Does Square intend to address Market botting?

I wasn't aware they even had such a specific statement about the matter in the ToS.

Maybe if more people start reminding them about their own rules they'd feel slightly more compelled to enforce things.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wasn't aware they even had such a specific statement about the matter in the ToS.

Maybe if more people start reminding them about their own rules they'd feel slightly more compelled to enforce things.

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at this stage, I wouldnt hold my breath

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Any chance you could share it with us here?

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I could but I would need to redact big portions because SE does not allow to name an shame individuals (but hell freezes over if you call someone a doodoo). Can't be arsed really, some parts are in Japanese too to make sure they get the point. The TLDR is basically telling them WHO is doing it and HOW they are doing it (in detail). Then basically telling them how all that is destroying their ingame economy and dedicated crafting community (inserted links to this forum and reddit). Finally reminding them about their own code against RMT and doing the right thing (code of honour is an important aspect of Japanese culture).

It's all in there. I could not think of a better case excluding their actual data to back it all up. I have no idea how the STF works and how they review cases like this. I don't even know if they only review cases written in Japanese or if they google translate cases written in English. No clue at what rate they review cases. But I guess that's what you get with a zero transparency policy.

If no action will be taken we will have our answer guys (we kind of already do but ok). I'm not here trying to tell anyone what to do, but I myself (as a hardcore crafter/seller since basically 1.0) am done with the market board. I am unsubbing my retainers not holding any gil. I know SE won't even notice but whatever, this is where I draw the line. I am not going to waste my time and compete with automated scripts any longer.

Peace

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

It's all in there. I could not think of a better case excluding their actual data to back it all up. I have no idea how the STF works and how they review cases like this. I don't even know if they only review cases written in Japanese or if they google translate cases written in English. No clue at what rate they review cases. But I guess that's what you get with a zero transparency policy.

If no action will be taken we will have our answer guys (we kind of already do but ok). I'm not here trying to tell anyone what to do, but I myself (as a hardcore crafter/seller since basically 1.0) am done with the market board. I am unsubbing my retainers not holding any gil. I know SE won't even notice but whatever, this is where I draw the line. I am not going to waste my time and compete with automated scripts any longer.

Peace

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Thanks Prrringles.

I am at that stage as well. unlike some who comment, who seem to feel the ONLY reason crafters complain is because it cuts into their "massive profits", one in particular we all know very well from their comments, I view the market as my version of 'pvp' because in theory, you are trying to outcompete other PLAYERS. the gil is secondary. once player who bot can compete, just like in pvp, it takes anything out of it since the cheaters are prevailing. at least in pvp they usually get banned... possibly

being told that you are only after gil and if you were a real crafter to find another market where there arent bots (hard to do anymore) is like telling an F1 driver that competing in go-cart races is the same as F1. its insulting, and is just burying their head in the sand about the problem.. or being part of the problem all together.

37 pages to this thread, looks like I'm not the only one noticing the rampant rise of price bots since last patch. Update your price on most i510 items and it gets undercut within a min or two. Like many others, I now simply find the bottom or set the margin super low. I guess if this is the free market Invisible Hand then so be it. There isn't anything expensive to buy in game, housing's not doing much for inflation.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

being told that you are only after gil and if you were a real crafter to find another market where there arent bots (hard to do anymore) is like telling an F1 driver that competing in go-cart races is the same as F1. its insulting, and is just burying their head in the sand about the problem.. or being part of the problem all together.

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After the last patch, where retainers get much more of the things crafter make, there isn't another market, they are basically all gone, because the players sell this stuff for scraps. I have no idea why they send retainers on Quick Explorations, since the few items that really give you high prices are very rare (ask me, I have 36 lvl 80 retainers with Neo-Ishgardian HQ gear + 9 that just passed 63). What they should have done was to add everything not crafted or sold by vendors to the retainer list, that would make the retainers more valuable, AND keep the MB from overflooding with crafted items.

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

I have no idea how the STF works and how they review cases like this. I don't even know if they only review cases written in Japanese or if they google translate cases written in English. No clue at what rate they review cases. But I guess that's what you get with a zero transparency policy.

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I think the big problem is that many Japanese people don't understand English very well (have a look at the crazy names some things get in Japan, when they try to give them catching English names) and prefer to rather skip reading English post, so not to missunderstand and make a blunder of themselves when they reply (loosing face and all that stuff).

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

I think the big problem is that many Japanese people don't understand English very well (have a look at the crazy names some things get in Japan, when they try to give them catching English names) and prefer to rather skip reading English post, so not to missunderstand and make a blunder of themselves when they reply (loosing face and all that stuff).

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They are digging their own grave. You can't let a would to fester cos eventually you will have to cut off the leg. I would just retire your retainers man. Do something nice with the money you will save. This game is not worth it anymore imo.

I remember how taboo it was to use bots in one of my previous private server MMO I played ( I forgot which ).
Their anti-bot measure was to implement a captcha test in 'somewhat' random interval, normally it pops once between 10m to 120m. They give players 3 chances to input the right answer (the captcha answer randomizes itself every failure/time running out) before the game teleports the said 'player' to a random map while also branding them with a very debilitating debuff for 30m (i.e. All stats -90%, Move speed -90%). This debuff gets even worse if the said 'player' continues to fail more and more of those captcha tests regardless whether their previous debuff has ran out or not. The test will also reward human players for answering correctly with temporary buff, which was pretty nice imho. The game was bot-free as well, or at least very low amount that it never make any difference to the community as a whole.

"But what if players are inside dungeon?"
As far as I can remember, that game never shoves captcha test to players inside dungeon. The test pops whenever players are doing something outside dungeon area (killing mobs, gathering, fishing, etc).

It would be nice (?) if something similar can be implemented in this game because I've only begun to notice these gathering/market bots right after I wanted a small break from combat classes and diving into world of gathering & crafting :(

A great approach to be able to deal with bots would be to allow open world pvp, so that players could simply hunt bots down for a sport, which would not only make things alot harder for them, it would also force them to go for more drastic measures like cheating openly, which usually gets noticed a GMs rather easily.

But since FFXIV's EU/US community is as herbivore as it can get, i highly doubt we will ever see something like that.

I'm sitting here right now watching two bots undercut themselves by 1 gil over and over on rings of crafting. It's hilarious and sad because i'm in the middle not being able to sell a damn thing because i'm being undercut in seconds. the frustration is actually quite real. and a STF report has been sent for all the good it will probably too.

The kicker? One player is in topmast, the other is in Kholusia NOWHERE NEAR A BELL!

I mean for gods sake how much more obvious can the cheating get here?

As a legit crafter who basically is finding it impossible to sell a single damn high end item this is all kinds of stupid. Bout to just flood the market with super cheap Aesthete gear and say screw it. Any gil is better than none but this is ridiculous

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat

I'm sitting here right now watching two bots undercut themselves by 1 gil over and over on rings of crafting. It's hilarious and sad because i'm in the middle not being able to sell a damn thing because i'm being undercut in seconds. the frustration is actually quite real. and a STF report has been sent for all the good it will probably too.

The kicker? One player is in topmast, the other is in Kholusia NOWHERE NEAR A BELL!

As a legit crafter who basically is finding it impossible to sell a single damn high end item this is all kinds of stupid. Bout to just flood the market with super cheap Aesthete gear and say screw it. Any gil is better than none but this is ridiculous

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according to some, legit crafters apparently only care because we are exceedingly greedy.

but, how can someone change prices not near a bell? its easy, the crafter has an Fc with various... shall we say..members (usually below 30 that live by retainer bells) they are the bot marketers. the crafter can be anywhere and the bots just cycle in and out changing prices.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

according to some, legit crafters apparently only care because we are exceedingly greedy.

but, how can someone change prices not near a bell? its easy, the crafter has an Fc with various... shall we say..members (usually below 30 that live by retainer bells) they are the bot marketers. the crafter can be anywhere and the bots just cycle in and out changing prices.

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Duh me, I should have thought of that.

Honestly either way though I just like selling things cheap anyway because the inflation on Bryn is stupid. I mean 300K for a Ase ring of crafting? At that point it's the crafters paradox, you need to craft to make money, but by the time you've made the money you pretty much can craft it yourself because it's cheaper AND easier. More so if you have a few friends like me who help you with the mats.

Of course we can probably thank the bots for some of that inflation too I imagine, but the fact the in game economy is pretty much busted for anyone trying to actually use it is... yeah... frustrating is the most diplomatic word i can use. Anything else would get me a forum ban.

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat

...Bout to just flood the market with super cheap Aesthete gear and say screw it. Any gil is better than none but this is ridiculous

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All i can say is: DO IT. Sell any item you craft with about 10-20k profit. You will still rake in millions this way. Just prepare to craft more because everything will sell fast. Bots won't go below a certain point. You will even have other crafters trying to buy you out, but just keep spamming those cheap items, you will be king/queen of the MB. Just don't expect any friend requests :p

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

All i can say is: DO IT. Sell any item you craft with about 10-20k profit. You will still rake in millions this way. Just prepare to craft more because everything will sell fast. Bots won't go below a certain point. You will even have other crafters trying to buy you out, but just keep spamming those cheap items, you will be king/queen of the MB. Just don't expect any friend requests :p

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So far i've got the bots down from 300K to 99K, they're persistent. Though I just realized my reports probably wont do much good since it's reporting the name of the crafter, not the name of the character that actually owns these retainer bots. but such is life. Least I get to see how far i can take this before moving on to make something else.

Let's be real here. If there is a player who defends bots or says oh well. . . Than they either aren't affected and should stfu or they use bots themselves.

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat

So far i've got the bots down from 300K to 99K, they're persistent. Though I just realized my reports probably wont do much good since it's reporting the name of the crafter, not the name of the character that actually owns these retainer bots. but such is life. Least I get to see how far i can take this before moving on to make something else.

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Just keep going until they stop undercutting. Even if you make only a small profit. Once you reach that point, only you will make profit.

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Originally Posted by Xoto

Let's be real here. If there is a player who defends bots or says oh well. . . Than they either aren't affected and should stfu or they use bots themselves.

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dont worry Xoto, we have done that. they pretty much seem to be of the opinion that SE is doing all it can, and that any crafter who complains is just greedy

seems to be a bit misplaced since the sole purpose of using a bot is greed in the first place, generally most non cheating crafters just want a fair playing field and to be useful for what they produce.

Bots are real and are preventing the enjoyment of aspects of the game. For those who go on these threads and make light of the problem... nixie and joy.... dont tell people how they should enjoy the game. And if you haven't been affected than this isn't the thread for you. We are all looking for a solution. The only way for that to happen is to make sure the developers know its affecting a portion of their player base.

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Originally Posted by Xoto

The only way for that to happen is to make sure the developers know its affecting a portion of their player base.

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Why do you assume they don't know? Because they haven't waved a magic wand yet that turns all the cheaters into honest players with positive ethics and integrity?

Trust me, they know.

I'm not trying to telling you how to play. I'm pointing out that botting is not something that is going to disappear. No matter how hard SE and other game development companies try to stop bot activity, the bot programs are not going to go away as long as people like to cheat.

I used to be one of those who raged and moaned over the existence of bots. It didn't do anything except make me more miserable.

I decided I'm not going to let it bother me anymore. If a bot moves in on what I'm selling, I switch to other stuff. If I have witnessed what I believe is undeniable proof that someone is botting, I will report that character and what I have observed.

A lot of the examples of bot activity I've seen in this thread are things that any player with enough time on their hands can do for themselves with an extra account to move items to. Other examples seem to be things more likely accomplished with the use of 3rd party mods similar to the auction house add-ons that WoW players have access to, not by bot programs or other form of automation. Still against ToS but SE has their don't ask don't tell policy and they seem disinclined to do anything about them unless they disrupt competitive balance, as we saw with the changes made after the last Ultimate race.

My stance will always be that if you want to get rid of the bots and RMT, get rid of the players who want to cheat in the first place. Without the cheaters, those things would quickly die due to the lack of customers. People need to stop making excuses for the cheaters. They need to stop associating with the cheaters.

Do what you feel you need to do.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why do you assume they don't know? Because they haven't waved a magic wand yet that turns all the cheaters into honest players with positive ethics and integrity?

Trust me, they know.

I'm not trying to telling you how to play. I'm pointing out that botting is not something that is going to disappear. No matter how hard SE and other game development companies try to stop bot activity, the bot programs are not going to go away as long as people like to cheat.

I used to be one of those who raged and moaned over the existence of bots. It didn't do anything except make me more miserable.

I decided I'm not going to let it bother me anymore. If a bot moves in on what I'm selling, I switch to other stuff. If I have witnessed what I believe is undeniable proof that someone is botting, I will report that character and what I have observed.

A lot of the examples of bot activity I've seen in this thread are things that any player with enough time on their hands can do for themselves with an extra account to move items to. Other examples seem to be things more likely accomplished with the use of 3rd party mods similar to the auction house add-ons that WoW players have access to, not by bot programs or other form of automation. Still against ToS but SE has their don't ask don't tell policy and they seem disinclined to do anything about them unless they disrupt competitive balance, as we saw with the changes made after the last Ultimate race.

My stance will always be that if you want to get rid of the bots and RMT, get rid of the players who want to cheat in the first place. Without the cheaters, those things would quickly die due to the lack of customers. People need to stop making excuses for the cheaters. They need to stop associating with the cheaters.

Do what you feel you need to do.

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Any thing that isn't a complaint promotes passive compliance when it comes to this topic. The more complaints there are on these threads the more likely SE will do something. Hopefully
Bring as much attention to this subject on your servers as possible and hopefully more will be done. Never give up the fight against bots.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why do you assume they don't know? Because they haven't waved a magic wand yet that turns all the cheaters into honest players with positive ethics and integrity?

Trust me, they know.

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I am not sure how you can say with any certainty that "they know"

the RMT networks are operating still, and if they arent capable of tracing the transfers and banning the recipients, then what can they do? I completely agree, penalize the cheaters, fully. starting with temp bans and working up to permanent. surely tracing teh gil since it is going to be large amounts, must be within their ability... or is it?

the problem they have is, they do nothing... to anyone.. except obvious targets.

so I would hesitate to assume that they know, because their actions speak volumes to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Yshtola

You can kick and scream all you want my lala, but do know the little personal crusade you have against other players can, without any ambiguous interpretation, fall under two prohibited behaviors.

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Sounds like someone wants to encourage RMT.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I am not sure how you can say with any certainty that "they know"

the RMT networks are operating still, and if they arent capable of tracing the transfers and banning the recipients, then what can they do? I completely agree, penalize the cheaters, fully. starting with temp bans and working up to permanent. surely tracing teh gil since it is going to be large amounts, must be within their ability... or is it?

the problem they have is, they do nothing... to anyone.. except obvious targets.

so I would hesitate to assume that they know, because their actions speak volumes to the contrary.

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They know, but I'm now 50-50 on "they can't do anything about it at the source with Legal" or "they don't want to do anything about it at the source with Legal".

End of the day, it will take lawsuit/police action at the source to end RMT, and nothing more nor less.

It's simple. All they have to do is ban the botting circles. We have already exposed all those circles for them. Once they are gone it will take "some time" for them to get back up and running. Then they get banned again. If even WE can totally expose them, SE would certainly be able to confirm it and take action against them.

-THEY JUST DONT CARE- it's obvious.

Just undercut them out of business. I have done this and totally shut them down on the higher lvl items and glamour. The only reason I stopped is because I don't have the energy to keep crafting because I value my personal time. Bots can keep going forever since it's all automated and costs them zero personal time. So anyway, if you have the stomach for it, just undercut them and they will stop posting items. But this needs to be done on every server otherwise they will still make gil. It's probably the same band of *bleep* running all the circles anyways.

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

It's simple. All they have to do is ban the botting circles. We have already exposed all those circles for them. Once they are gone it will take "some time" for them to get back up and running. Then they get banned again. If even WE can totally expose them, SE would certainly be able to confirm it and take action against them.

-THEY JUST DONT CARE- it's obvious.

Just undercut them out of business. I have done this and totally shut them down on the higher lvl items and glamour. The only reason I stopped is because I don't have the energy to keep crafting because I value my personal time. Bots can keep going forever since it's all automated and costs them zero personal time. So anyway, if you have the stomach for it, just undercut them and they will stop posting items. But this needs to be done on every server otherwise they will still make gil. It's probably the same band of *bleep* running all the circles anyways.

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yeah I experimented with that and it works, but unless I dont want to actually play, its impossible to do long term. and I dont want to run multiple accounts just to be able to put up enough items to put them out of business. for that you need a team effort with a Fc backing you to buy the tome items for you and then just post everything below their basement price set. On Zalera right now, seems to be around 58k on Exarchic items. had about 40 things up and sold them in less time than it took to craft them.

since the bots buy -everything- even if they drop their bottom price it quickly starts chewing into their profits, not that I think they consider manufacturing costs, but it also stops the RMT importers to some degree. but it took hours to craft all that and rather tiring lol.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

yeah I experimented with that and it works, but unless I dont want to actually play, its impossible to do long term. and I dont want to run multiple accounts just to be able to put up enough items to put them out of business. for that you need a team effort with a Fc backing you to buy the tome items for you and then just post everything below their basement price set. On Zalera right now, seems to be around 58k on Exarchic items. had about 40 things up and sold them in less time than it took to craft them.

since the bots buy -everything- even if they drop their bottom price it quickly starts chewing into their profits, not that I think they consider manufacturing costs, but it also stops the RMT importers to some degree. but it took hours to craft all that and rather tiring lol.

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That is exactly why I just quit crafting in batches. I craft the odd glamour item here and there if I can get the leather cheap or maybe flip a mount once in a while but that's it. Can't be bothered anymore and I can't blame others for quitting. SE just took all the fun out of crafting with their "Ishguard screw up" and not taking on the bots.

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

That is exactly why I just quit crafting in batches. I craft the odd glamour item here and there if I can get the leather cheap or maybe flip a mount once in a while but that's it. Can't be bothered anymore and I can't blame others for quitting. SE just took all the fun out of crafting with their "Ishguard screw up" and not taking on the bots.

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I agree. pretty much that portion of the game is pointless to me, much the same as pvp (which never interested me anyway) mind you, part of the crafting that issue that bothers me more now are the "botting will always exist so just accept it" crowd. who will remain silent because "its not worth worrying over". I agree its not worth losing focus on everything else over, but cheating should always be punished and pushed against, and I think companies should always do more than give it lip service.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I agree. pretty much that portion of the game is pointless to me, much the same as pvp (which never interested me anyway) mind you, part of the crafting that issue that bothers me more now are the "botting will always exist so just accept it" crowd. who will remain silent because "its not worth worrying over". I agree its not worth losing focus on everything else over, but cheating should always be punished and pushed against, and I think companies should always do more than give it lip service.

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Well, bots only "exist" because SE lets them exist. Their passive stance baffles me. We (the players) can only do so much and it is not "our" job to fix this problem. SE should be keeping their streets clean but instead choose the easy way out and stay silent. Every day I see groups of bots teleporting through the world, killing things while being underground. How the hell do they allow that? I'm not a programmer but surely there must be a line of code that says "this action or pathing is illegal" triggering an instant disconnect or ban. Anyway..we all sound like broken records in here..it's kind of sad. Frankly I don't know what else we can do other than to accept the *bleep* state of the game. Apparently SE thinks it's all nice and dandy so yeah...why bother.

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

It's simple. All they have to do is ban the botting circles. We have already exposed all those circles for them. Once they are gone it will take "some time" for them to get back up and running. Then they get banned again. If even WE can totally expose them, SE would certainly be able to confirm it and take action against them.

-THEY JUST DONT CARE- it's obvious.

Just undercut them out of business. I have done this and totally shut them down on the higher lvl items and glamour. The only reason I stopped is because I don't have the energy to keep crafting because I value my personal time. Bots can keep going forever since it's all automated and costs them zero personal time. So anyway, if you have the stomach for it, just undercut them and they will stop posting items. But this needs to be done on every server otherwise they will still make gil. It's probably the same band of *bleep* running all the circles anyways.

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Then it's worse than that. SE then is part of the problem -- and then it's clear that there are people within SE, and that includes people in charge of the community, who accept and SUPPORT RMT and similar behavior.

(Hint: North America.)

At that point, it isn't that they don't care -- it is actually against some sections of the community for them to care.

Welp, I just found a huge botting operation on my server that's farming Zonureskin maps.

There's a full party of eight bots led by a tank that's constantly hopping between ShB zones and doing maps. These bots are further fueled by mule accounts that constantly buy/mail zonureskin maps to them on a regular basis, as I noticed some suspicious mass-buyouts of zonureskin maps on various servers, and tracing the players in question always led me to some barebones character that was standing next to a post moogle.

I'd like to hope that the sheer number of bots operating in tandem would make the illicit activity especially obvious to the STF, but considering their track record...

SE needs to get serious about the game's infractions.

The EULA needs to be updated to promote healthy play vs. allowing "botting/cheating". And if caught you will be subject to suspension or permaban. This is the only way you will push these slimy people from capitalizing on SE's products.

If SE took the little nugget, "Hey, we pay for the development of the game, the servers and network infrastructure, support, and marketing of this game....but these a-holes are stealing from us by destroying the experience of our product?"

Wake up SE! These slime bags are PROFITTING on your intellectual property by subverting one of it's aspects, which is GIL (in game currency). I highly doubt the people that does this "care" about the story, making friendships, contributing to the game's multiplayer aspects, or simply engaging at all. If SE would realize the game to them is simply another vehicle to produce capital for a false enterprise.

In an AMERICAN corporate environment, this would be SQUASHED insanely fast or the false enterprise would be purchased to be destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Wrestlefire769

Then it's worse than that. SE then is part of the problem -- and then it's clear that there are people within SE, and that includes people in charge of the community, who accept and SUPPORT RMT and similar behavior.

(Hint: North America.)

At that point, it isn't that they don't care -- it is actually against some sections of the community for them to care.

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I wonder if they actually think the prices were too high, and then decided that the bots could fix that problem for them. If you look at the changes done to the retainer drops in patch 5.4 you'll see that it was mostly changed into craftable items being added to the retainer drops. Have a look at some of the stuff that is sold cheap on the MB and check the crafters name (bottom left). In most cases there won't be any name there, meaning the item was a drop. Then check what's for sale and check the items as you get higher in price. You'll have to go a long, long, way up there before you find an item that was actually crafted by a player (or bot). The thing is SE, no one will craft Alexander statues and the likes for 250 gil, no one!

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

SE needs to get serious about the game's infractions.

The EULA needs to be updated to promote healthy play vs. allowing "botting/cheating". And if caught you will be subject to suspension or permaban. This is the only way you will push these slimy people from capitalizing on SE's products.

If SE took the little nugget, "Hey, we pay for the development of the game, the servers and network infrastructure, support, and marketing of this game....but these a-holes are stealing from us by destroying the experience of our product?"

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This assumes, end of the day, they WANT to do it. I believe, as I have said, there are Square-Enix employees that are certainly in bed with account sellers, gil sellers, etc. I do not believe many of them are in the JP section, mind you.

You also have to start asking the question as to whether this company has the balls to actually enforce the ownership of it's materials. This is as much counterfeiting SE property as if someone mass-produced a bunch of Squall swords and sold those online.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Wake up SE! These slime bags are PROFITTING on your intellectual property by subverting one of it's aspects, which is GIL (in game currency). I highly doubt the people that does this "care" about the story, making friendships, contributing to the game's multiplayer aspects, or simply engaging at all. If SE would realize the game to them is simply another vehicle to produce capital for a false enterprise.

In an AMERICAN corporate environment, this would be SQUASHED insanely fast or the false enterprise would be purchased to be destroyed.

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Oh no. If anything, an AMERICAN corporate environment would demand this level of cheating and the like as a precondition of play.

Which see Final Fantasy XI for many, many years.

so I have decided on a new strategy.

its no longer about selling, its to find the basement and post items just above that so that the bots make a minimal amount of gil. since they must buy all their crafting materials, their cost to produce is far higher than mine. so my idea is all about dragging them down so low that eventually, they will have to reconsider a strategy... or, they buy my things. either way, works for me.

Most real people will see a price under 60k and think "pfft, obviously an abberation, let it sell and I'll just wait it out" if they even check at all. but the bots, the bots HAVE to undercut, so 58,999 they go. and once there is more than one bot, the price stays down there

I know, unlikely to make any crafter friends, but right now, more interested in ruining income of the people who arent playing anyway

The unfortunate thing is some botters have already realized this tactic actually works against them and have secondary accounts that constantly run trusts to farm allegory mats, thereby reducing their production costs to zero.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The unfortunate thing is some botters have already realized this tactic actually works against them and have secondary accounts that constantly run trusts to farm allegory mats, thereby reducing their production costs to zero.

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I generally check who has bought what, and pricing of materials. and they are all still buying things like dolomite, solstice etc. so they do still have costs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

..since they must buy all their crafting materials, their cost to produce is far higher than mine.

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I have to disagree here. Technically bots have zero costs. Yes, they buy materials off the market board but with gil they made running a script. There is no human behind the screen clicking buttons and crafting for hours. Your cost is actually far higher than theirs since you are there physically clicking buttons instead of having some other quality time.

The reason they have a bottom set is because they run a business -- selling gil. If they still undercut you, they are making enough profit to keep the business running (trust me). Don't forget that they are active on basically every server selling ALL items lvl 50 and over. While you can slow their business down on Zalera (how many items do you actually sell?) it's business as usual on the other servers. Think about that before you waste more time on them. Even without selling the items you screw them on they are probably still making millions of gil on items lvl 50 - 79.

EDIT: Not trying to bash you by the way. I'm just trying to warn you about how little impact you will have on their operations. Undercut them for personal profits by all means, but don't think it will hurt them in any way. They don't even know you are undercutting them anyway because they don't physically play.

The -ONLY- way to screw them over really good is by having at least one person on every server dumping items all day long below their buttom price. And trust me, literally no one in his/her right mind can keep that up for items lvl 50 and up.

Lost cause boys. Either SE steps in or none of this will ever go away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prrringles

The reason they have a bottom set is because they run a business -- selling gil. If they still undercut you, they are making enough profit to keep the business running (trust me). Don't forget that they are active on basically every server selling ALL items lvl 50 and over. While you can slow their business down on Zalera (how many items do you actually sell?) it's business as usual on the other servers. Think about that before you waste more time on them. Even without selling the items you screw them on they are probably still making millions of gil on items lvl 50 - 79.

EDIT: Not trying to bash you by the way. I'm just trying to warn you about how little impact you will have on their operations. Undercut them for personal profits by all means, but don't think it will hurt them in any way. They don't even know you are undercutting them anyway because they don't physically play.

The -ONLY- way to screw them over really good is by having at least one person on every server dumping items all day long below their buttom price. And trust me, literally no one in his/her right mind can keep that up for items lvl 50 and up.

Lost cause boys. Either SE steps in or none of this will ever go away.

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well, after spending a good portion of my day doing nothing but crafting, yes, you are right. I sold 40 things but its unsustainable and only a crazy person would ever hope of competing against them. and no, I didnt feel bashed at all, I had not actually considered the wider implications, but you make a very valid point. the RMT importers who bring in a stack of goods from a single crafter on a central world are proof of this. Jojoya and his friends win I suppose. it will continue and SE will continue do nothing but cover their ears and loudly exclaim in Japanese "I cant heeeear you"

Just as a thought after what you wrote I took a look at lower level gear and the penetrate very deeply. so, my little experiemnt, ended up very much proving your point. I wouldnt have even raised a programmed eyebrow

thank you. looks like crafting is done.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

Jojoya and his friends win I suppose. .

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They aren't my friends and you really need to stop stating that they are.

I gave you a dose of reality based on my years of MMO experience. You thought you knew better. Now you understand why I've stopped obsessing over bots.

Again, absolutely report anyone if you've come across undeniable proof that they are botting or cheating in some way. I still do.

But don't let their existence get to you because it's just a game. It's not worth it..