How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

A person who doesnt bother to improve his gameplay will not magically become better for having a parser, similar on how people dont play tanks despite all the bonus they keep putting for playing as one including faster queues, exlusive mounts, role bonus etc

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But that person is easier to spot with that and knows that the others will see the bad performance more clearly.
And thus easier subject to Vote Dismissal.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

A person who doesnt bother to improve his gameplay will not magically become better for having a parser, similar on how people dont play tanks despite all the bonus they keep putting for playing as one including faster queues, exlusive mounts, role bonus etc

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Some people want always to improve their gameplay, even if they know they are close to the perfection.
Some people will stop to improve when they think they are "good enough"
Some people will never try to improve themselves.

BUT there is also people that deny needing to improve their gameplay until they see that they get bad results. But for this, you need to show them tools they cant deny. Like a Parser.

In the case sigma-astra says to us. Maybe just saying the monk this fact would make him work his gameplay... Maybe he will also consider you troll him or is just an angry guy that dont says all the truth... With a parser in his own hand, he cant say you did erase anything to cheat on the reality or you did make a false screenshot. He will see it on one fight... another... another... And will be force to admit he is a matter.
Then he will have choice : no care... or lets work on this.

This shit is still going, damn. I feel like this topic got too deep into the toxicity subject. The reality is as a PC player I would never play this game on ps4 because there is no parsing, parsing makes the game fun in a game where running the same old reskinned boring fucking content over and over and over is the only gameplay. Instead of the game being a mindless grind it now becomes a challenge to improve myself and it is fun to see my numbers go up. I find it so weird people looking down on it like it's "e-peen waving". Have you guys never enjoyed the experience of becoming better at something or self improvement. Parsing is fun first and for most. It's fun improving, It's fun competing, it's fun seeing where i stand in rankings(not that good btw still fun), it turns those awful runs filled with people who can't tell up from down into a screenshot with a story that you can laugh about. It literally makes every aspect of the game more enjoyable to parse. Poor ps4 players all I'm saying.

Also this is the only game I've seen where people coddle you for being bad at the game, literally any other online game and you'd be laughed out of here, but I digress the toxicity issue is a joke. We need to go back in time, the community we fostered is an abomination.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

But that person is easier to spot with that and knows that the others will see the bad performance more clearly.
And thus easier subject to Vote Dismissal.

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I think SE will want to minimize the amount of Vote Dismissal for their game as players are more likely to unsub over being vote dismissed constantly, since it'll be the same problematic people. On the other hand Sigma-Astra, did you manage to finish the dungeon with the MNK or did you guys vote abandon? I think as long as you are about to finish the dg then all is well, it might take a lil longer but thats the attitude SE has with FFXIV. Its not hardcore content so there isn't really an expectation on player performance

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Originally Posted by greytonberry

I feel like this topic got too deep into the toxicity subject.

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Those threads usually go there and get stuck on this, nothing new.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I think SE will want to minimize the amount of Vote Dismissal for their game as players are more likely to unsub over being vote dismissed constantly, since it'll be the same problematic people. On the other hand Sigma-Astra, did you manage to finish the dungeon with the MNK or did you guys vote abandon? I think as long as you are about to finish the dg then all is well, it might take a lil longer but thats the attitude SE has with FFXIV. Its not hardcore content so there isn't really an expectation on player performance

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Which is fine for dungeon content because it's trivial. That philosophy can easily have the opposite effect though, especially in harder content. Better players become far less willing to join pugs and help people get their clears because they don't want to deal with players who can't be bothered to improve yet expect everyone else to put in the work for them.

When I play my BRD, or another dps, I'm always looking at ways to make my damage go up. I examine my skills and try to come up with new rotations that will increase my dps. I don't need a parser to know if my damage is going up or not, since I know for a fact that it is due to the efficiency increase. I also don't need one to see if another player is performing poorly. Play the game enough and it's pretty clear most of the time.

I'm usually on the fence about parsers though as I don't like them, but do see the usefulness of them. However the more I see people try to give their reasons for having them, the more I lean to not wanting them at all. Your arguements aren't helping your case, they are hurting it.

To get good damage you need:

A: Learn the proper rotation and repeat it until it becomes muscle memory(if you need to think on any moment you didnt nail it yet)---> you can do this on a dummy for example
B: Learn the mechanics of the encounter to avoid losing dps due to gimmicks or even dieing--->Watch videos or just face the enemy as long as its needed

With those 2 perfectly clear (easier said than done, it takes time) you are already reaching a high level competence of your job and you should be fine on almost any content but the most demanding ones. Even then, there are more ways to further improve:

A: Learn what can you push with your ping and skill speed(like double weaving)
B: Customize your gear to get the best bang of your bucket stat pool
C: Coordinate with your team while using raid buffs

Just to mention a few.

None need a parser but to confirm what you should know already, only the most hardcore might get a small benefit by using a parser optimizating their jobs to the very limit but thats a tiny minority of the players and even on them, the gain is really minor

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

To get good damage you need:

A: Learn the proper rotation and repeat it until it becomes muscle memory---> you can do this on a dummy for example
B: Learn the mechanics of the encounter to avoid losing dps due to gimmicks or even dieing--->Watch videos or just face the enemy as long as its needed

With those 2 perfectly clear (easier said than done, it takes time) you are already reaching a high level competence of your job and you should be fine on almost any content but the most demanding ones. Even then, there are more ways to further improve:

A: Learn what can you push with your ping and skill speed(like double weaving)
B: Customize your gear to get the best bang of your bucket stat pool
C: Coordinate with your team while using raid buffs

Just to mention a few.
None need a parser but to confirm what you should know already, only the most hardcore might get a small benefit by using a parser optimizating their jobs to the limit but thats a tiny minority of the players and the gain is really minor

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Just butting in... How do you think the best rotations are found?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Just butting in... How do you think the best rotations are found?

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Trial and error and if you feel lazy you can simply search on internet for people who actually bothered to do so and kindly posted their findings

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Trial and error and if you feel lazy you can simply search on internet for people who actually bothered to do so and kindly posted their findings

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and... those people are theorycrafter. who works with mathematics ... AND parsers... yes. hard to believe but theorycraft needs some parsing.

like top world people are using parsers... if the best players of the games uses it to perfect their gameplay...

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Trial and error and if you feel lazy you can simply search on internet for people who actually bothered to do so and kindly posted their findings

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How do you think they got the answers to show you online?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

How do you think they got the answers to show you online?

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Why by adding up all the info in their battle log of course!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

about theorycrafter : FFXIV doesnt show your %chance of getting a critic. You dont know how much you have with 0 in crit score, or with 2000 in. so... before doing mathematics (because bards get proc due to critical if it didnt change with SB), they have to being able to calculate how much critical for 1%... => spamming skills and parse this to have an idea. then repeat with another, and another, AND another crit score, to define (not perfectly but close to it) the crit score => X% crit.

Before SB, we had miss chance depending again on a secundary stat. accuracy. Too much acc => lost stat. not enough => chance to miss. So, knwing the hard cap (THE exact score of accuracy to have 0 miss chance) was mandatory to optimize stuff. How? doing the fights, and then, reading how much miss, then there was some people collecting all data from numerous players, to have the exact score.

And yes, no more accuracy, but... we need it for critical... it changes each expansion.
So, before saying a parser is useless, try to do all those guides without.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

have you ever played WoW? unless you want the FF14 community to turn toxic the last thing this game needs is a dps meter

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Funny thing about WoW...the official stance by Blizzard (last I heard) was that they don't want to mandate the use of damage meters or parsers either, which is why they've never offered one that is built into the game itself.

The main difference is that they officially allow and support players creating mods that tap into their API, and one possible mod that can be created is the parser.

So while the officially allow it, they are like SE in that they don't want to require players to use it, and as such have never added an official Blizzard-crated parser.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

When I play my BRD, or another dps, I'm always looking at ways to make my damage go up. I examine my skills and try to come up with new rotations that will increase my dps. I don't need a parser to know if my damage is going up or not, since I know for a fact that it is due to the efficiency increase. I also don't need one to see if another player is performing poorly. Play the game enough and it's pretty clear most of the time.

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Question though: how do you know you're being any more or less efficient by simply "coming up with new rotations", or that you're increasing your DPS by "coming up with new rotations", without quantifiable proof that such is the case? Feelycrafts aren't quantifiable, so you can't definitively say "this is better/worse than that" with no hard evidence of it.

Increasing personal efficiency takes more than just moving your rotation around. Especially on a job like BRD. Coming from a BRD main that optimizes the job.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Trial and error and if you feel lazy you can simply search on internet for people who actually bothered to do so and kindly posted their findings

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And where does that trial and error come from? Theory crafting on target dummies for hours while running a parse to gauge the difference in damage. Every single rotation video on Youtube is someone who spent time with ACT running and compared their damage with other players. Take parsers away and you're literally throwing darts at a board and hoping something sticks.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And where does that trial and error come from? Theory crafting on target dummies for hours while running a parse to gauge the difference in damage. Every single rotation video on Youtube is someone who spent time with ACT running and compared their damage with other players. Take parsers away and you're literally throwing darts at a board and hoping something sticks.

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Actually a lot of the time this work is done with simulators, as they can do a full encounter's worth of combat in a fraction of the time without human error to alter the results. Not saying work isn't also done by humans with parsers, just merely stating they are not the sole source of information for theory crafters.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

have you ever played WoW? unless you want the FF14 community to turn toxic the last thing this game needs is a dps meter

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Since someone quoted it, I wanna mention something here too.

You think Parsing is why WoW is "toxic" compared to FFXIV? I'd argue at this point, nobody outside of mythic raiding gives a care what your dps is. They only care about your item level, straight up.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Since someone quoted it, I wanna mention something here too.

You think Parsing is why WoW is "toxic" compared to FFXIV? I'd argue at this point, nobody outside of mythic raiding gives a care what your dps is. They only care about your item level, straight up.

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People get called out on their dps in LFR all the time. Never really results in a kick but its linked and people ridicule each other fairly regularly. Normal and Heroic raids as well, if anything Mythic is much less toxic. M+ dungeons your IO score trumps ilvl though they still care about your dps since trash pulling and burning quickly and efficiently is key.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

A person who doesnt bother to improve his gameplay will not magically become better for having a parser, similar on how people dont play tanks despite all the bonus they keep putting for playing as one including faster queues, exlusive mounts, role bonus etc.

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They may because they'll actually see how much damage is inflicted depending on how well or how poorly they're timing their cooldowns and rotations properly, for example, holding certain abilities back INSTEAD of wasting them during phase transitions for a boss.

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Thats not a person whos learning his rotation, thats a person whos pressing buttons randomly sometimes without even bothering to read the skill descriptions. Everyone has had those kind of players (thanks god not very often) and you dont need a parser to know they suck (comes to mind a lv 70 Dragoon spamming impulse drive ONLY, or a Pala spamming Rage of Halone without the proper combo with aggro all over the place because not only aoe was too advanced for him he did lose aggro on single target as well) and if they didnt even bother to read what the hell their skills do, parser wont do anything for them to improve since theres 0 motivation to do so to begin with.

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Gee, wouldn't it be so great if like, we had people who knew what they were doing that we could reference the right rotations...and see how much damage they should and could be doing when playing optimally on certain fights? Oh....right.

We do. It's called FFLogs to find out which people are the solid players that you should measure yourself by. :)

You know....that tool where you can see how many times they've used what, when, and where....the tool that lets you playback the fight in a very basic, but kinda helpful way?

Gee, wouldn't it be SO GREAT if people knew that doing their rotations out of order ACTUALLY hurts their damage? What on earth could measure that, I wonder....

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

People get called out on their dps in LFR all the time. Never really results in a kick but its linked and people ridicule each other fairly regularly. Normal and Heroic raids as well, if anything Mythic is much less toxic. M+ dungeons your IO score trumps ilvl though they still care about your dps since trash pulling and burning quickly and efficiently is key.

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Guess I'm lucky. Not even top 10 with Frost Mage, nobody says a thing.

And LFR is balanced around 90% of the party afk anyways. Anyone getting iffy about dps there is having some security issues. I'd argue WoW LFR is more casual friendly than FFXIV.

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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Focusing on the "Mechanics" part of this. I do know that it can track things like what did damage when, and what killed and when. I had a case where I got a poorly uploaded spot for o6s, saying I did about 10th percentile (gray, real bad).

I checked it, it showed I was dead for around 25% of the fight (the last quarter) and I died to the tether. It also showed I got a lack of raises, and more to the point, showed the WHM was doing everything while the AST showed to do little (they actually dc'd). It also showed that the WAR got a debuff from the mechanic that killed me, meaning they were too close to the BLM in the back.

Using this "toxic system", I was able to see and conclude why a dps number might be poor, and see what can be improved. If someone is just too focused on dps that they fail mechs, you're either going to notice, or, for some cases, you can see what killed whom.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

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They allegedly balance around near-optimal play, albeit at minimum ilvl and originally without healer sustained DPS accounted for, already...

Moreover, I think you're considering the wrong need here. One doesn't need a calculator to do math, but would you want to calculate for a 200x10 table without Excel? Until time constraints and the operant conditioning given by convenience or inconvenience take form, such tools are just a want. But if the game wants a playerbase that isn't stratified except by choice, such a convenience is, on the whole, a need. It if the XIV staff wants to reduce unnecessary exclusion the game needs to provide enough convenience (be that by structure, information, analytical tools, or whatever else) to learning that the barrier to entry is not a lack of transparency or understanding of the game systems, but simply whether or not they wish to put in the effort to learn the fight's mechanics and adjust that understanding to them.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

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You should be running a parser for EX trials and Savage. You don't need to be a world first group or a theorycrafter, but it's something you should be doing. 2,000 DPS ain't getting you no where in Suzaku and the only way to tell whether it's you or someone else that isn't improving or being detrimental towards the group is...and brace with me...hard. cold. factual. numbers.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

So, apparently we need parsers partly due to bad players, so that we can point out that they're playing poorly, and so that they can't deny the data. Okay. Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly? What's preventing said bad players (and others that don't even fit in their same category of bad) to go all crazy on the meter's numbers and ignore everything else? Personally, most of the time that I get a wipe IT'S NOT because of dps lacking, even if that happens sometimes too when people don't even care to read their skills' tooltips. Most wipes (99% of them) come from people being unable (or unwilling, and sometimes precisely because they're focusing too much on dps to the point of messing phases) to do or learn the fight's mechanics, even when they're trivial. So, can you explain me how a parser will fix that? If they implement a parser for this reason, next thing that you'll ask for will be a DBM equivalent, too. Damn, there's even people not reading (or caring about) the descriptions on PF parties, making everyone else lose their time. And you think that a parser will suddendly make this all rainbows and butterflies? It might help with a very small minority that genuinely have issues with their rotations, but those players would improve anyway if some of you just got off your high horse and paid attention to what they're doing, and then helped them.

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I haven’t read the entire thread, so I’ll just speak with regards to what I personally think and feel.

I’m already well aware that parsers will not improve the skill of individuals when it comes to executing mechanics properly, and I’ve never claimed as such. However, parsers can help point out weak links in content where they actually matter: this content includes Extreme primals, Savage raids, and Ultimate raids. The weak links are usually the ones that lead to wipes, and they can be weak for any number of reasons; take your pick.

Parsers give you a quantifiable visual so you aren’t pointing fingers at the wrong individual. Combining them with something like FFLogs or the rDPS calculator or XIV Analysis tool can help players figure out exactly what is wrong, when it went wrong, and hopefully they can get together to try and fix it. But that requires coordination that you won’t find outside of a static, sadly.

No, parsers won’t do the mechanics for you. But if you cannot do the mechanics, you more than likely don’t have the damage or skill level to participate in the content yet. So leave, practice, and come back.

Also, I would kind of like to have one visible to parties so that, in the event I am singled out as being a detriment in terms of damage, I can actually defend myself. I still haven’t forgotten the SAM who called me a trash BRD in TsukuEx despite me being dead for a full 30 seconds and still doing double his damage per second. He was in full i360/i370 with her weapon; I was in i370 BiS... and I was doing 4,600+ DPS as a BRD... lying dead on the floor... to his ~2,500 DPS. I was also in a ShinEx party once where a MCH in i330/i340 gear was harassing a MNK in i320 gear about damage... yet the MNK was doing way more than the MCH... who was below the tanks.

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Now, about needing them to improve your own rotations... If you can't tell if you're doing more damage or not, you have a problem far worse than not having a parser. The only people that could *need* a parser are proper theorycrafters and the world-first groups, which often are the same. And, let's face it, I'm sure that 99% of you fall on neither of those.

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Not necessarily. More than just world-first players and theorycrafters use parsers to determine their damage in raid settings, and they’re useful to far more than just those specific individuals. Knowing what your total rDPS is can give you a fairly decent indicator of whether or not you’ll even meet the enrage of a fight (since all Ex/Savage/Ultimate fights have a minimum rDPS that you would need to even meet the enrage), to give one example. And coordinating raid utility and examining if you put out more is always useful to have.

You can’t tell how much damage you’re actually doing without a visible number on your screen. Unless you want to add up the Battle Log data yourself.

You can’t tell if you’re “doing more damage or not” without a visual indicator of such.

Moving things around in your rotation does not mean that you’re suddenly doing more damage. And while you can generally get a feeling of “damage feels a bit low”/“damage is quite high” off of how fast a boss is dying, if the pendulum is swinging towards low... how do you know who the responsible party is for why things are taking so long? Is it one DPS? Is it two? Or are all of them falling behind? You cannot know without a parser. Just like you cannot know how much damage you are personally doing without one.

I think ASTs should always have parsers handy, personally. Can’t tell you how many I see giving Balances to the SAM that’s doing less damage that a PLD or a WAR... Single-target cards can be optimized for bursts when you’re in a static setting and can communicate when bursts are occurring, but that’s not possible in PUG groups; it’s better giving single-target Balances to jobs that can actually do enough damage to make the card not a waste—so...not the SAMs doing less than the tanks.

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Also, official is quite the opposite to optional. The moment that they officially include a parser, they'll have to keep it in mind when balancing encounters because it will actually be part of the game. The issues with healers having to dps will be a joke when compared with the situations that that would create in several fronts, both in the community and on the dev's side. Do we really need even more of that, and just for nothing?

But hey, I believe in democracy. That's just my opinion, and SE is free to do what they please if they feel that the demand is worth it.

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The idea I’ve always heard of is implementing an in-game DPS meter for Party Finders. Particularly for content where having a parse to see damage actually matters (Extremes, Savages, Ultimate). The idea has always said that it would be a toggle-feature similar to the defunct Duty Recorder where you opt-in (“I want to join this party because they’re using a parser”) or you don’t (“I don’t want to join that party because they’re using a parser”). I don’t see the issue with an implementation like that; I quite like it actually.

I don’t want to get into a healer DPS debate, but if you want to use only 50% of your toolkit instead of the full 100%, then please find another party for it. Because I’m expected to press all of my buttons, so I expect my party members to press all of their buttons as well. Healers included.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Just butting in... How do you think the best rotations are found?

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math, the damage formula is known and potency values are given hell. for this expansion your rotation was already figured out before you logged into stormblood for the first time parsers have nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

math, the damage formula is known and potency values are given hell. for this expansion your rotation was already figured out before you logged into stormblood for the first time parsers have nothing to do with it.

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Fairly certain the rotations were hypothesized before launch, and then tested afterwards to see if the hypothetical opener/rotation was actually the best to do. Parsers had everything to do with that.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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Why would the devs need to keep parsers in mind when balancing encounters? In every raid dating back to Second Coil (possibly even the original Binding Coils), parsers have been used. Why would developing an official one suddenly necessitate a need to take them into consideration? Handling and successfully clearing mechanics is not the question here – that’s totally on player and party skill to work together to clear them.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that I am representative of the average player who is starting to raid. Say everybody is clearing mechanics properly, we’re all hitting the boss, and the fight in general is going very smoothly. But you hit enrage at 20%. Then information comes out that I’m holding the party back because I’m hitting 4.9k – a grey parse. But I’ve done my rotation correctly. Yet it’s quite obvious that I’m the reason for the enrage. But how am I supposed to know this? I followed my rotation exactly from the guide for my job on TMP.

The answer? In a lot of cases, I won’t know unless I can see the data. I wouldn’t know that I’m having some weaving issues, causing me to miss GCDs. I wouldn’t know that one of my TAs missed because the boss turned at the absolute wrong moment. I wouldn’t know that hitting TCJ at the wrong moment would hurt my overall DPS more than just throwing it out there. Yet in real time during the actual fight, it looks like I did everything just fine. But if I did everything just fine, how can I still be the worst DPS in the group? Why am I still a grey parse?

Things like this are why I want a parser of some kind on the PS4. I’m essentially blind. And every party has the right to kick me based on my parse. And trust me, I have been completely locked out of groups the moment I join. Which means that unless I’m with my static on raid night, I cannot do any raiding unless I just happen to join a party that either doesn’t mind I’m grey parse or doesn’t care.

One bad DPS does matter when most players in endgame are sitting at or near min-ilvl. That speedrunning business – it mostly starts really becoming a thing after about week 4 or so when you essentially have a good chunk of your BiS gear.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Fairly certain the rotations were hypothesized before launch, and then tested afterwards to see if the hypothetical opener/rotation was actually the best to do. Parsers had everything to do with that.

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Honestly, I'd give up trying to reason with him. I'm still convinced he's just a dedicated troll spouting such hilarious gems such as:"Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics" and "The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running". He, as well as others have clearly displayed their lack of knowledge in understanding how parsers assist in coming up with optimal rotations. If they seriously want to believe that theory crafters just stare at the battle log and potency tool tips all day, more power to them. Trying to debate someone who lives and apparently "get's off" in their own bubble of ignorance is literally a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Honestly, I'd give up trying to reason with him. I'm still convinced he's just a dedicated troll spouting such hilarious gems such as:"Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics" and "The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running". He, as well as others have clearly displayed their lack of knowledge in understanding how parsers assist in coming up with optimal rotations. If they seriously want to believe that theory crafters just stare at the battle log and potency tool tips all day, more power to them. Trying to debate someone who lives and apparently "get's off" in their own bubble of ignorance is literally a waste of time.

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I personally don't doubt its uses, and they are many. Most of them very helpful. I just don't think they should make an official parser that can be viewed group/raid wide is all. It's like giving a 5 year old the keys to a fighter jet for too many people. In a perfect world people would use them right and for the right reasons. This is not a perfect world.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I personally don't doubt its uses, and they are many. Most of them very helpful. I just don't think they should make an official parser that can be viewed group/raid wide is all. It's like giving a 5 year old the keys to a fighter jet for too many people. In a perfect world people would use them right and for the right reasons. This is not a perfect world.

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Here's a crazy thought: taking the idea of the Duty Recorder, what if the devs implemented it in the High-End Raid Finder? Since PFs are the preferred spots for raiding/Ex anyways, what if the rarely used Raid Finder gave that option that you could click on to match with similar players using an official parse? That way it'll only be used in the content where it's most useful, and possibly breath a little bit of life into the mostly-not-used Raid Finder for at least a little while?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Here's a crazy thought: taking the idea of the Duty Recorder, what if the devs implemented it in the High-End Raid Finder? Since PFs are the preferred spots for raiding/Ex anyways, what if the rarely used Raid Finder gave that option that you could click on to match with similar players using an official parse? That way it'll only be used in the content where it's most useful, and possibly breath a little bit of life into the mostly-not-used Raid Finder for at least a little while?

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While I personally love the idea can you imagine the uproar of all the gray parses being stuck together only to continuously hit enrage at 60%+?

SE wants us to carry bads, but then they do not give us enough wiggle room on enrage to truly carry bads. Early in a tier it only takes two bads in an EX before you are basically just slamming your head against enrage.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I'd argue WoW LFR is more casual friendly than FFXIV.

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LFR vs whole FFXIV = yes. LFR is there to allow people getting in the raid (and see the story) with the DF system, else, the raids (from normal to mythic) is out of DF, you have to group with party finder/friends, and go to the entry. The DF is a tool that help a lot casual player to enjoy content.

But LFR wow is close to raid24 in FF. 25people vs 24, most boss are quite easy strategy (even ozma was...) And in both, there is kick not when people are leeching, but when there are leecher AND the boss makes wipe. on both game there is no real matter when you LFR/raid24 to carry some other. . . Even with parser showing abyssaly low damages or even AFK people (when 90% of damages is from autoattack... ... ).



This is the reason i laugh when i read "wow is toxic due to parsers". I find both comunity really close in many point.

Toxicity is ALSO from people with "low" gameplay. People who dont want to be pointed due to their DPS. When some are low damages, if we cant tell it to them, there is less chance they will try to improve in next try. Then, f we cant kick them, there is 2 solution, or carry them, or disband. People said the chat in feast as example of toxicity worst than the toxicity previously there. Before? chat, and flaming yes. But it is part of comunication, people can sometime stop flaming, and coordinate their efforts. Now? no more speaking. Flaming didnt disapear, not shown in chat log, but i am not sure the guy is not raging behind his screen. AND he cant even try to comunicate to get a better teamplay.

Each one of us can choose what is the best... i prefer comunicate, getting insulte, than no communication. I prefer being said i have bad DPS, seeing it myself with my own tool (and admit or deny) than just being ignorant of the state...

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

math, the damage formula is known and potency values are given hell. for this expansion your rotation was already figured out before you logged into stormblood for the first time parsers have nothing to do with it.

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Is it useless to know stats weight?
How do you know the efficiency of 1 point in secundary stats without parser?

theory are a thing, then need to try the theory. Then, during a fight, you have sometime to think if it is a good idea to delay a little this or this cooldown. (and no mathematics can decide it). To get the "bis" stuff you have to know stats weight, to know stat weight ,you have to know the effect of each point. Mathematic cant says it without some tool to measure.


During ARR, we had thunderIII, longest dot, longest cast. Thunder, the lowest in time and cast, and thunder II in the middle between both. mathematics made close thunder and thunder II. tries of cycle (so need parse to see difference) said it was better to use thunderII even if the cast is over a GCD.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

*snip*

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SE already considers "parser" when creating a fight.
First, they said "now we will have the LB3 count to define how much damages" or "we will improve the DPS from the healers needed to kill the boss".
They have to... difficult content is not only hard mechanics to do. else lets do only bosses like 2nd bardam, managing only mechanics.
Difficulty is getting the mechanics, while sorting out enough damages to not get the enrage. so, getting out of the melee at the last second, remember to do 1 or 2 hit if you go near the boss/an add while moving to your destination. etc etc etc. If SE dont look to the theorical DPS, they will make some content nearly impossible (too much damages needed) or too weak (when enrage is not a matter, you can fight 50% more time to be sure to not do any miss on mechanics...)

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Originally Posted by Speaks

While I personally love the idea can you imagine the uproar of all the gray parses being stuck together only to continuously hit enrage at 60%+?

SE wants us to carry bads, but then they do not give us enough wiggle room on enrage to truly carry bads. Early in a tier it only takes two bads in an EX before you are basically just slamming your head against enrage.

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That's something I hate with a passion. Being carried. SE is out of touch if they think NA, at the very least, is willing to do that for everyone. During game time, I work my ass off to be better than just grey, so why should the raiders have to coddle to lazier players that will not put in nearly half the effort to not be anything before 10th percentile. That irritates me because to me, that's just saying that those players are essentially saying, who cares?

Honestly, what raider won't be bothered by the fact that they sit in grey? It literally is saying that your before average for your job. Then some of those same players argue against having a parser at all. It's irritating.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

*snip*

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What i will say is purely what i think.

Just see, all those "if we have official parser game will be as toxic as wow". And would speak about all "wow do it worse" for nearly all subject.
Many people come from wow, where comunity is more free to do what it want in the game (to some limit like bug exploit and other rule).
On FFXIV all is done for the new player, and the casual player to not have any frustration. "you dont want to have to wait 4 month subscription to get this reward? ok, lets erase the feature we did to thanks fidelity from our customer". "you dont want to confront and justify yourself in PF? ok, we will do all in DF" . When pagos didnt have fate train, most casual did leave and... oh fate train back, miracle. (and i speak CASUAL player, good like bad. just player with low game time ! )

This game is, as i see it, fully for the players with the less gametime, and the people that dont want to have some "serious" gameplay to see most part (all except ultimate). Thing that they dont have in WoW (just see some crying due to 3 dongeon not in the Duty Finder... and the LFR that exists only for those... even if "normal mode" is easy... like raid8 story mode is).
Yes, "good" players are intend to carry the other. Because we are not player in Yoshida's mind, but before all, we are all customers, and time some customers are ok to carry other customers... He is happy because subscription all continue.

If tomorrow he does an official parser (or finally, as he did promise during beta, do the API to do addon like wow) those customers that hate parsers will says "the game become like wow, scandalous" and will probably... go away. . . So customers loss.

This situation (with parser allow but never allow to speak about what they says) is the "best" for him. the player wanting to evolve get their parser (if PC players :-°) the anti-parsers get their "nearly pure game" and all get the hop that the other team finally get rekt (with finally no parser at all or finally official parser)...

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I personally don't doubt its uses, and they are many. Most of them very helpful. I just don't think they should make an official parser that can be viewed group/raid wide is all. It's like giving a 5 year old the keys to a fighter jet for too many people. In a perfect world people would use them right and for the right reasons. This is not a perfect world.

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Then why is ACT ok? The 5 year olds have been flying around in fighter jets for years and the game is in one piece.

personally I'm neutral when it comes to parsers. I can see where they could help if the individual wants but I, myself, don't care to know numbers. I feel numbers do not reflect the instance or the fight since every fight in one way shape or form can be different. My parse was uploaded to fflogs without my knowledge or consent. That is something I have a problem with. If you use it to better yourself, cool, but when you parse and upload someone else's numbers without them knowing it, that isn't cool at all.

People will attempt to game the parser system for themselves and others, especially if said information can be looked up and the person judged for content outside of raids. Uploading a parser system will make people a hell of a lot more paranoid about the game and whether they can participate in content, or whether their attempting to learn, or the actions of their teammates, will affect their worth as a player.

You can say that its already out and about, but an official parser would make it official and widespread and all chatter and refusals to work with another person would have the dev's approval all over it. Since there is never any solid information on rotation and mechanics are becoming increasingly deceptive, the game starts to become unfriendly and unfair, especially if you are starting late.