well designed is what makes it strong. WAR doesn't have any useless skills, so of course it's going to be better than the ones that have skillslots wasted on trash like Cover and Tempered Will, or duplicate skills like Abyssal Drain, or procs that pidgeonhole them into the MT role instead of letting them work anywhere. DRK and PLD are pretty far from being well designed, and the patch/expansion where they nerf WAR instead of fixing PLD's/DRK's flaws (and you can fix those flaws while still leaving weaknesses, WAR has some) is the patch/expansion where I quit tanking.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mean, they technically can.

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Not just technically, it's objectively.
The thing is, War players currently don't really have a lot to complain about when no tank does anything better than War.
I suspect we'll see them crawl out of the woodworks again in Dawntrail.

I agree with this, DRK feels like a relic compared to the other jobs when it comes to their short CD (TBN).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mean, they technically can.

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This post is from 2016.

I know. Some things never change.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Please read carefully.



Healers are already barely healing, or doing the least amount of healing possible. You could remove all self-healing from ALL tanks, and this would not change. It's an encounter design problem, and not a WAR problem.

The solution is not to take self-healing from other roles, but to instead design encounters so that healers have to heal more.

It's really, really not that hard to understand.

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Your claims about GCD and OGCD heals were general statements about healers in savage content, not about their interaction with tanks. About specifically healer interaction with WAR tanks you said "WAR could lose all of its self-healing and healers would still not be healing." If you meant "not be healing with GCD heals," you should have said so. But saying that sounds a lot less convincing, doesn't it?

Besides that, tank heals are regularly far to strong compared to heals from healers. Healers pay a heavy price to do strong heals, while tanks seemingly get them for free on top of all the usual tank advantages. Uniquely WAR gets low cooldown OGCD/inherent healing against groups of enemies that is far stronger than any healer can maintain with a similarly low cooldown, much less while also keeping up their damage output.

Trinity MMO's have avoided balancing between roles by giving roles unique capabilities, and making those roles required. Healer/dps can't survive holding agro. Tanks/dps can't do significant healing. Tanks/healers can't do enough damage to finish the fights fast enough (due to enrage or player preference).
FF made the mistake of removing the uniqueness of the healer role. Far to much of the healer role is shared with tanks (mostly WAR, and gee I wonder which players think that is fine). It is at a point where healers and tanks have so much overlap that healing balance is starting to favor tanks in certain situations. And that balance cannot be fixed by only changing content, that would require impossibly strict content balancing and the healer role would still be to dilluted to avoid regular "healer not needed" situations for any slightly easier group content. Either healers need a massive buff, and all content needs to be reworked to accommodate that, or tank (self and team) heals need to be toned down.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Other games in the genre have no issue balancing increasing player power with encounters, why should this game be different? If you give players something powerful, create reasons for players to HAVE to use them or they fail, rather than the baseline difficulty staying the same while players get stronger.

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Show me another MMO with a trinity healer role, where healer players are fine with a tank (like WAR) that heals its full health bar multiple times without losing dps and on a low cooldown, when fighting groups of enemies. And where healers can't maintain single target healing output higher then that tank's selfhealing against groups.

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Originally Posted by StrangeIove

I agree with this, DRK feels like a relic compared to the other jobs when it comes to their short CD (TBN).

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TBN... back when short CDs didn't come packaged with like 3 effects. lol.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mean, they technically can.

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I don't see how thinking HW WAR was well designed and saying that PLD/DRK could be improved while still leaving flaws makes it sound like I wanted all tanks to be the same.

Your opening sentence was 'WAR is the standard every other job should live up to.'

This is the recursive loop that you use to maintain the status quo. When people point out that WAR is overpowered, it becomes 'WAR is well designed, it's the other jobs that have the problem.' When people suggest ways of eliminating that disparity, it quickly flips over to 'Don't homogenize the jobs.'

You need to look at the bigger picture. Sometimes what benefits you personally is at odds with what is needed for the tank role and game as a whole. It's not just tanks that are affected by the design choices around WAR. Other roles are now being impacted as well.

I don't think that a solution can wait until 8.0. At the very least, I hope that they were smart enough to quietly rebalance WAR's self-healing through stat/level scaling.

This seems to be the state of every thread regarding WAR

-WAR needs some kind of nerf or scaling change
1) don’t change bloodwhetting/SIO/holmgang it’s a well designed skill buff the other tanks to compensate

-okay here are some changes to the other tanks (ignoring healers) to compensate
2) that’s just job homogenisation, why can’t WAR just have this niche

-okay how about we nerf WAR’s damage so it can be the support tank and better reflect its complexity
3) nerfs don’t work you should buff the other tanks- return to point 2


Every thread with WAR boils down to every change that buffs WAR is good, every change that inadvertently nerfs WAR (basically by buffing anyone else) is bad and the circular logic reinforces this

This is to say nothing of if square implanted every buff WAR mains suggested for the other tanks so that they never have to receive a nerf by 8.0 tanks will all three roles in one doing better damage than the DPS and more healing than the healers

SCH outright received a nerf to its best ever skill in EW and SCH mains just swallowed it, why is it so hard for WAR mains

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This seems to be the state of every thread regarding WAR

-WAR needs some kind of nerf or scaling change
1) don’t change bloodwhetting/SIO/holmgang it’s a well designed skill buff the other tanks to compensate

-okay here are some changes to the other tanks (ignoring healers) to compensate
2) that’s just job homogenisation, why can’t WAR just have this niche

-okay how about we nerf WAR’s damage so it can be the support tank and better reflect its complexity
3) nerfs don’t work you should buff the other tanks- return to point 2


Every thread with WAR boils down to every change that buffs WAR is good, every change that inadvertently nerfs WAR (basically by buffing anyone else) is bad and the circular logic reinforces this

This is to say nothing of if square implanted every buff WAR mains suggested for the other tanks so that they never have to receive a nerf by 8.0 tanks will all three roles in one doing better damage than the DPS and more healing than the healers

SCH outright received a nerf to its best ever skill in EW and SCH mains just swallowed it, why is it so hard for WAR mains

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Welcome to what tank mains have been dealing with for the past 6 years.

The gimmicks of each tank has been so diluted besides WAR lol.
A new player will see WAR life drain and instantly know it's entire deal but with any other tank they won't get it. Is Gunbreaker the damage tank? No it's damage is the same as everyone else. Is DRK the mage tank? No PLD also uses magic. I think new players might only view PLD as the support tank because of passage of arms but even then warriors support move is just a better version of PLDs. Despite how awkward Dark Arts was at least it gave DRK an identity different from both tanks at the time. I'm not saying we need it back but I will say every single tank needs to have something that makes them unique from the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

The gimmicks of each tank has been so diluted besides WAR lol.
A new player will see WAR life drain and instantly know it's entire deal but with any other tank they won't get it. Is Gunbreaker the damage tank? No it's damage is the same as everyone else. Is DRK the mage tank? No PLD also uses magic. I think new players might only view PLD as the support tank because of passage of arms but even then warriors support move is just a better version of PLDs. Despite how awkward Dark Arts was at least it gave DRK an identity different from both tanks at the time. I'm not saying we need it back but I will say every single tank needs to have something that makes them unique from the other tanks.

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Everything has been streamlined except Warrior.
Every other tank had it's identity streamlined.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Everything has been streamlined except Warrior.
Every other tank had it's identity streamlined.

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Streamlined is probably the wrong word, no tank is more streamlined than Warrior, they've long since sandblasted all the edges from that job.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

SCH outright received a nerf to its best ever skill in EW and SCH mains just swallowed it, why is it so hard for WAR mains

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It should also be noted that unless they change this by live they actually nerfed DRK's sustain slightly by reducing its mp generation under Delirium/Bloodweapon.
They also saw it fit to give WAR a 3rd regen.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

It should also be noted that unless they change this by live they actually nerfed DRK's sustain slightly by reducing its mp generation under Delirium/Bloodweapon.
They also saw it fit to give WAR a 3rd regen.

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No I mean SCH got a nerf in a live patch

Jobs get stealth nerfed in new expansions to realign their potencies and such all the time but one of the biggest “cornerstones” of the pro WAR argument is never nerf, only buff others

SCH straight up got a nerf in a live patch and to its best and newest shiny skill. And SCH mains just took it because we accepted that the skill was altering the meta too strongly.

WAR mains can’t even handle this

Stop nerfing warrior other tanks are just pathetic creatures.. Paladin defence is laughable and dark knight is just a worst tank ever..

Other tanks need to get large Improvement

All the crying about warrior self healing in dungeons is hilarious. I remember in stormblood where they took away our bloodbath and gave them to melee dps. We got pissed and got nascent flash to give it back to us in Endwalker. News flash, Warrior was terrible in Endwalker and got screwballed with more taken away after the tank rework with only nascent flash and the chaos variations. In Endwalker Warrior and PLD were both the two weakest tanks were they struggled with optimal play to hit dps checks in the 2nd savage tier before they had to buff them.
Finally people losing their minds that shake has a weak Regen and damnation got a Regen.
Come on... That's such a reach. All tanks got an extra effect of the 40% and the Regen is easily the 2nd worst outside of GNBs thrill of battle extra effect. War self healing is good in dungeons, so fix dungeons to deal more AOE damage to the party like the certain part in one of the lvl 100 dungeons more regularly to make healers happy for now.

Here we go again, another classic war main's excuse.

Warrior and Dark knight should consume health to do damage

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Warrior and Dark knight should consume health to do damage

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Dark Knight already does that, just play Dark Knight and see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Keldion

Dark Knight already does that, just play Dark Knight and see for yourself.

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Do you ever play DRK outside of pvp?

As someone who plays drk in both(poorly in pvp), drk absolutely does not sacrifice hp for damage in pve...

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Do you ever play DRK outside of pvp?

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I don't PVP. The joke is that we don't have the crutch known as Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting.

Does it really matter as long as you think the gameplay is fun? If all tanks can do the content, who cares which one is technically the best? You're not competing against each other you're competing against the NPC enemies.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Stop nerfing warrior other tanks are just pathetic creatures.. Paladin defence is laughable and dark knight is just a worst tank ever..

Other tanks need to get large Improvement

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WAR performance is not only a problem compared to other tanks. It also rivals (or eclipses in certain content) ogcd healing from WHM. Changing that would require a while healer role balancing pass too.

To "balance" this, they'd need to buff all heals from other tanks and buff all healers and increase all player health to match the increased healing and up difficulty on all content to give players the intended challenge level, or nerf WAR.