Fat Moogle Mount on Mogstation!

From what I have seen from here on the forums and in game there seems to be 3 crowds.

1.Are against the mog shop
2. Support the mog shop
3. Are ok with the mog shop existing but think most items are over priced.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

From what I have seen from here on the forums and in game there seems to be 3 crowds.

1.Are against the mog shop
2. Support the mog shop
3. Are ok with the mog shop existing but think most items are over priced.

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three households, all alike in dignity,
In fair Eorzea, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean...

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

It´s not really the same.
I have stated that some poster´s opinions were nothing but wild speculations, which is a fact and matches the dictionary description of the word speculation.

Offer me a mirror when i claim that my opinions are untouchable or that they are the absolute truth on the subject at hand.
So far, i did not do so, i merely discarded someone else´s opinions as invalid.

Close, but no cigar, Zigabar.

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Claiming the speculations, and it's worth noting that your original post was global - it wasn't quoting anyone, are "wild" is implying that they are without merit or baseless. Again, you weren't replying to anyone specific in your trigger post, you were replying to everyone who didn't like the cash shop. So you discarded all of their opinions as invalid.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I like the cut of your jib. Tell me more, adorable lala!

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You maniacs!! [the ffxiv dev team] You blew it up!! [referring to the expanding library of items only available via real money transactions]

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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That is because their complaints are based on something that none of us has real access to it´s relevant data.
It of course also applies to me, but that does not make my dismissal any less valid.

Saying "The tooltip says this ability shoul do 100 damage and it does 150 damage instead" is a valid complaint because it is something you can prove.
Saying "Every time an exclusive item makes it to the cash shop, it means they cut content from the game or it´s developing time that could have been added to the game" is pure speculation.

Why? Because in truth none of us knows how they work at SE or how they organize to create extra content, or if that content would have been created at all without the mogstation, or even if it´s made by the same team etc etc etc.

It´s does not have the same validity as a regular complaint.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

That is because their complaints are based on something that none of us has real access to it´s relevant data.
It of course also applies to me, but that does not make my dismissal any less valid.

Saying "The tooltip says this ability shoul do 100 damage and it does 150 damage instead" is a valid complaint because it is something you can prove.
Saying "Every time an exclusive item makes it to the cash shop, it means they cut content from the game or it´s developing time that could have been added to the game" is pure speculation.

Why? Because in truth none of us knows how they work at SE or how they organize to create extra content, or if that content would have been created at all without the mogstation, or even if it´s made by the same team etc etc etc.

It´s does not have the same validity as a regular complaint.

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Voicing concerns based on trends and trends seen in comparable products is fine though. I personally prefer to include as much caveat-loaded language as I can when I'm not worked up, but I slip up too.

I'm actually thinking that the real disagreement is over what people feel is included in a subscription. Before you say it, yeah - Square did tell us that they reserved the option to do additive services and left it vague enough, but that's where the word "feel" comes in.

Square never promised to leave the holiday items on the vendors, but people felt like they should have and so were upset about it. The sort of items that show up in the cash shop had always been part of the game so people felt like those items were being taken out of the game rather than being made just for the cash shop. This is almost definitely the way it was planned, but the player that's upset didn't know that and so all they see is something that they feel had been included in the game and now is being charged as an extra.

I don't think SE has been excessive - I mean the dyes were stupid and the furnishing thing about it being destroyed was dumb, but in aggregate, they've been good in my opinion. Othe's have a different threshold and I'm not going to change their minds. I do agree that countering factual inaccuracies is important though.

every time they add content to the cash shop it necessarily precludes them from adding that same content as a reward to a piece of playable in-game content. I think we can all agree that if this new mount were an extremely rare achievement reward and was also available in Mog Shop that we would be filled with righteous fury.

However, it's perfectly reasonable to argue that the devs only have the resources necessary to create these cool mounts/other cosmetics but not enough resources to actually build new gameplay surrounding each one and that the Mog Shop is a compromise solution. But the flipside is that once we accept the Mog Shop as part of the game's design the devs lose a lot of incentive to try and balance these two things and in a worst case scenario may end up locking too much content behind the store, content that really should be available in game as part of something like DD or a new sidequest or achievement reward.

Personally I prefer to ignore cash shop items, I support the devs with my subscription and I like to think that subscription entitles me to all of a game's content, provided I put the work in the achieve my goals. It does irk me when something prestigious like a rare mount is totally disconnected from in-game performance/achievement. But I acknowledge reality.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

That mount is ugly AF, idk why people tend to like fat things...

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Says a lala LOL oh the irony.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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But this is precisely what i was trying to explain!
My complaint against this thread was that people are passing feelings and assumptions as absolute facts.
Hack, in some messages they even claim that only the ignorant and uncaring could ever possibly disagree with their conclusions and i find their to be ridiculous, as again, it´s not based on facts.

I'm cheap, I want a single seater for 15$. 30$ is a lot of cash......

ok, just stop with the "go f2p already" talk, have you seen f2p MMO's? if you think RMT /tell's are bead now, insted of it being the normal 1-3 upon log in it'll be 15-20, I have played my fair share of f2p MMO's and they all have 1 thing in common, evil items, over powered gear, random boxes that has a 0.4% chance of getting that shiny mount you want, exp boost, stat boost items and other items that would be impossible to get otherwise.

People want to call a mount a pay-to-win that doesn't offer a stat boost of any kind has no idea of what a pay-to-win item is, I had this happen in a f2p game, I got challenged to a duel by a lvl 13 at the time I was lvl 25, my gear was level 22-25 enhanced crafted gear, he had level 10 CS gear, I lost due to the gear, it had double to triple the stats my gear had, thats a pay-to-win item.

I was originally against the cash shop, if it wasn't for the cash shop I would have to remake my character everytime I changed races (and be in 2.1 MSQ), also I do have the Slepinir mount, but I still use my trusty chocobo, now the items on the mogstation isn't evil items I think the items could be brought in-game, but at least this way people could buy a mount or glamour gear and not have to grind days, weeks or months for it.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

But this is precisely what i was trying to explain!
My complaint against this thread was that people are passing feelings and assumptions as absolute facts.
Hack, in some messages they even claim that only the ignorant and uncaring could ever possibly disagree with their conclusions and i find their to be ridiculous, as again, it´s not based on facts.

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You spin a fancy tale. You have twisted and manipulated so many comments in this thread, it's amazing. Don't try and act like the reasonable one now.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

But this is precisely what i was trying to explain!
My complaint against this thread was that people are passing feelings and assumptions as absolute facts.
Hack, in some messages they even claim that only the ignorant and uncaring could ever possibly disagree with their conclusions and i find their to be ridiculous, as again, it´s not based on facts.

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Sure, and those people aren't worth bothering with. Admittedly I replied to one of the "I'm going to make fun of people who buy that thing!", mainly to point out that that would be harassment. It was an effort to hopefully keep the person from wrecking someone else's day.

Mixed in with those posters are far more people saying that there are lines they don't want SE to cross and that's probably a good thing for Square to know. Just so we're clear, we're in the same camp. Facts rarely change feelings in an argument though.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You spin a fancy tale. You have twisted and manipulated so many comments in this thread, it's amazing. Don't try and act like the reasonable one now.

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Prove your accusations against me or stop attacking me personally.
I am getting tired of being called a liar and a manipulator by you, every other page.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

Prove your accusations against me or stop attacking me personally.
I am getting tired of being called a liar and a manipulator by you, every other page.

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Well, my favorite so far has been your gross misinterpretation of my comment, and your following response:

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

You sound like them Tumblr Feminists
"If you don´t agree with me you don´t know any better"

Pathetic and saddening, literally.

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I mean, clearly you are far better than the rest of us. You would never stoop to personal attacks.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

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Except no one told that it's p2w. But do not treat cosmetics itens as useless items that you can cashgrab, f2p mmos do it because they're free already. These items are a huge part of the game and it's obvious that people care about them. And yeah, I have no problem with having recolours, but exclusive items no. There are people that don't wanna work for a thing but there are those that want. SE could've released it in-game and a recolour after and them make both people happy but they decided to take the other and worse route.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

ok, just stop with the "go f2p already" talk, have you seen f2p MMO's? if you think RMT /tell's are bead now, insted of it being the normal 1-3 upon log in it'll be 15-20

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Come to Jenova, you get spammed rmt every 10 seconds at times.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

...So you discarded all of their opinions as invalid.

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Please see my earlier post RE: opinion vs. assertion. It is fair game to criticize baseless speculation which is used to back an assertion. As a matter of fact, invalidating your opponent's arguments is the entire point of debate. If you don't want to be invalidated, don't build truth statements on shaky premises. De gustibus non est disputandum. De veritate disputandum est!

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

Please see my earlier post RE: opinion vs. assertion. It is fair game to criticize baseless speculation which is used to back an assertion. As a matter of fact, invalidating your opponent's arguments is the entire point of debate. If you don't want to be invalidated, don't build truth statements on shaky premises. De gustibus non est disputandum. De veritate disputandum est!

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Except that that particular "speculation" includes, as mentioned previously, the leveling pot. Which wasn't baseless as the producer of the game himself brought it up as a possibility. So referring to all of people prior as making a baseless claim is false. In addition, citing trends in comparable products is a perfectly valid approach to speculation - not baseless.

Citing it as fact? No, but neither are they wild speculations.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

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I did not "misrepresent your comment", you literally said:

For those who are OK with our current cash shop - is it just that you've never experienced any alternative? As mentioned earlier, my first MMO was XI and I didn't know what cash shops were until I branched out to F2P games (yeaaaars down the road). I suppose if this is your first MMO, or you've only played newer games, you would know no better. This obviously won't be the case for everyone. Just a shower thought.

Adding "i know it does not apply to everyone" makes your post sound as much less condescending as "i mean no offense but..." makes a post less offensive.

You proposed that those people that disagreed with you did so out of their lack of experience and / or ignorance and that´s low.

Furthermore, you claim i have "twisted and manipulated" a big amount of comments yet you post only one.

I am still waiting for the cascade of manipulation you claim i caused.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Well, my favorite so far has been your gross misinterpretation of my comment, and your following response:



I mean, clearly you are far better than the rest of us. You would never stoop to personal attacks.

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Oh you should know better Skivvy. It's only a problem when other people act like that, when he acts like that it's okay. LOL

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

I did not "misrepresent your comment", you literally said:

For those who are OK with our current cash shop - is it just that you've never experienced any alternative? As mentioned earlier, my first MMO was XI and I didn't know what cash shops were until I branched out to F2P games (yeaaaars down the road). I suppose if this is your first MMO, or you've only played newer games, you would know no better. This obviously won't be the case for everyone. Just a shower thought.

Adding "i know it does not apply to everyone" makes your post sound as much less condescending as "i mean not offense but..." makes a post be less offensive.

You literally assumed that people disagreed with you because of the lack of experience and / or ignorance and that´s low.

Furthermore, you claim i have "twisted and manipulated" a big amount of comments yet you post only one.

I am still waiting for the cascade of manipulation you claim i caused.

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You take offense to everything it seems. A shower thought could be likened to spit-balling. Spit-balling has the following definition:

spit·ball
ˈspitbôl/
NORTH AMERICAN
verbinformal
gerund or present participle: spitballing
throw out (a suggestion) for discussion.
"I'm just spitballing a few ideas"

So with this new knowledge, can you see the error of your ways? You pounced on a single comment and used that chance to imply that I am pathetic and saddening, and on par with a Tumblr Feminist.


I think that was a perfect example of your behavior in this thread. There are most definitely other cases as well, but truthfully, I'm at work currently and don't care that much. You can take this as a victory for yourself as I am obviously failing to provide a mountain of evidence to appease you. I know better, and I'm sure others have noticed it as well.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

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Yes, and the only ideas you casually happened to spitball were ideas that would cause your opponents to lose weight and credibility.
How fortuitous.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You can take this as a victory for yourself as I am obviously failing to provide a mountain of evidence to appease you.

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If you claim that someone cause a mountain, you do need a mountain of evidence, yes.
Shocking and unreasonable, huh?

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Except that that particular "speculation" includes, as mentioned previously, the leveling pot...In addition, citing trends in comparable products removes any claim of baselessness.

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You are correct, claims based on relevant trends are not completely baseless. But neither to trends offer incontrovertible proof of the direction in which SE's model will necessarily go. Trends offer evidence in favor of a possible outcome, not definite proof. Therefore, the people Saga criticized are still just speculating.

Back to your original point that Saga invalidated opinion, they did no such thing. They engaged with the evidence used to back certain claims. You have found Saga's engagement (and mine) unconvincing, and offered a rebuttal. That's how this process is supposed to work.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

Yes, and the only ideas you casually happened to spitball were ideas that would cause your opponents to lose weight and credibility.
How fortuitous.

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That's how I roll! /s


I grew up eating peanut butter and mayonnaise on toast. I think it's delicious, but just about everyone I have shared this with finds it repulsive. I grew up with it, so it's normal. Perhaps if others grew up eating it, they'd think it was normal as well. Perhaps I would hate it had I not grown up with it.

Do you think that's incredibly far fetched or insulting? This is the exact thinking that I was using in my comment from before. People are more accepting of things if they've never known any different. That is all. It's not a matter of being ignorant, it's just keeping with what is normal to you.



And an edit for your edit:

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

If you claim that someone cause a mountain, you do need a mountain of evidence, yes.
Shocking and unreasonable, huh?

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Again, I honestly do not care that much. My opinion of you and your "debate" style is set. Feel free to claim I am simply spouting off with no proof, we both know it's here.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

You are correct, claims based on relevant trends are not completely baseless. But neither to trends offer incontrovertible proof of the direction in which SE's model will necessarily go. Trends offer evidence in favor of a possible outcome, not definite proof. Therefore, the people Saga criticized are still just speculating.

Back to your original point that Saga invalidated opinion, they did no such thing. They engaged with the evidence used to back certain claims. You have found Saga's engagement (and mine) unconvincing, and offered a rebuttal. That's how this process is supposed to work.

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I like the condescension, nice touch. It lets me know that we're veering into troll territory rather than discussion.

Your argument works only if his statement was specific. It wasn't. It was a general statement. "The amount of self-entitlement and nothing but wild speculation from the anti-mooglestation side is unbearable."

That includes the people who clearly are offering speculative comments or simply stating that they didn't like the cash shop in general.

This is going to be my last post in this thread, the drama bores me.
I will try to explain my position and why i oppose this thread in a simple way:

Claim: Every item in the shop is content that would be ingame and is cut for profit.

This is speculation, we do not know how many , if any, of these items would have been created or even thought of if they could not make a profit out of it.

Claim: All the time spent creating cash shop items is time that would have been spent creating/fixing content for the game

This is speculation, not only we do not know how many people work on the items or if it´s the same team, but even if it was, nothing proves that there would be as many people employed if the content they make could not be monetized further.

There is no proof that less items in the shop would mean more work into the game or more content.

Claim: The profits from my sub are being used for x instead of y

Maybe so, but, so what?
Their profits are theirs to spend as they see fit, in the game, or otherwise.
They have every right to do whatever they want with their money and your right is to stop giving them said money if you disagree with their choices.

To Skivvy´s drama and accusations:
Quoting the great greek philosopher Emaeucliades:
"Whatever, dude/tte"

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

This is going to be my last post in this thread, the drama bores me.
I will try to explain my position and why i oppose this thread in a simple way:

Claim: Every item in the shop is content that would be ingame and is cut for profit.

This is speculation, we do not know how many , if any, of these items would have been created or even thought of if they could not make a profit out of it.

Claim: All the time spent creating cash shop items is time that would have been spent creating/fixing content for the game

This is speculation, not only we do not know how many people work on them or if it´s the same team, but even if it were, nothing says they would be working on the game as they may have never been hired to begin with, if their work was not to be monetized in the shop.

Claim: The profits from my sub are being used for x instead of y

Maybe so, but, so what?
Their profits are theirs to spend as they see fit, in the game, or otherwise.

To Skivvy´s drama and accusations:
Quoting the great greek philosopher Emaeucliades:
"Whatever, dude/tte"

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My special acknowledgement makes me feel warm and fuzzy. <3

maybe my point about the f2p model was missed, f2p MMO's has stuff in the CS that you have to buy if you want to advance, personally I think the reason the CS was added was because the sub model they have, they can't rely on the 3 or 6 month sub players to be there to renew so it's not a steady income, but with the cash shop they can keep the employees paid so they can keep making content, not sure about you naysayers, but I'd like to see 4.0 and beyond (with any luck it'll last as long or longer than 11).

let's not forget the "fantasia or riot" then the people saying "I'll pay $50 for a fantasia" then complain about $10 being too much.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I grew up eating peanut butter and mayonnaise on toast. I think it's delicious, but just about everyone I have shared this with finds it repulsive. I grew up with it, so it's normal. Perhaps if others grew up eating it, they'd think it was normal as well. Perhaps I would hate it had I not grown up with it..

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I have heard of such a thing (thank you Buzzfeed), but never have I encountered someone who actually ate it. I put it alongside circus peanuts, vegemite, and balut in the list of things I know that people eat and enjoy but there was no way I would.

Now Toast + Peanut Butter + just cooked Bacon? Food o' the gods!

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

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Well I'm not against fantasia nor against server transfer, recolours, and seasonal items so yes, nothing against making money through these services. All these things give money. Is SE broken? :)

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

I have heard of such a thing (thank you Buzzfeed), but never have I encountered someone who actually ate it. I put it alongside circus peanuts, vegemite, and balut in the list of things I know that people eat and enjoy but there was no way I would.

Now Toast + Peanut Butter + just cooked Bacon? Food o' the gods!

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I don't eat bacon, so it will be up to you to carry that torch! I've also never run into another person who partakes in the goodness that is PB&M toast. Perhaps that will be the sign of my soulmate ;)




Currently regretting my decision to google balut.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I don't eat bacon, so it will be up to you to carry that torch! I've also never run into another person who partakes in the goodness that is PB&M toast. Perhaps that will be the sign of my soulmate ;)

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Fair enough. Marshmallow fluff then. Though it's weirdly not available everywhere in the states. I'm not sure why the makers of this fine product would deny people of it's goodness, but who knows?

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Currently regretting my decision to google balut.

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Our network engineer at my last job admitted to enjoying it, but his kids and wife did not. It's gotta be an acquired taste and texture. I've never seen it on the menus of any of the filipino or vietnamese places I've been to. I suspect it's a secret menu item.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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I am sorry for the condescending tone. It wasn't intentional, but nonetheless I apologize. I intended my last post to convey that I agree with you to an extent: the claims are not completely baseless. And having read this reply, I went back and read the statement you quoted in context and it does seem too broad. That said, I agree my argument only works if we know who Saga was addressing from the beginning. What I've been trying to do is point out that the speculative assertions and general opinions are not the same thing. I made the mistake of assuming you considered them one in the same, and that you were saying arguing a point = invalidating an opinion.

Maybe we should just not answer people that try to start a flame war? He can have his opinion about it and I also answered him but maybe it would be better to go over it and let him be? The last I think three pages were nothing more than pickering between each other which is sad and I don't want this thread to be closed. (Still not sure how someone worked on company x but wrote quite some bad things about it..but whatever)

Its okay for me if someone would buy every single mogstation item, I can even understand them, since its hard to not just buy something that you really want and I bought things too. But at the same time I still find it sad that its now the second (or even third) unique mount that was released in the CS from a total of 5 (or 6 if you take the wedding mount into that count which is also unique). And than putting such a price tag on it. I mean it would be kinda interesting to know how many people (IMO probably only one) and how many working hours were put into creating it. Now take that expense and you probably wont even need to sell 5 of them to get the cost back. So why such a high price?

In my opinion (no facts :P): 5€ per mount would be enough and at least way more reasonable. They still get the monthly sub from us, so they should not need the mogstation to survive (unlike other games like Black desert..) and people are probably way more comfortable to spend this price on a digital product (that will be gone as soon as FF14 stops) so maybe you would even get more income from it than for that price?

I mean I have no problem buying the plush carbuncle for that price because its a real product that needs to be produced every single time but you only need to create a digital product one time.

In the end I would like to have no cash shop but since I know that it will stay here I at least hope that they decrease those prices and that they will not include more unique goods in there. :( At least give your players the chance to earn another version ingame and if the price is right, someone like me would buy both versions just because I love collecting mounts. But I wont buy it with such a price tag.

And it would be nice if we truly see a positive change in the game thanks to this. Maybe even more content on top of the already existing one. But instead of being able to produce things like Dead Dungeon next to three dungeons per patch, we get two dungeons and one new thing. So sadly I just cant see that this makes the game better.

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

The amount of self-entitlement and nothing but wild speculation from the anti-mooglestation side is unbearable.
Your entire arguments are nothing but wild guesses and negative, baseless conclusions on what you think that is actually happening within closed doors.

You have no data, no evidence, you have absolutely nothing that proves that the game is worse off due to the inclusion of the mogstation items and again, you have absolutely no proof whatsoever that the items would have made it into the game if the devs could not have monetized them.
Your entire complaints are based on imaginary offenses that may or may not be actually happening.


And while it is true that we cannot prove that mogstation does not affect the game whatsoever either, do remember that the burden of proof falls on you, because you are the ones complaining about it and making claims.

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Still saying we make speculation and it is bad when you wont proove anything either.....

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Originally Posted by SagaSoluna

A game studio has different teams assigned to different tasks.

The devs/progs that create Optional items may not even be the same people that work on game content and regular updates
You are assuming that creating optional content means less time or manpower creating the rest of content, but they may not even be related to each other and the optional item devs may not even be hired if there was no profit to be made.
Because then, a number of people who have purchased the item may have chosen to get it ingame instead, thus resulting in a loss of profits for the devs.
Not only that, but the effort and time required to obtain the item would have to be difficult and lenghty to justify it being free vs25$ , which would probably stll leave a segment of players without it.

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I could be wrong saying my sub money goes to the creation of items for the CS, so could you, saying the opposite so....proove it please ?
Othewise, you are just like us, making speculation, welcom aboard \o/

the mount looks....I don't know. there's something about it that creeps me out. Maybe if they made it look more like moglin, instead of a....tubby....horror film...i'd consider buying it.

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Originally Posted by Rhuazie

the mount looks....I don't know. there's something about it that creeps me out. Maybe if they made it look more like moglin, instead of a....tubby....horror film...i'd consider buying it.

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Yeah, after seeing it close ... it looks like some type of undulating larva/ termite queen

I think it's adorable.

That cost tho ;; If I had to money I'd get it. But $30 for an in-game item is a bit steep for me atm.

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Originally Posted by Celef

-bs-

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I said i would not post again but i could not help it when i continue to be dishonestly addressed.

1) You quoted an old post instead of my most recent one, where i better explain what i meant.
Did you do that on purpose, so that you could make an argument out of something that has already been addressed?

2) I have said it myself (heck, it´s even in the first post you quoted) that i am in the same boat as you, and yet you repeat something i have said myself, as if it was an argument against me.
I have never said that i know any more than you guys do, i have said that precisely because none of us know, making statements pretending to know how this subject affects the game is invalid and ridiculous.

I have explained this so many times, that the only reason why you guys would misquote me once again just to make an argument out of it, is that you are doing it on purpose.

Also, i find it kinda sad that the same ol ´people upvote any comment made against me, simply because it is against me, even when said comment is clearly wrong.
This smells of high-school recess.