Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's still a myth that healers have downtime.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/2pHCxQtUttmHm/giphy.gif

It's been 4 years, this topic never dies, does it...
This is a game, nothing is "mandatory": you could just sit during Scathach and watch other players kill the boss, the fight doesn't need everyone to do their best.
But then, you should ask yourself if your sitting and waiting for others to fill in your portion of dps is respectful towards them.
In this game, both tanking and healing are just a minimal part of your job, since waiting for people to drop and filling them back up doesn't require any gameplay at all, it's just pressing the same button at the right speed. That's why as a healer and/or tank, it is part of your job to try and weave in at least some damage. This is not WoW, your job is not just healing. Stop taking Yoshida's words as an excuse to be lazy.
As long as non-endgame content is involved, a healer not dpsing is not a big deal, but in raids if you are not maximizing your damage while healing you are heavily hindering your raid group.
In conclusion, do you do casual stuff? Try to do some damage but don't really fret over it; do you raid? Then yes, dpsing is part of your job. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Garbage.

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Shouldn't you be off being an amazing pure healer in dungeons so you actually have a high enough ilvl to participate in Stormblood rather than infusing the forums with your ignorance?

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Originally Posted by Keramory

That's my point though. There is no thread about lazy DPS or tanks. It's only ever healers that get brought up. Yes there are some threads the healers themselves bring up and cry... but many... many others are brought up and continued to spammed by non healers.

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This.

The reason those threads don't exist is because DPS jobs and tanks do DPS in the normal course of fulfilling their role requirements, healers do not. If I switch to DPS stance on my WAR, none of my button pressing changes. Not one. All I do is change my percentage of incoming and outgoing dmg, my total HP pool, and how much I stress my healer. But exactly none of my buttons change. They may do slightly different things (Equilibrium heals TP instead of HP, etc), but they are all the same buttons. A DPS doing more dps doesn't change what buttons they press, they just get better at pressing them. Heals doing DPS press all sorts of different buttons TO THE EXCLUSION of pressing the buttons for their core role. Sorry, but that's an unfair comparison.

And given the lead dev of the game explaining numerous times that no encounter requires a healer DPSing to pass that encounter's DPS check, methinks one big reason you see so much "healers are teh lazee for not doing teh deepz" hate is exactly as you say...lazy DPS who refuse to admit they are lazy and/or unskilled at their job. I am not a perfect tank by any means, but I know when I am the weakest link and when I am not. And yeah, there are tons of DPS players who mail it in during DF runs. If I stay upright for an entire run and never use a health pot or self-heal, yet the run went slooooowwwww...I am pretty sure my healer is not the reason.

Now, healers who do cover for and often enough exceed the DPS and speed things up...may The Twelve bless them. No doubt. Good on 'em, ad I hope I can play heals so well someday, but I don't think the role deserves the hate for doing something above and beyond their core role, especially when we know the game isn't designed around it.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

DPS'ing as healer also takes confidence

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It also takes a good degree of party synergy as well, especially in a random party. I'll be the first to admit when I'm healing for my set group I'll dps to no end. Simply because I know what to expect. If I have to party with randoms I'll often scale back on my dps just because I don't know what to expect. Is the tank good and can manage cool downs, or do they even know what a cool down is? Is the dps A+ when it comes to dodging, or do they like dancing in fire? These are just some of the questions I ask myself when partied with randoms. The others could be top tier players, or players playing a job they never played before in dungeons for all I know, because that's just it. I DON'T know. Usually I will know after the first boss if I'm clear to scale up dps or not. If on the second boss I'm still doing bare minimal basic dps. It's because I saw something on the first boss I didn't like and the voice in my head tells me that scaling up my dps is just going to lead to a wipe and people dieing. I'm not being lazy, I want to win and I have to make up for one or more flaws in the party.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

It also takes a good degree of party synergy as well, especially in a random party. I'll be the first to admit when I'm healing for my set group I'll dps to no end. Simply because I know what to expect.

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+1, this.

Same fr mass pulling on my tank. I'll let my first few pulls be the judge of whether I can round up a whole floor at once. 90% of the time in DF random...yeah, not so much with big pulls, slow and steady wins the race. I'd have to believe healers in DF random are the same. Not all random teammates are created equal, but it seems like there is a wildly unrealistic expectation on healers in randoms.

come on we all know that bad healers are gonna be bad even if they make it as easy as they doing right now, there is no fixing that even with cleric stance change.
by standard a healer that DPS&Heals is a lot better than one that just Heals. thats the problem everyone want a trophy/ recognize as good without putting effort an practice---but no success come without risk.
an to those who are "only heals" dont worry my full STR war will make sure you stay busy in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

This is probably the smartest reply to the healer topic. I've never understood why healers have down time to begin with.

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Because if good healers don't have downtime then bad healers won't have fun time.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's still a myth that healers have downtime. If they are playing in a lazy manner by casting only Medica II and then doing nothing else, or spamming the chat with whatever, then maybe you got a party troll and you can justify using "harassment" as the kick reason. Or maybe you as the tank could just pull everything in the dungeon and see if they can really keep up.

Likely why WHM/everyone is losing stoneskin, it's to increase healing requirements. Sorry guys, you were cheesing the dungeons with it, it's gone~. Next patch, the regen buffs disappear, then the patch after that all the shields disappear, all replaced with Cure 4/Benefic 4/Aldoquium 2 or something else ridiculous making the healers even more the same~.

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Ahaha

Still prattling on with this nonsense, I see. How many people have to tell you healers have ample downtime before it sinks in? I have literally had 80-90% Cleric up time. Considering you have not even unlocked HW content, perhaps it's best you don't try and project an opinion you have no right backing?

And this is where your lack of healer knowledge shows. Stoneskin is practically worthless. You only bother with Stoneskin II because it's essentially free pre-pull, otherwise you'll mostly only touch Stoneskin if someone dies. You certainly aren't "cheesing" dungeons with it. You know how I "cheese" dungeons? By going Noct and placing what will soon by a 300% shield on the tank. :p

I can only speak for myself, but speaking for the average content in the game..

I've only been irritated at healers if someone dies. I've been impressed by healers that pump out damage and no one dies, but never irritated for not doing that.

I've only been irritated at tanks if they aren't holding agro, I've been impressed by tanks stance dancing and doing damage while holding agro and not dying, but never irritated for not doing that.

I've only been irritated at dps if they aren't killing things in a timely manner. I'm happy when they use their utility properly, but usually not irritated. (Unless healer needs mana, bard pls)

My point being, there's doing your job, and then there's being optimal. We shouldn't expect everyone to be optimal, but we should ask them to do their jobs. If they are optimal, commend them! Otherwise, people just let do their job?

P.s. Savage Raiding is another story.

Just let people do their job rather*

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

I have no idea why someone, healer or otherwise, would want to just stand around for periods of time doing nothing while their comrades in arms are not in harms way but are doing everything they can to get through the dungeon and support their fellow team mates. I for one would find it ungodly boring and very disrespectful to not contribute.

This is of course my opinion and people may argue it, but why stop contributing to the group? Even the dps pushing one button is at least contributing.

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I agree with this mostly, but it does read like doing dps is the only way to contribute to a group, when tanking, healing and support are actual functions that also contribute.

That said, I agree with the theory of why would you want to just stand around doing nothing when those down periods occur? Like someone else said in another thread on this, rule 1 is that there is always a button you can press that could help out somehow.

It's pretty easy to tell a healer is being lazy in easy/dungeon content compared to tanks/DPS. You just never see Cleric Stance ever turn-on, and if they do try to do damage without it today it's so nimble that it never makes a difference. It's like you have a painted bullseye if you are a lazy healer, it's so obvious.

DPS sometimes you can't always tell right away. Aside from parsing methods.

Tanks you can sort of tell if they can keep things going without tank stances and using cooldown mitigation. Still, tanks do damage regardless, whether it's optimal or not, you can't always tell without parsing.

DRGs that never have Heavy Thrust up, never use or let Blood of the Dragon. You can tell is being lazy.

BRD/MCH is a little harder cause even if they have Barrel/Minuet up, you can't always follow their DoTs are up or falling off without looking closely, or they keep losing damage by not doing damage on-the-move.

Is it bad that I pray at some point they do massively increase the healing demands just to see what happens?

But-But-But... why else am I gonna let my party intentionally wipe if I don't spend my entire time dpsing? The healer must dps meta is my excuse to not heal my groups, without that excuse I'll have to actually do my jerb...

Meanwhile in world maps, apart for a few situations where i dont need heals, i put my chocobo on healer-only mode 95% of the time because he has a bad habit to dps like a retard instead of healing me when i need it right now :mad:

I wonder how many posts this topic will get in the end, seems like i need to get my pop corn bags.

It makes me cringe when I run a dungeon with a healer that's shielded the tank, applied a regen, and then just stands there not casting anything. And then you see their character rotate and turn a little all while doing nothing.

I've just used Deathflare. Aetherflow's on cooldown. The enemies still have 20% health. The other DPS is of course a dragoon (:rolleyes:). We could have cleared this pack by now with even just minimal AoE from the healer.

Interesting, I mean I'm not shocked but in /normal/ content (that I have done with healer before, maybe it'll change in expansion) if I didn't have to DD I would say that healer role is the easiest role in the game. There is so much downtime if you use your HoTs/heals when you're not already dying, don't wait to be dead lol.

I personally don't rage quit if a healer stays on top of the party, because this normal content doesn't really need their damage AND it can make really large pulls super casual comfortable which is nice lol (don't even have to think about HG, although I'd probably use it anyways haha) but please.. if you're going to play pure healer then do that :D, Keep everyone up and running strong. I've seen quite a few people who don't DD and some how everyone is in the yellow for minutes at a time in the easy level content (its not like a big spell just came by and smacked us, that of course makes sense).

I've never kicked a healer for not DDing since it didn't really ruin the run, especially as I'm doing all casual content lol (I've told SMN to stop being annoying with their Titan Egi though lol); however, I can imagine in the harder content a healer doing DD is going to significantly be higher valued to the point if you don't DD you will likely be kicked. If you told them at the gate they'd just not invite you, and if they find you're that style in the content they'd just kick you.

Maybe the team doesn't design around it but the value of a healer who does vs one who does not is a pretty big difference when every % counts (like I'm not worried we will fail normal mode dungeon, but people will be counting % in savage/ex/savage+ because that's the sort of content it is). Perhaps if they made content that made you cure like no tomorrow people would warm up to the idea more, but it doesn't look like that's a popular content design.

Yep, I even seen a lot of posts about the loss of stone skin like it's the worst thing in the world. I'm like why do you care about it so much? Was it because all you ever did was use it every pull and tried to keep it up on the tank as an excuse not to DPS? It'd be funny because you'd see healers only use regen and stone skin buttons.

Tank busters are survived on cooldown mitigation and shielding healers, stone skin was crap ever since graniteskin was taken away.

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Originally Posted by technole

It's pretty easy to tell a healer is being lazy in easy/dungeon content compared to tanks/DPS. You just never see Cleric Stance ever turn-on, and if they do try to do damage without it today it's so nimble that it never makes a difference. It's like you have a painted bullseye if you are a lazy healer, it's so obvious.

DPS sometimes you can't always tell right away. Aside from parsing methods.

Tanks you can sort of tell if they can keep things going without tank stances and using cooldown mitigation. Still, tanks do damage regardless, whether it's optimal or not, you can't always tell without parsing.

DRGs that never have Heavy Thrust up, never use or let Blood of the Dragon. You can tell is being lazy.

BRD/MCH is a little harder cause even if they have Barrel/Minuet up, you can't always follow their DoTs are up or falling off without looking closely, or they keep losing damage by not doing damage on-the-move.

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But tanks and dps don't sit on their buttocks looking at others, do they.
You have minutes of free time during fights, use that time to help the team.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

But-But-But... why else am I gonna let my party intentionally wipe if I don't spend my entire time dpsing? The healer must dps meta is my excuse to not heal my groups, without that excuse I'll have to actually do my jerb...

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A healer that doesn't heal is just as bad as a healer that doesn't dps. If you can't do both in a casual dungeon, you are bad and unwilling to improve.
g i t g u d

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Originally Posted by YanDere

A healer that doesn't heal is just as bad as a healer that doesn't dps. If you can't do both in a casual dungeon, you are bad and unwilling to improve.
g i t g u d

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I can do both just fine. I just prefer to spend every GCD spamming dps because I like having the excuse to. It would be infinitely more boring if I had to actually heal. I play a healer to spam a simple rotation, not keep people alive~

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Oh, don't get me wrong, I can do both just fine. I just prefer to spend every GCD spamming dps because I like having the excuse to. It would be infinitely more boring if I had to actually heal. I play a healer to spam a simple rotation, not keep people alive~

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So you choose to be a brat, for..... reasons. Ok then.

I'm honestly quite unlucky that I encountered so many Healers that just stood there, did nothing, and lost control even though they never attempted to dps. Never even tried to apply Dots or anything, nothing. They stood there, and still let DPS or Tanks on the brink of death or even die because of unavoidable aoe attacks (especially painful for players with lower gear who try to farm stuff and fill their currency). Maybe they're watching TV while running their Dungeons and Raids, or eating, or whatever. Sad to see that there are going to be future Healers that will use what Yoshi-P said just to do nothing. I am not looking forward to who will just stand there and do nothing or ASTs that never even play their cards. Imo playing a Healer must be boring when you just stand around and press a button or two sometimes, not using the full potential
I really do hope that the upcoming Dungeons and Raids will require much more healing lol

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

But-But-But... why else am I gonna let my party intentionally wipe if I don't spend my entire time dpsing? The healer must dps meta is my excuse to not heal my groups, without that excuse I'll have to actually do my jerb...

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Or you can be a good healer and do both.

Edit: Oh, sorry, saw your other post. My answer would be the same than Aramina.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

So you choose to be a brat, for..... reasons. Ok then.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

So you choose to be a brat, for..... reasons. Ok then.

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Well, my job as a healer is to make sure everything dies, rather than keeping people alive. I've kinda given up fighting it, so I'll just embrace the meta wholeheartedly~

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Well, my job as a healer is to make sure everything dies, rather than keeping people alive. I've kinda given up fighting it, so I'll just embrace the meta wholeheartedly~

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Except people don't actually say that, you just feel like being a child which is whatever, but at least admit it. The meta is dps when there is no healing to do, as you full well know.

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Originally Posted by Deviru

Agreed. Seeing as how I still see healers struggle with the Vault at high item levels to this day without casting a single DPS spell, this would make healing impossible for a lot of players.

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See this is actually the reason i love the vault. half the time i straight up *can't* dps in there. going in on AST i just keep praying for Boles so i can get off a couple gravities. I kinda understand why you wouldn't trust people to be able to heal it though cos back when i was a scrubby ass noob i wiped so many times in my first run.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I am going to quote a person from youtube named Sotrubaby when he stated "When you EXPECT a healer to dps, you EXPECT a dps to heal you". That is all that needs to be said!

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Most DPS don't have a healing spell they can spam, so if they do heal it'll be once every 60 seconds or so. Healers, on the other hand, have DPS skills. So they should also be using those, should those DPS heal.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

So you choose to be a brat, for..... reasons. Ok then.

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Are his/her reasons any less valid than your reasons which are based your individual preferences and opinions? no they are not. Resulting to name calling offers little in swaying people towards your opinion.

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Originally Posted by floofuf

Most DPS don't have a healing spell they can spam, so if they do heal it'll be once every 60 seconds or so. Healers, on the other hand, have DPS skills. So they should also be using those, should those DPS heal.

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Red Mage actually has a very strong healing spell, it seems. I wonder if people are aware of that.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

stuff

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You're just making a fool of yourself at this point.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Are his/her reasons any less valid than your reasons which are based your individual preferences and opinions? no they are not. Resulting to name calling offers little in swaying people towards your opinion.

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Posting on alt.

I am not trying to sway anyone. Refusing to do your primary job because someone may ask you to contribute in another way IS childish. Refusing to do what you signed up for is completely indefensible. That is far and away beyond even healers refusing to dps.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Red Mage actually has a very strong healing spell, it seems. I wonder if people are aware of that.

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It has been mentioned, and has also been mentioned that if it is needed people would expect it to be used.

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Posting on alt.

I am not trying to sway anyone. Refusing to do your primary job because someone may ask you to contribute in another way IS childish. Refusing to do what you signed up for is completely indefensible. That is far and away beyond even healers refusing to dps.



It has been mentioned, and has also been mentioned that if it is needed people would expect it to be used.

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healer dps in dungeons is not needed. period. furthermore if no-one died they did their job. dps is and has always been extra. This was never a discussion until the speed run mentality went full tilt. a little side note, i've seen way more healers willing to dps on regular pulls vs the large pulls. gear or not if they are not comfortable weaving dps on the super pulls they won't. granted the removal of cleric stance will probably alleviate this some.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

healer dps in dungeons is not needed. period. furthermore if no-one died they did their job. dps is and has always been extra. This was never a discussion until the speed run mentality went full tilt. a little side note, i've seen way more healers willing to dps on regular pulls vs the large pulls. gear or not if they are not comfortable weaving dps on the super pulls they won't. granted the removal of cleric stance will probably alleviate this some.

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Did you actually read what I was replying to? She said she refuses to heal because the meta is to dps. She will let people die to prove a point. Why are you defending this?

Here is what I was replying to:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Oh, don't get me wrong, I can do both just fine. I just prefer to spend every GCD spamming dps because I like having the excuse to. It would be infinitely more boring if I had to actually heal. I play a healer to spam a simple rotation, not keep people alive~

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Red Mage actually has a very strong healing spell, it seems. I wonder if people are aware of that.

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I'm aware. But I think we can all agree that if a RDM is just spamming Vercure and not doing anything, everyone would feel happy to give them a kick.

The only real way to "fix" this whole "Healers SHOULD DPS" is to disable their damaging spells/abilities while they are in a dungeon/raid. Which would make them 100% healer's. The only reason for healers dps would be for open world and solo content. This will never happen of course, disabling of abilities/spells, so the mindset of "Healers WILL DPS or Vote Kick" will remain. Sadly. That is and will always be the way of the community.

I think there's a pretty big difference between running your first extreme trial or savage raid as a healer, and whether you can weave in enough DPS to make people not yell at you for not, and running an expert roulette that you have done 8 million times before and how much DPS you do there. I can spend a good chunk of expert roulette in cleric stance, doing as much DPS as the other classes if not more on the big pulls. But I know for a fact that my dps the first time I ran Sephirot EX my DPS was shit because turning cleric stance on was risking someones death every time because I didn't know the fight.

Since the majority of the people in this thread would respond that you should stop sucking/get good/stop being lazy because I wasn't pulling high DPS on a difficult fight weren't actually in the group, they don't give a crap that it was hard enough just to keep everyone alive. They only care about yelling at the hypothetical lazy healers that you encounter about as often as the black mage spamming blizzard I or the paladin that doesn't use flash.

Lazy players are always going to be lazy players no matter what their role and no one wants to play with them. The healer that keeps you alive but didn't think they would have enough time to cleric stance, get all their dots off, and then turn off cleric stance before you died to standing in fire is not necessarily a lazy player. Everyone needs to chill out with the accusations and the drama over something that isn't an issue for the average player. The people who want to DPS will be happy with the cleric stance changes and be more comfortable with it. The people who are lazy will still be too lazy. Lumping all people who play healers into the same group is exhausting.

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Did you actually read what I was replying to? He said he refuses to heal because the meta is to dps. He will let people die to prove a point. Why are you defending this?

Here is what I was replying to:

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Many, many, many healers will let dps die in favor of doing more damage, just from a cursory glance through these forums. So long as I don't let the tank die, I consider my job complete. That's what oGCD's are for no?

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Originally Posted by floofuf

I'm aware. But I think we can all agree that if a RDM is just spamming Vercure and not doing anything, everyone would feel happy to give them a kick.

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I wouldn't mind. That's just more reason for me to only dps.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

If this debate continues, I would not be suprised to see SE remove the option for healers to dps in dungeons and raids at all. This will only hurt those of us who do like to dps in dungeons and raids.

Less healers doing dps means we need to rely on dps doing actual (decent) dps. May the lord help us all when that day comes.

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I dare them to try that with the current state of the game. The mass quitting of healers be so large you bee waiting 1 hr + in queues in current content. Healer DPS is not the problem, PEOPLE SAYING HEALERS DO NOT NEED TO DPS is the problem! premade abuse and telling healers they are **** for using cleric at all is the problem. BASHING A HEALER because a tank has to use CDS because the healer is contributing is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Mature

If you think being brutally honest if being toxic you need a good reality check ASAP. I'm putting things under perspective. I'm telling you a very simple fact that you and other can get their head round to it , DPSing as a healer is OPTIONAL. Simple as that and trying to FORCE others to do what you want them to do it even worst.

the dps actions are there. You either chose to use them or not it's not my problem as it shouldn't be yours. As long as the healer keeps me alive that's all that matters to me.

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How about if I be brutally honest with you? You are clueless, you are ignoring logical arguments to spew toxicity and promoting toxic behavior. There is something wrong with you when you can't see the issue behind a shield healer doing more DPS then 2 DPS, a tank and a pure healer, where the pure healer is a regen user + said pure healer being out DPS by range LB. Keep in mind the shield healer as AST, not SCH so they where doing it all themself + keeping buffs on, using the roll every 30 sec and appling AoE balance with that DPS and top healer as a shield user.

pure healing is lazy, pure and simple. that whm was very lazy in that group. (or unskilled/new)

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Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Did you actually read what I was replying to? She said she refuses to heal because the meta is to dps. She will let people die to prove a point. Why are you defending this?

Here is what I was replying to:

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I know exactly what she said,but I also know she was trolling you because of your antagonist way of responding to folks. i've seen her other replies. When you result to name calling that's what you get. however, if you look at my post it was regarding that healer dps is not needed in a dungeon. i wasn't defending her/him. if I felt she actually did that i would say something. However based on other post i've seen them make i believe this isn't the actual behavior.