Let's redefine "damage taxes"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Because 1% is very insignificant. See that's the point. The dev team must balance around two ideals: Any standard comp can clear and proper balance. The former basically makes it so that proper balance tiers must be squished to such that even from the ceiling to the floor of optimization that everything is still relative to one another

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1% is very significant. Proper balance proves it.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Selfish DPS or not is irrelevant. rDPS is your DPS, the only difference is that you need to worry about other people pushing buttons for it, but in a high end setting that's a non factor. MCH being at practically the top would do nothing but spit on every other Job given it's sheer amount of ease of play. It belongs at the bottom with SMN, which again would with proper balance still be viable because ~5% from top to bottom isn't a big deal and would be better balance than we've ever had

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Why is SAM top rDPS and MCH bottom rDPS when they're both selfish DPS?

Incoming logical fallacy about how running on a side walk is harder than walking up a mountain.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Why is SAM top rDPS and MCH bottom rDPS when they're both selfish DPS?

Incoming logical fallacy about how running on a side walk is harder than walking up a mountain.

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SAM wouldn't be top, BLM would be. And MCH and SMN have similar difficulty. Citing difficulty is not a logical fallacy, but strawmanning is, so if you wish to hold ground you should not make guides to the Emerald City

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Originally Posted by FireMage

How can factual statements be intellectually dishonest?

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Opinions ≠ factual statements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Or they could properly balance the Jobs and MCH would only do ~1% less than BRD/DNC

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Why should MCH do less than DNC/BRD? In what world is that ok? MCH doesn't bring any raid benefits to the table...they are literally a pure dps job. If they were within 1% of DNC and BRD there would be ZERO reason to take a MCH into the group.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Precisely, I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating facts

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You're stating poor opinions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Selfish DPS or not is irrelevant. rDPS is your DPS, the only difference is that you need to worry about other people pushing buttons for it, but in a high end setting that's a non factor. MCH being at practically the top would do nothing but spit on every other Job given it's sheer amount of ease of play. It belongs at the bottom with SMN, which again would with proper balance still be viable because ~5% from top to bottom isn't a big deal and would be better balance than we've ever had

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URXvnFnlUeE

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Opinions ≠ factual statements.

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Precisely, I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating facts

Quote:

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Why should MCH do less than DNC/BRD? In what world is that ok? MCH doesn't bring any raid benefits to the table...they are literally a pure dps job. If they were within 1% of DNC and BRD there would be ZERO reason to take a MCH into the group.

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Because MCH is easier than both. That would be its proper tax. 1% is only a factor at the very top of play

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Precisely, I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating facts



Because MCH is easier than both. That would be its proper tax. 1% is only a factor at the very top of play

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DNC and BRD bring raid utility, MCH does not.......making MCH do less dmg than them because its "easier" to play is literally the dumbest idea in the world. Thank God you're not a game developer.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

DNC and BRD bring raid utility, MCH does not.......making MCH do less dmg than them because its "easier" to play is literally the dumbest idea in the world. Thank God you're not a game developer.

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DNC and BRD are also harder than MCH. Being lower satisfies proper balance and being close in potential satisfies viability. Imagine crying "utility" over Curing Waltz/Minne/Paean

By FireMage's royal decree Machinist and Summoner must needs be deleted posthaste.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

DNC and BRD are also harder than MCH. Being lower satisfies proper balance and being close in potential satisfies viability. Imagine crying "utility" over Curing Waltz/Minne/Paean

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The difference between having a dance partner or not having one on my samurai is literally night and day....MCH doesn't bring that to the table. And for the record, neither dnc or brd are even remotely difficult to play. I'd put them in the same difficulty range as MCH, so again, basing damage on "difficulty" is beyond stupid. You don't make a pure dps job do less damage than the support jobs because of "difficulty." MCH gets excluded from PF's significantly as it is. Your idea would outright make them banned from any group because there would be zero reason to ever allow them in any group when you could bring a dnc or brd who not only do more dps but also bring raid utility.

Seriously, do you even play this game? I think I take back what I've said before about you. You're not misinformed, you actually are just a troll. There is no way you actually believe the crap you're spouting out.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

By FireMage's royal decree Machinist and Summoner must needs be deleted posthaste.

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For real, by his trolling logic those two jobs may as well not exist.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

By FireMage's royal decree Machinist and Summoner must needs be deleted posthaste.

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Such hyperbole. Do find where I've posted anything akin to that. Go on, fetch

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The difference between having a dance partner or not having one on my samurai is literally night and day....MCH doesn't bring that to the table. And for the record, neither dnc or brd are even remotely difficult to play. I'd put them in the same difficulty range as MCH, so again, basing damage on "difficulty" is beyond stupid. You don't make a pure dps job do less damage than the support jobs because of "difficulty." MCH gets excluded from PF's significantly as it is. Your idea would outright make them banned from any group because there would be zero reason to ever allow them in any group when you could bring a dnc or brd who not only do more dps but also bring raid utility.

Seriously, do you even play this game? I think I take back what I've said before about you. You're not misinformed, you actually are just a troll. There is no way you actually believe the crap you're spouting out.

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You're saying the sky would be falling when it wouldn't be. The damage potential falloff from best to worst DPS would be ~5% and only ~1% from BRD/DNC to MCH with proper balance. Every non melee would see buffs with proper balance. You accuse me of trolling, yet you're the one strawmanning and putting words in my mouth. Also you wish to cast doubt on whether I play the game, yet your listed character has no fflogs and barely any mounts or minions. Methinks you doth project too much

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Such hyperbole. Do find where I've posted anything akin to that. Go on, fetch



You're saying the sky would be falling when it wouldn't be. The damage potential falloff from best to worst DPS would be ~5% and only ~1% from BRD/DNC to MCH with proper balance. Every non melee would see buffs with proper balance. You accuse me of trolling, yet you're the one strawmanning and putting words in my mouth. Also you wish to cast doubt on whether I play the game, yet your listed character has no fflogs and barely any mounts or minions. Methinks you doth project too much

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I'm stating human nature, especially when it comes to gamers who always gravitate to the stronger options. MCH doing 1% less damage than the support jobs that bring raid buffs will 100% lead to MCH being blacklisted. There would be no logical reason to have a MCH in a party when the dnc and brd would not only do more damage, but give raid buffs. We've literally seen this in the past where in ARR MNK was basically told to go fly a kite as every party did double bard and a drg for the brd buffs and for the piercing debuff with drg and the flex was pretty much always blm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I'm stating human nature, especially when it comes to gamers who always gravitate to the stronger options. MCH doing 1% less damage than the support jobs that bring raid buffs will 100% lead to MCH being blacklisted. There would be no logical reason to have a MCH in a party when the dnc and brd would not only do more damage, but give raid buffs. We've literally seen this in the past where in ARR MNK was basically told to go fly a kite as every party did double bard and a drg for the brd buffs and for the piercing debuff with drg and the flex was pretty much always blm.

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Psst, those raid buffs you keep mentioning IS PART OF DNC AND BRD DAMAGE

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Psst, those raid buffs you keep mentioning IS PART OF DNC AND BRD DAMAGE

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Ah...so you only look at rdps and don't know how to read it.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ah...so you only look at rdps and don't know how to read it.

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rDPS is the correct metric to use, not my fault you have no clue what's being discussed. Be better educated in the future?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Absolutely not. Proper balance would be ~5% from top to bottom of the ladder. What we have currently btw is ~11%. Ease of play absolutely matters, otherwise you are punishing harder Jobs

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This was stated way back at page 6, but I would look to point out that a percentile discrepancy is not the end all, be all.
The highest I peeked at briefly was about 12687.
A 11% difference is about 1395 damage leaving 11,291 rounding down.
That isn't something to be concerned about, as there is no encounter currently where an 11% difference is going to result in a wipe due to lack of DPS.
If it does occur, it is usually due to errors in rotation, poor balance in boss HP (which SE is infamous for), or other factors.
Its exceedingly rare where such a difference will make any difference in end game content at the minimum ilvl.
So don't get so heated about it. It isn't worth it.
Mind you this is with aDPS, as you utilize rDPS and nDPS the numerical difference decreases.

Seriously, the percentile usage can be pretty deceptive because its the same as someone bringing up likelihood of cancer.

If smoking increases the likelihood of lung cancer by 50%, but the actual rate is .000000001%, it may be statically significant but it is meaningfully significant.

tl;dr It is a game, not your life, chill with the flaming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

DNC and BRD are also harder than MCH. Being lower satisfies proper balance and being close in potential satisfies viability. Imagine crying "utility" over Curing Waltz/Minne/Paean

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That is bad balancing.
You don't balance around difficulty ever.
Difficulty is meaningless with competent players.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

rDPS is the correct metric to use, not my fault you have no clue what's being discussed. Be better educated in the future?

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To quote the bearded, bald, enraged man:
"DING DONG"

When looking at tank role, which value should you use, rDPS or aDPS?
The correct answer is... Both!

aDPS shows how the tank scale with buffs.
rDPS shows how much they're taxed (therefore how much rDPS they provide to their teammates)

Using rDPS, PLD is better. Using aDPS WAR is better. But in the case of tanks, who are pure DPS, aDPS is the value to go.
Because PLD is a sustained DPS job, it will not scale much better with raid buff, therefore the tax is lower on them.

Once you understand the value of both rDPS and aDPS, you can apply that to DPS.
You can see that SAM is going bonker with buffs, Black mage is above melees and MCH far below melees who provides rDPS.
If you look at rDPS alone, you'd say to yourself "why should I bring a SAM or BLM?" but then you look how much rDPS they generate and go "ooooh".

But we've explained that pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

That is bad balancing.
You don't balance around difficulty ever.
Difficulty is meaningless with competent players.

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You absolutely do, it is the correct way to do so

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

To quote the bearded, bald, enraged man:
"DING DONG"

When looking at tank role, which value should you use, rDPS or aDPS?
The correct answer is... Both!

aDPS shows how the tank scale with buffs.
rDPS shows how much they're taxed (therefore how much rDPS they provide to their teammates)

Using rDPS, PLD is better. Using aDPS WAR is better. But in the case of tanks, who are pure DPS, aDPS is the value to go.
Because PLD is a sustained DPS job, it will not scale much better with raid buff, therefore the tax is lower on them.

Once you understand the value of both rDPS and aDPS, you can apply that to DPS.
You can see that SAM is going bonker with buffs, Black mage is above melees and MCH far below melees who provides rDPS.
If you look at rDPS alone, you'd say to yourself "why should I bring a SAM or BLM?" but then you look how much rDPS they generate and go "ooooh".

But we've explained that pages ago.

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Tanks are a non factor in this matter, note the subforum. And your entire point is...? rDPS is the correct metric

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Tanks are a non factor in this matter, note the subforum. And your entire point is...? rDPS is the correct metric

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Once you understand the value of both rDPS and aDPS, you can apply that to DPS.
You can see that SAM is going bonker with buffs, Black mage is above melees and MCH far below melees who provides rDPS.
If you look at rDPS alone, you'd say to yourself "why should I bring a SAM or BLM?" but then you look how much rDPS they generate and go "ooooh".

But we've explained that pages ago.

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rDPS doesn't represent the player input but how a party can raise the value of each jobs.
aDPS is important to understand how each jobs benefits from raid buff. If SAM aDPS was lower, then all DPS with raid buff would have a lower rDPS, especially Dancer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leiron

This was stated way back at page 6, but I would look to point out that a percentile discrepancy is not the end all, be all.
The highest I peeked at briefly was about 12687.
A 11% difference is about 1395 damage leaving 11,291 rounding down.
That isn't something to be concerned about, as there is no encounter currently where an 11% difference is going to result in a wipe due to lack of DPS.
If it does occur, it is usually due to errors in rotation, poor balance in boss HP (which SE is infamous for), or other factors.
Its exceedingly rare where such a difference will make any difference in end game content at the minimum ilvl.
So don't get so heated about it. It isn't worth it.
Mind you this is with aDPS, as you utilize rDPS and nDPS the numerical difference decreases.

Seriously, the percentile usage can be pretty deceptive because its the same as someone bringing up likelihood of cancer.

If smoking increases the likelihood of lung cancer by 50%, but the actual rate is .000000001%, it may be statically significant but it is meaningfully significant.

tl;dr It is a game, not your life, chill with the flaming.



That is bad balancing.
You don't balance around difficulty ever.
Difficulty is meaningless with competent players.

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Currently, because they had to nerf the fight that did cause wipes due to poor performance. On launch, every damage per second counted--even the 500 dps that GNB brought passively over WAR counted. You bet your britches a dps is looking at another job almost passively doing 1000 more rDPS than it and worrying that they're trolling their static by continuing to play the job they enjoy.

When it comes to the talk of selfish DPS jobs should do more damage, except a job like MCH since it is easier... the thing to keep in mind is... all jobs are easier** than they used to be. There is no more stance dancing for healers and tanks. There's no more random procs for MCH skills. Mudra casts were cleaned up. SAM has less APM than they used to. No more TP starvation from using AOEs as a physical DPS. Less positionals (looking at you MNK and DRG). And the list goes on and on.

So, lets not talk about "difficulty" of doing DPS in a heavily watered down MMO. What used to make this game difficult has been stripped away. Today's SAM might as well be as difficult as yesterday's MCH.



**Excluding newer jobs since we don't have earlier expansion to compare them to.

Honestly I think DNC is way easier than MCH, having to time your Hypercharge to not clip Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw is far more difficult than pressing Standard Step and Technical Step on cooldown and not clipping Esprit. I specifically play DNC when I feel like having an EZ mode DPS with low effort, much moreso than MCH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

DNC and BRD are also harder than MCH. Being lower satisfies proper balance and being close in potential satisfies viability.

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I'm also gonna also utilize a completely arbitrary way to measure difficulty, Casts Per Minute.
Therefore Redmage should be at the bottom and below MCH in all dps metrics.
In fact, AST should get Verraise now because why not, they are harder using the CPM difficulty methodology.
This cannot be refuted, this is a fact, RDM is slow therefore easy.
Source: I made it up.

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). This could be counterbalanced by the utility that RDM provides, right? The problem is RDM utility is very lackluster right now. This is something that RDM mains have been complainign since 6.0, but every single time we get shot down by the community to the point that devs just don't get the necessary feedback about this job. So PLEASE do not shut us down this time so the devs can look at the job for the first time in nine months and realize there are probems that need to be fixed, because right now, playing RezMachineGoesVrrrr.lol just isn't fun.

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

I decided to play SAM on my alt for my drunk static. That very first week I knew NOTHING on playing SAM besides knowing I wanted to play fast SAM so I melded as much SkS as I could.
That first week playing freestyle SAM I did more damage than I did playing MCH.
It takes a lot of practice on MCH to reach freestyle SAM levels of play.
SAM is easier than MCH lol

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep44222#Sec23
"subjective experience of difficulty depends on multiple cues that are indicative of performance."
Since my performance with SAM was higher than MCH with considerably less effort it makes sense to me that MCH must be the harder class to play.

If you can't tell by now this isn't a serious post. I'm almost certainly improperly using this study to fit my very real example (It still shows that difficulty is subjective lol)
I just fear that if they use "difficulty" as their benchmark to balance dps we will either keep the current trend going(yay the fill slot is always melee /s) or end up with every class doing basically the same amount of damage (boring)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foinhas

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). .

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-> Recently joined
-> RDM OTP
-> Doesn't play high end content
Hmmmmmm.

No.
rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

As for the utility, MCH only brings tacticians which is also brought by DNC and BRD under their own names.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

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Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

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So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

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It's still important to discuss these things as they are important topics that need discussing. We have enough executive function with our prefrontal cortex to ignore him and continue discussing what matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

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This is the point of the thread.

Asking that question and whether or not the justifications still hold weight.

My own thought was that the Devs work within a framework that is outdated (And wasn't very good to begin with.) Our current framework is the simplified Cross Class system, where instead of leveling multiple jobs to complete the kit of one, they took what were effectively the cross class actions considered necessary outside of damage buffs and place them into the "Roles" and then divided the jobs into those roles based on their basic playstyle, aka Melee, Caster, and Marksman (Physical ranged).

In other words, this frame work is the same one we've used since A Realm Reborn, and despite whatever fond memories longstanding players have for ARR and HW, once you expand the scope of class design outside of FF14, this game, at its best, has never been more than acceptable in that regard. (Opinion, mine.)

Every fix, every change, is done within this framework for them to minimize development time so they can keep pushing out content.

The framework has to change, because the changes we're seeing necessitate changes to jobs that break the current framework. It isn't a "right now" solution, it's a "From now and moving on" process. I stated as much in an older post before the shit wading started.

Upping potencies is what is traditionally done, but we've been upping potencies for years and keep arriving at the same problems. I have been, and still am, completely exhausted of seeing the same bandages patch up the bleeding in one area just to see it start up somewhere else. The problem isn't at the top, it's deeper, and until they see it suitable to take the time to change that, we will see this problem continue on, especially as more jobs are added.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

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That is the crux issue right?

The general consensus is the variables that SE uses to tune what you would I guess call "intangibles" (melee vs ranged, aggregate buffs/utility brought, etc) doesnt make sense compared to what we see via 3rd party analysis of job performance + anecdotal/analysis of a DPS's role within the team and within the encounter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

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One of them is an exception that escapes the rule.
And if I can base myself on BLM, then I believe MCH is the exception.
SAM contributes better to the team but if DNC is so high, it's mainly thanks to Samurai.
We need to look at both aDPS and rDPS to understand how a job can scale with buffs and how much they bring to the party.

If we look into rDPS, MCH brings barely anything to increase the party total DPS.
If we look into aDPS, MCH barely benefits from buffs and generates low rDPS.

I do agree it's important to debate things such as the subjectivity of difficulty.
Even if we go in a circle, we polish our view of the game and our arguments.
Which is what I meant by "dunking on troll arguments". None of them are useless.
I mean, thanks to Firemage we're more convinced jobs shouldn't be balanced around job difficulty.
Thanks to the other guy we're convinced that the gap between melees and ranged is cannot be justified anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

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Except that I'm not. Stating facts is not and never will be trolling. This is like dealing with flat-earthers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mithron

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then?

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MCH is a ranged phys, it is taxed due to being a ranged phys which is the easiest DPS role in the game

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Except that I'm not. Stating facts is not and never will be trolling. This is like dealing with flat-earthers

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Nothing you have stated has been remotely factual. You're giving your extremely poor opinions yes. Facts though? No lol. Only a troll would make the illogical arguments you are making creating a realm where MCH and SMN may as well not exist because you think they are "easy" to play (even though as far as I'm concerned BRD and DNC are just as brain dead easy to play as MCH and SMN.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Nothing you have stated has been remotely factual. You're giving your extremely poor opinions yes. Facts though? No lol. Only a troll would make the illogical arguments you are making creating a realm where MCH and SMN may as well not exist because you think they are "easy" to play (even though as far as I'm concerned BRD and DNC are just as brain dead easy to play as MCH and SMN.)

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Whinge as hard as you'd like, but I've done nothing but state facts on the matter. Take your hyperbole and flaming with you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Whinge as hard as you'd like, but I've done nothing but state facts on the matter. Take your hyperbole and flaming with you

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Your opinions are not good. That is a fact. You cannot dispute this. You are dismissed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Whinge as hard as you'd like, but I've done nothing but state ̶f̶a̶c̶t̶s̶ opinions on the matter. Take your hyperbole and flaming with you

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I fixed that for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

One of them is an exception that escapes the rule.
And if I can base myself on BLM, then I believe MCH is the exception.
SAM contributes better to the team but if DNC is so high, it's mainly thanks to Samurai.
We need to look at both aDPS and rDPS to understand how a job can scale with buffs and how much they bring to the party.

If we look into rDPS, MCH brings barely anything to increase the party total DPS.
If we look into aDPS, MCH barely benefits from buffs and generates low rDPS.

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So you're saying SAM is high on rDPS because they get Dancing Partner, but MCH doesn't get it so that's why they're so low. Looking at aDPS too, SAM is #1 and BLM is #2, but MCH is still #7. Why wouldn't MCH benefit as much for raid buffs as other jobs?

I know we're both in agreement MCH is in a rough spot and needs buffs, I'm just asking these things for better clarification on DPS as a whole for not only me but others who read and may not fully grasp rDPS/aDPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Your opinions

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I haven't stated any on the matter. Try again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I haven't stated any on the matter. Try again

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You do not state facts. You state opinions. You are wrong. You cannot dispute my logic. You are dismissed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

You do not state facts. You state opinions. You are wrong. You cannot dispute my logic. You are dismissed.

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Your logic is trying to state that a fact is an opinion. I guess the Earth revolving around the sun is an opinion now. You warrant no further replies for your harassment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Your logic is trying to state that a fact is an opinion. I guess the Earth revolving around the sun is an opinion now. You warrant no further replies for your harassment

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My logic has long surmised that your facts are indeed not facts, but opinions. I am sorry that you equate logic and reality for harassment. I hope you get well soon.