The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Not when people die, sorry, no it's not efficient. Heal first, keep the party safe (and that doesn't mean keeping them on the brink of death), then worry about dps'ing. Pretty simple actually.

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Letting a tank get to 20% =/= Death. Just to clarify, dying happens at 0%.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i think you all are just want to feel better by pointing to the healer who doesn't dps and say: "i am better than you! i am better than average!" >.</

i think that's the real reason these kind of topics pop up every once a week and repeat over and over and over again over 37 pages now...

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Actually my FC mate was kicked for DPSing in a dungeon as a SCH (no one died or anything). It seems that people are very strongly for it and strongly against it with fewer people in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Letting a tank get to 20% =/= Death. Just to clarify, dying happens at 0%.

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Oh they do at 0%, I think we all know that, now don't we. Being smart about the fact that some healers do over dps and create issues where wipes happen is real. You do get that right?

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Oh they do at 0%, I think we all know that, now don't we. Being smart about the fact that some healers do over dps and create issues where wipes happen is real. You do get that right?

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I am simply saying that letting a tank drop to 20% is efficient. Some healers are bad at it, true. Just like some DPS are bad at their rotations, it doesn't mean that doing a rotation is bad.

Letting a tank drop more helps reduce the amount of stance dancing you have to do, resulting in less time wasted. It also results in less overheal % which is an efficient use of MP and GCDs.

I'd like to add, that generally you can see how fast the tanks HP is dropping - if you've casted 1 GCD of DPS and the tank is at 60%, then swap back because they are losing 40% per GCD. You really need to gauge it. As a WHM you can help the situation by throwing swiftcast Holy (stun), or a SCH by throwing down swiftcast Shadowflare (slow).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Actually my FC mate was kicked for DPSing in a dungeon as a SCH (no one died or anything). It seems that people are very strongly for it and strongly against it with fewer people in the middle.

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yeah, but the people who are for dpsing are very loud >.>

i don't like dpsing as a healer, but i know i should. and because of the loud people i am trying tanking now. i was a really good healer, on the healing side, not dpsing xD but it's no fun anymore to hear all the time healers who don't dps are lazy and bad and stuff.... so, i am now a really bad tank instead of a good healer, but at least i am attacking the monsters now ^^/

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Oh they do at 0%, I think we all know that, now don't we. Being smart about the fact that some healers do over dps and create issues where wipes happen is real. You do get that right?

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So because some people aren't capable of contributing to the group effort in more than one capacity we should just lower the bar for everyone at great cost to efficiency?

I mean, since I'm leveling a tank now I get healers who only heal all the time. Makes me sad since I main a healer and I know what their potential is, but I just smh and move on. You can't expect greatness from everyone. At the same time, why on earth would you say that the bare minimum is all that's required?

ETA, if the tank dying because you mis-gauged your DPS as a healer causes a wipe you can't recover from...did you get swiftcast?

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Originally Posted by Tint

yeah, but the people who are for dpsing are very loud >.>

i don't like dpsing as a healer, but i know i should. and because of the loud people i am trying tanking now. i was a really good healer, on the healing side, not dpsing xD but it's no fun anymore to hear all the time healers who don't dps are lazy and bad and stuff.... so, i am now a really bad tank instead of a good healer, but at least i am attacking the monsters now ^^/

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Could be. I've yet to be in a dungeon that either has someone yell at a healer for not DPSing or for kicking a healer who does DPS. I've only read about it. As someone who mained SCH in 2.x and played SCH/WHM a lot in 3.x, I've DPSd in every dungeon/raid that I've been in. So when I am on my SMN and see the healer is not DPSing, I just roll my eyes and move on. It's no different to me than a crappy DPS who stands in AoEs or does half the damage they should be.

When I'm tanking I feel really bad when the healer keep me at 100% HP at all times, It feels like I'm doing so bad that I need a babysitter all times, I feel like trash. Meanwhile when I see that the healer is able to DPS and keep me alive, even if I go under 20%, I feel confident, then I know that I'm doing a good job mitigating damage.

But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I've experienced some healers where the HP for the tank gets closer to 20 percent and playing as a dps one is lucky when you can actually catch a heal from some of them. That type of healer just doesn't quite get their role is healing first and dps'ing second.

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No, not at all. If no one is dying, then they are doing their job fine DPSing and healing. Keeping people unnecessarily topped off when they don't need to be topped off is useless. If you're playing a tank correctly, it's great if your healer let's you fall under 50%, especially WAR, since you get to put skills like Equillibrium to good use. I can't count the number of times I don't even touch Equillibrium because my DF healer can't let themselves see me under 90% HP. If you're mitigating correctly, and no tank buster is coming, there is absolutely no need for your healer to constantly keep you higher than 50% HP.

@Odett

In DF though, people dont know you, letting a tank dropping below 50% WITHOUT knowing that person or having already run with that person, is taking the risk to see him die in no time just because you THOUGHT he was capable of holding his own. In DF I prefer by far not allowing him to fall below 70% then taking the risk to see him die because of me overestimating his capacities and being kicked for not Healing right. This is the chances you take in DF....healers have been too often yelled at for allowing health to drop down below 60% and I personally dont allow that anymore, at least not in DF with unknown.

When I go in with an "unknown" tank, I play how I always play: giving my best effort and not holding anything back. If you're a receptive healer to your tank this is totally not a problem and not a hard thing to do. It's easy to adjust for a sub-par tank. I've never been yelled at for it, even in DF. I have only ever gotten yelled at in DF if I seriously f'd up and I know it.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

@Odett

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If I\\'m not playing with my friends, I\\'ll let the DF healer know that it\\'s ok to not heal me unless I\\'m about to die. In all honesty, in a 4 person dungeon, if a tank yells at you for letting them die because your heal was not fast enough and they went from 50% to 0%, they\\'re a horrible tank and are blaming you for their own shortcomings. I\\'m really sorry if you have to deal with crappy tanks like that, but it\\'s not a bad idea to give more tanks a chance too, you know? It\\'s kinda crappy when I play WAR or DRK, constantly use my defensive cooldowns, and I see a cure II after my self-heals, because it\\'s so much wasted potential.

At least concerning Whitemages, Holy drops an aoe stun, so most times a healer can Holy, alt tab their Aero's, then holy again for 9 secs of mitigation. All in all that's way better than the Cure II>Cure you're throwing at me when I grab the pack of mobs. I do agree that you picked a healing role, so stick with it, but the way FFXIV is played, most healers have blantant windows in the majority of content where they can definitely contribute damage. A lot of people come from other MMOs where the role definition is more pronounce, but this isn't one of those games. Healers can do ridiculous damage in this game.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

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Shouldn't be a big deal. After the first couple of pulls the tank should get the idea of what you are up to.

TBH I've only ever had 1 complaint of DPSing while healing, and in reality it was just a group of 3 friends in DF Trolling other players anyways so I don't even know if it counts. But by the number of Commendations and praise I have received for DPSing as a healer, I would say it's more appreciated than not. Even on one run where I almost did let the tank die because I miss clicked Clerics, I apologized to the tank and their replay was "No worries, I'm just glad you know what Clerics is."

Besides, I think it makes you a better healer all around when you at least make an effort, or make mistakes by trying to go above and beyond. It gives you a better understanding of mitigation and gauging HP levels.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I've experienced some healers where the HP for the tank gets closer to 20 percent and playing as a dps one is lucky when you can actually catch a heal from some of them. That type of healer just doesn't quite get their role is healing first and dps'ing second.

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Healers don't just roll tanks down a hill and see where they end up at the bottom. If they want to play with a narrow margin, they're weighing up all their tools constantly, judging the flow of damage in respect to their HoT's, responding to mitigation from the tank. If the tank dies to miscalculation, then yeah, the healer is bad. They have room to improve, now that they've toed the line and crossed it, but a botched job is still a wipe that could have been avoided.

A tank dipping to 2-3k HP where the tank is mindful of HP and actively mitigating alongside a healer who is on top of CD's and abilities with no deaths shows good awareness and synergy from the party as a whole, where the tank and healer give back and forth, and DPS are able to kill trash before the tank and healer's resources run out. Is every group capable of this? Certainly not, and while it shouldn't be considered normal play, neither should it be dismissed as poor play, since the players are at least playing decently to avoid deaths and perform efficiently, even if they do take a few risks that you don't agree with.

Dear Diary,

Someone that I've never met before, doesn't help pay my bills, or help me in any way was mean to me today in a video game. I know I will never see this person again and that this person is completely irrelevant and I could just ignore it and go on about my day. But, then I'd actually be a non cry baby, mature, person and tumblr just won't allow that.


Signed,
Sensitive Gamer.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I've experienced some healers where the HP for the tank gets closer to 20 percent and playing as a dps one is lucky when you can actually catch a heal from some of them. That type of healer just doesn't quite get their role is healing first and dps'ing second.

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Sorry for being a healer that uses my CDs and knows when it is a good idea letting drop the tank to 20% so I can dish more DPS because I know I can recover that.

Now I will cry in a corner thinking why I was given emergency cooldowns and DPS abilities while you spam mindlessly cure I/II.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Sorry for being a healer that uses my CDs and knows when it is a good idea letting drop the tank to 20% so I can dish more DPS because I know I can recover that.

Now I will cry in a corner thinking why I was given emergency cooldowns and DPS abilities while you spam mindlessly cure I/II.

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Here you go, have at it.

http://www.redstaplerchronicles.com/...04/kleenex.jpg

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

In DF though, people dont know you, letting a tank dropping below 50% WITHOUT knowing that person or having already run with that person, is taking the risk to see him die in no time just because you THOUGHT he was capable of holding his own. In DF I prefer by far not allowing him to fall below 70% then taking the risk to see him die because of me overestimating his capacities and being kicked for not Healing right.

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I always let DF tanks drop to around 20% if they aren't as sturdy as wet paper. If I play with friends, I can let them drop to 200 HP and less and get away with it. So 20% already IS my safety margin^^
It's all about reading the flow of battle and reaction speed. It has very little to do with trusting the tank to hold his own and a lot more with "Can I get out of CS in time and heal him up enough before the GCD is over and the monsters hit him again?".
Tank Skills factor in a little bit, but I'd be crazy if I relied on a random person to use the skill or ability I want him to use right then. So my calculations are usually not factoring in ANY help from the tank himself, which means a good tank will probably end up at 30% instead of 20 because he was using cooldowns, but in general I rely on myself to keep him alive and that's it.

I had a tank once who tried to forbid me from letting him drop below full HP, telling me that a good healer always keeps the tank topped off.
I didn't even argue, people like that are not worth my time. One of the rare occasions I actually abandoned duty pretty much right at the start :)
I never let people die in a df run (unless the whole party messes up mechanics and we die because it's impossible to outheal it), so I'm doing my job as a healer. I'm also contributing way more than I have to by maximizing dps as well.
It is NOT my job to help the fragile soul of a tank who is afraid to drop below 99% HP.

Please someone stop me if I'm doing it wrong, but I as a tank I try not to worry about the healer's job. Mine is hard enough! Am I a bad? I am new. >.<

I glance at my health on occasion and if it's in the last third or so I pop a cooldown. No reason to demand the healer git gud if I can contribute in some way myself and see if it makes a difference.

Even as a new tank, I fail to see how the healer's performance should affect mine. Unless, of course, I'm dead. If that happens it was probably my fault anyway.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Here you go, have at it.

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Amazing attitude you have there.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Amazing attitude you have there.

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Thank you, appreciated.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I glance at my health on occasion and if it's in the last third or so I pop a cooldown. .

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Tank cooldowns should be used proactively, not reactively. Reducing incoming damage helps the healer more than giving them more hp to heal up.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Thank you, appreciated.

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You got mad salty a few pages back because multiple people pointed out how utterly terrible your argument was and now you try to hide behind sarcastic replies because you have no counter argument. Why not just leave the thread if you have nothing of value to say anyway?

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Please someone stop me if I'm doing it wrong, but I as a tank I try not to worry about the healer's job. Mine is hard enough! Am I a bad? I am new. >.<

I glance at my health on occasion and if it's in the last third or so I pop a cooldown. No reason to demand the healer git gud if I can contribute in some way myself and see if it makes a difference.

Even as a new tank, I fail to see how the healer's performance should affect mine. Unless, of course, I'm dead. If that happens it was probably my fault anyway.

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Healers and tanks synergize in a way that allows both to contribute more than just tanking/healing. If you do a good tanking job, the healer doesn't need to heal as much and can throw in some dps as well. If the healer does a good healing job, you can go dps stance more often. After all, the biggest mitigation is killing stuff before it can do a lot of damage. In general, you want to make the healer's job as easy as possible by using cooldowns correctly, which normally means using them before damage comes in, not when you're almost dead.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Tank cooldowns should be used proactively, not reactively. Reducing incoming damage helps the healer more than giving them more hp to heal up.

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Yes, but since my highest tank is level 26 there's not a lot of scripted damage coming in yet. It's mostly AoE that I prefer to stun or avoid if at all possible. I mean, I guess I could be more proactive about having them up for auto-attacks...I'll try it. :) ETA that my health only gets that low rarely, not all the time. Mostly I'm hovering about 70-80%. Still, I'll admit that I'm bad about remembering to use them.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Healers and tanks synergize in a way that allows both to contribute more than just tanking/healing. If you do a good tanking job, the healer doesn't need to heal as much and can throw in some dps as well. If the healer does a good healing job, you can go dps stance more often. After all, the biggest mitigation is killing stuff before it can do a lot of damage. In general, you want to make the healer's job as easy as possible by using cooldowns correctly, which normally means using them before damage comes in, not when you're almost dead.

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See above ^^

Apart from the fact that I could be more proactive about my CDs, the point was that I just Tank to the best of my ability and let me healer worry about keeping me up...I have yet to try to tell the healer how to do their job (the exception being the one CNJ who didn't know that you could take of CS and thought their only ability was stone. Wish I was kidding)

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Originally Posted by Elazu

You got mad salty a few pages back because multiple people pointed out how utterly terrible your argument was and now you try to hide behind sarcastic replies because you have no counter argument. Why not just leave the thread if you have nothing of value to say anyway?

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If he was at least adding something to the discussion I would see it as fine but with starting the sarcastic replies they come across as just looking for attention to be blunt.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Yes, but since my highest tank is level 26 there's not a lot of scripted damage coming in yet. It's mostly AoE that I prefer to stun or avoid if at all possible. I mean, I guess I could be more proactive about having them up for auto-attacks...I'll try it. :)

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Heeeeyyy, I am leveling my 27 puglist. We should group up for instant queues.. er.. I mean for fun times!

At that level, you don't need to worry too much, the damage is fairly low. I would just use a cooldown at the beginning of each pull, so the healer can use that time to throw dots or whatever before going back to heal you.

At higher levels it's good to time things. For example you'll know that the next pull has a mob that does more damage than usual, so save your good cooldown for that. Or maybe it's the first pull and you're able to do a huge pull before the boss, maybe use Hallowed Ground and pull everything - and then have it back off CD for your last big pull. I did this specific strategy on Keeper of the Lake. If you're going to do something like that, give your healer a heads up, "Hey, going to pull everything and use Hallowed Ground." quick and easy.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Heeeeyyy, I am leveling my 27 puglist. We should group up for instant queues.. er.. I mean for fun times!

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YES. I will find you and /tell

Also, rest of your post. Duly noted - sorry to derail the thread.

As an aside, see how easy it is to take constructive criticism? I didn't even have to throw a temper tantrum and demand that everyone accept and love my playstyle for the beautiful and unique snowflake that it is. :)

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Originally Posted by Elazu

This has no place in group content. People are NOT entitled to screw over others just because they would prefer to play as terribly as possible.

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The healer was in a random dungeon. Not a raid, but a dungeon. Will dps from a healer speed things up? Yes. But in reality the result will be the same. Kill random things and move on. The only difference is that it will happen slightly fast. Have some patience for other people who aren't yourself.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Most NIN I have run with rarely bother with managing others threat and TP, usually because its completely unneccesary. We are talking about DF Expert roulette. Hell, you rarely have fights go long enough for people to run out of TP.

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You must not run with any Warriors, Dragoons, Monks, Bards, or Machinists that use their AoE skills on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You must not run with any Warriors, Dragoons, Monks, Bards, or Machinists that use their AoE skills on a regular basis.

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Yeah, Goad is pretty useful in 4-mans if you have a WAR or your partner DPS is a physical class, though Smokescreen and Shadewalker are fairly forgettable in dungeons. They do have nice raid applications for the opening pull—Screen the OT and Shadewalker the MT to make sure hate doesn't bounce much and the OT can use their highest hitting abilities right away without worry. But that kind of utility's generally just not useful outside of 8-man scenarios.

There's even a whm cutscene where a healer is refusing to DPS and it is causing problems and people are dying... healers ARE expected to throw out some damage too! If you are ONLY healing you are likely just standing around doing nothing a lot of the time OR you are overhealing needlessly. Of course it also depends on the quality of tank you get. If they aren't using defensive cooldowns at all, or are pulling ridiculous amounts of mobs in an untested roulette team your mileage may vary. Still, starting out a pull with SCH dots, AST dots, or regen and a bunch of holy spams is quite doable and helpful. It does take a while to get used to the speed necessary to pull it off, and keep people alive. Mostly just a lot of additional playtime.

That said, the SMN had no business demanding you play the way you wanted. Play the way your are comfortable, and try to adjust to what people expect as you can. Failing that, votekick, ignore, or leave. Usually I just ignore them completely like I don't hear them. Shame there isn't cross server blacklists.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

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That reminds me when I had a Tank call me and the other Ninja lazy for not using Shadewalker during the start of the twin knight phase (2nd or 3rd phase? The one where the knights have to be split up) to help him get aggro on the knight (because you definitely need help building up aggro). Is there actually a use for using Shadewalker there other than fucking the entire thing up? I used it on him hoping I'd get pulled to the other knight intending to burst that one with as much DPS hoping the other tank not the best, and then have that knight murder that tank and then call him out, but luckily things went his way and I was stuck on that knight. The initial burst was over, so it's not like I could have ripped aggro off a decent tank anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Well, you know we Ninjas have to also manage others threat and TP, while keeping up our own dots, and debuffs. Though with most of these healers argument, that's completely optional.. so why should I bother anymore? I think I'll just stick to using my level 1 ability over and over and over again. I just want to dps. I didn't sign up for that other stuff.

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That's cool, you really don't have to. Seriously, you don't. I mean, with the tank and healer playing the roll of dps, it's like you don't even exist. I mean, you can do all that stuff, it would make the dungeon go faster if you did, but it's optional. I mean, hell, healers are required to dps so you don't have to.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

That's cool, you really don't have to. Seriously, you don't. I mean, with the tank and healer playing the roll of dps, it's like you don't even exist. I mean, you can do all that stuff, but it's optional. I mean, hell, healers are required to dps so you don't have to.

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(hey, psst, that's not how it works. stop being salty and read what good points are being made in this thread so your responses don't make you sound petulant)

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Originally Posted by Odett

(hey, psst, that's not how it works. stop being salty and read what good points are being made in this thread so your responses don't make you sound petulant)

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True story, he makes it sound like either

a) There is a hard cap on DPS, so if a healer DPS's more then a DPS can sit around because you can't get any more DPS anyway, or
b) He is a bad player and likes to promote bad playing mentality

I am sure it's neither, but that is how it comes across.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...There's good points being made? All I've seen over these 40 pages is that people classed as DPS don't know how to dps apparently, even in savage and need to be carried by healers.

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Selective reading? I've only read pages here or there (probably half in total) and have not seen a single post suggesting this. I've just seen a lot of healers saying they don't want to DPS and others saying that there is little to no reason for them to not DPS in most situations.

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Originally Posted by Odett

(hey, psst, that's not how it works. stop being salty and read what good points are being made in this thread so your responses don't make you sound petulant)

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...There's good points being made? All I've seen over these 40 pages is that people classed as DPS don't know how to dps apparently, even in savage and need to be carried by healers.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

That's cool, you really don't have to. Seriously, you don't. I mean, with the tank and healer playing the roll of dps, it's like you don't even exist. I mean, you can do all that stuff, it would make the dungeon go faster if you did, but it's optional. I mean, hell, healers are required to dps so you don't have to.

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I would just like to remind everyone that each dungeon has objectives that are the same for all members of the group: they don't change based on your role. You role exists to give you priorities but the goal is to clear the objectives by whatever means necessary, which includes helping your team out in ways that don't necessary fall into your (arbitrary and subjective) "job-description". If you're not trying to clear the objectives but have devolved into coloring in the lines of your "role" that you picked for yourself, you're doing it wrong. And this goes for all the roles, not just the healer.

So....will we come back here again after 3.2 comes? At least put a spin on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...There's good points being made? All I've seen over these 40 pages is that people classed as DPS don't know how to dps apparently, even in savage and need to be carried by healers.

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That is NOT the point. The point is, there are times in content when healers stand around doing absolutely nothing. They should contribute with all those DPS moves that they have. They can easily stop DPSing to heal when heals are needed, it's not hard. Healers are not being asked to carry anyone, they're asked not to be lazy and stand still or emote or whatever that isn't helping the run at all in any way when heals are not required. Any little extra helps, it's not about turning them into DPS themselves, but to contribute in their down time.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...There's good points being made? All I've seen over these 40 pages is that people classed as DPS don't know how to dps apparently, even in savage and need to be carried by healers.

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Carried by healers? Nah, it's legitimately necessary for healers (and tanks) to DPS in the later half of Savage. Unless you're implying the DPS of groups like Elysium and Lucrezia are sub par.