Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Seifa

Ok, it's nice and dandy that Yoshida spoke to us and he aknowledged that Minuet is difficult to use but his last sentence makes me think that BRDs, from their point of view, should have so much less damage than other dps and comparable to a WAR?

Ok...

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WAR has a higher DPS output than bard/machinist more often than should happen right now with some exceptions. WAR as a class has benefited quite well from HW. So it would seem more like from SE's perspective BRD and MCH should have lower DPS output than tanks and every other DPS class on top of having their movements restricted, their auto-attacks cancelled and cast timers like a mage. I will wait to see how the class changes after make their adjustments but really, REALLY not getting my hopes up right now.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

ofc MCH is a whole other problem and i can see where ur coming from but since ive tested him as well. i have to say MCH works as he should. ok maybe a bit much rng. the only fix he needs are tweaks to the dmg numbers wich and i agree with you here are to low.

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Correct. The over all play style of MCH is absolutely fine, they did a great job. Only thing they need is a potency/modifier increase and maybe a few cooldown tweaks on some skills but other than that they all good.

It was only a matter of time.... figured this would happen since they like to "kite" aka runaroundlikeabloodyheadlesschickenmakinghardfortankstogetaggrooffthemwhilestillshootingsaidtarget.

i hope SE coming good fix bard job. now i play without WM and like it. Bard Not caster! Never! http://s017.radikal.ru/i408/1506/b7/22cc9eccee6f.jpg

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Greetings,

I'd like to share a comment from Yoshi-P in response to all the feedback about bard.

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Thank you.


Also, I knew they weren't going to remove WM. That would be silly... but making it easier to use should help the people who seem to have trouble doing so.

Well, now we have to wait and see what the devs implement to deal with the issues mentioned. Hopefully they do something that will feel natural to BRD.

No hope at all. It doesn't adress the issue and he still thinks it's fine at lv60 and on top of that he says that he will have to keep an eye to see that it's not buffed a lot when it actually needs a huge buff to be of any use at all. And to be balanced with the other jobs dps.

And this is not a matter of opinion it's a fact...

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Originally Posted by Seifa

Ok, it's nice and dandy that Yoshida spoke to us and he aknowledged that Minuet is difficult to use but his last sentence makes me think that BRDs, from their point of view, should have so much less damage than other dps and comparable to a WAR?

Ok...

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I second this. War and drk are doing higher dps than brd and mch. It may not be much but still. I don't think a slight weapon damage increase would be a bad thing.

Sounds like they will do some fixing.. thats good!

Well if you take off the cast timer for wanderers minuet which it looks like they will do that is definitely a step in the right direction! when its time to burn toss it on and fire without having to miss a beat. i do like the burst potential with the ability...

make sure your dots are up before you turn it on.... then toggle burst.. cds/barrage->emp > sidewinder hs bl me etc. its pretty hard hitting.., then switch back to 2.x mode.

cast timer being eliminated will help to make it easier to deal with.

If your doing 2.x dps and switch it on for your CD burn then take it back off, i think it would net higher overall dps.

Good start.. now make it so WM doesnt turn autoattack off but instead slows the autoattack rate?

So seems like WM is going to stay.

Thank you Yoshi-P for acknowledging our concerns ^_^

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

No hope at all. It doesn't adress the issue and he still thinks it's fine at lv60 and on top of that he says that he will have to keep an eye to see that it's not buffed a lot when it actually needs a huge buff to be of any use at all. And to be balanced with the other jobs dps.

And this is not a matter of opinion it's a fact...

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This so much. I don't want it to be easier sliding into and out of WM, I want a reason to stay in WM and destroy mobs with arrows of justice! I'd much rather see potency bonuses to bring it more line with other dps, especially on the skills that require WM. You know, to actually sacrifice mobility for damage.

Edit: MCH is another can of worms, and I don't think potency bonuses are enough to save it. The RNG has probably got to go.

I am happy that they have agreed there is an issue, I am horrified that they still want to force this playstyle down our throats. I don't want to be a bow wizard, I don't care about numbers of damage, I care about how the class feels when playing it. I don't want cast times without auto attacks and I most definitely do not want to be stance dancing on a single role job.

Making WM a toggle would be the same as removing it from the game, except with worse QoL. Unless they make WM worthwhile in between your Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrows, the Bard rotation would just become (press WM button -> IJ -> EA -> press WM button -> HS/SS x4-5 -> press WM button -> IJ -> EA -> press WM button....). And that would feel every bit as stupid as it sounds. WM would just be pointless red tape with no meaning.

It almost sounds like SE might be a little too convinced of their own internal theorycraft math, and don't fully understand the complexities introduced in real situations... but trying to judge tone from a translation is folly. I wouldn't harp too much on the "not largely increase" either, that could mean any number of things. But I do hope they don't just make it a toggle and call it a day; without other significant changes that'd just be foolish.

Why is it that bards forget that directlyrics increase dps to other classes? If you have 2 casters in your party and using magic buff, they dps they gain is your dps, not theirs and a parser won't reflect it that way. Raid groups are more then aware of this. If your doing 900-1k dps and you increase 2 mage dps by 8% over the whole fight and the mage are putting out 1100 beforr you sing, and 1188 at the end of a fight due to your singing that puts your true dps at 1074,+ while the 2 casters is still 1100(true dps). That means your dps is as good and based on some other bards parsing at 1k, even better. They can only do that extra dps with you there, it's your damage, a parser won't show it that way. And then add in mobility in turns like t12 for instance a bards mobility is allowing your other dps to keep high numbers. If you want the same numbers as other dps, then they have to take away all your songs and utility

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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By that argument NIN should be nerfed due to them bringing everyones dps up 10% 1/6th of the time. We've been all over this "their dps is low because support" bs before...including all the other jobs buffs. We aren't a Support Job, we're dps WITH support, like every other dps in the game. Mobility is what we brought to the table and got us nerfed once already, take that away and we're another dps.

Very depressing to read this sentence:

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we will be paying close attention to the balance of each skill so the damage output at level 60 does not largely increase.

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So, he is only acknowledging that the benefit is not good enough when you first get it and that it's a pain to put on and off. Specifically he is saying they will NOT address the shit poor DPS. Sigh

Why are people cheering this? Yoshi is all mighty and powerful...... Nothing is being increased right now. All that is said that they are making it so BRD can now "stance dance" easier and for what? Maybe a few extra DPS? Micro manage like crazy to gain a slight bit of damage?

This is not a solution to the problems with BRD right now and we are only seeing the beginning. The scaling has been fairly consistant since they started making BRD weapons gain less damage then other damage dealing classes. The gap percentage has continued to widen as gear levels became higher and higher. Jumping in and out of WM is not a solution.

@Urielparadox and whomever liked that post. WHAT? So wait, you are attempting to quantify the low damage based on having 2 casters in your group? Guess what, that isn't a thing anymore. Groups can now have no caster damage (exception healers) in there groups without having 2 of the same job or more melee then ranged, are you really wanting content that can't be accomplished without caster damage? Should I really tell my groups MNK and DRG to get rekt and go find a new group because we need someone to make up for my damage? Also, what is this mobility in turn 12? Picking up Blue? Because, those hits for 3 and 4 damage were doing a whole heck of a lot while you had that debuff. SMN was by far better for that then any other job in the game.

I don't understand this massiv change at all for the minuett.....
Would i like to play like a caster i would play a Summoner or Blackmage.
I choose it first because the mobility and support, i don't need first place in dps but behind offtanks or whitemage is so wrong......

I bet they don't test it at all the minuett, they only summone a monster like a dummy and saw only higher numbers with minuett......ignorance to the players.

They should ask, would you play like a caster or not.

My answere? NOOOOO!!!

Sorry but i hate that minuett because it feels clunky, it don't fit the bard style.....
too massive change with it.

My example is that an example of how with 2 caster in a party with a bard causes a bards dps out put to be the higher in the party then the 2 casters. With just 1 caster in the party the dps gap is lower and barely there. Nin is a party wide buff and a self buff, and yes the design team calculates that when plan these things. If They Buff You To be The Same power Of Any dps, You Automaticly become more more powerful then any other dps. SE is trying to increase party diversity and decrease job stacking. If you did the same dps as a Blm or smn, which you aren't that far behind according to parses shown in other threads. Nothing will be done till we find out how strong you are in 8 man content you claim you job is broken, which its not. You have to consider your jobs effect on the party, because se dpes. Which you refuse to. The job needs tweeks but it's not broken. Complaining about your own solo dps and ignoring your function on the party doesn't help plead your case. Nor does it help SE figure out what to do. What if SE's developers are squeezing out 100 more dps because they know how to use the new tools and players just haven't figured it our yet? Maybe that's why they are saying it's where it needs to be.

Edit here is a second example. During progression players take more damage and die, healers us mp and eventualy need it refresh or everyone dies. Mage balled is keeping your other dps both physical and magical alive so they can keep dps ing. Without that deat dps drops down to 400. You are the one giving the mp to keep those party members alive and keeping their dps high, without it the party would wipe earlier and progress slower each time. This also counts towards your dps (from a developmental standpoint) this is why progression grubs will continue to have bards because what good is a healer without mp. It's all about balance.

Yoshi.P should've just said that they'll rework WM into another song and let us use EA and IJ without WM. Bards isn't Bow Mage!

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Originally Posted by Kayko

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Well it's a start. They acknowledged the issue. Right now the song isn't worth using besides the start of the fight because 3s cast time is absurd.

What I think they will decide to do is buff WM on multiple facits:
1) Make it a 1s cast or instant cast like every other job's stance change.
2) Put auto attacks back in. The logic that they don't want the dps available while moving is stupid on a class that has a plethora of off GCD skills that are not affected by minuet's cast time.
3) Buff the % damage boost to the song to something near 30%.

I don't think anything short of this will fix it without reworking the way they have bard altogether. If the song existed as an option to bridge the gap to other dps while sacrificing most of our mobility I am fine with that. Prior to HW bard could top DPS in fights with a ton of movement, I think SE didn't like that for whatever reason.

But ya the other thing is the base weapon damage on bows is incredibly low compared to other classes. That could be buffed to make up for some of the difference as well. Right now at best we do about 70% of everyone else besides MCN. That is way too low. Bard should be about 90%+.

Good to see feedback on these things so quickly.

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Originally Posted by Arrik

I'd much rather see potency bonuses to bring it more line with other dps

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You are never going to see this. They were at one point, and got nerfed because in combination with their songs it made them desirable to the point of excluding other DPS jobs. BRD/MCH have abilities that justify their spot even if their DPS is lower, within reason, and it's that desirability that they're going to balance around, so all jobs feel wanted and useful.

You can argue and shout about this until your voice runs ragged, but in a game focused on team efforts there needs to be consideration for the enjoyment of all players, not just ones of your thinking. If you must be top or even competitive DPS, you are playing the wrong role. If you want to contribute to the success of the group, you are playing a much wanted and strong role.

And that blm is doing 600 with or without the bard song? If it's with then make sure you calculate the blms added dmg back into your bards and out of their's. That is a dps differance of 15% give or take a few decimals. Now you are at 950 to a Blm/smn 1100, that's still 15%. I'm not saying your perfect as is. I Think WM should have a 1second/insta cast time so you can change without messing up your abilty, and a small buff to the dmg increase it does.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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And my example shows that NIN contributes 1.6% dps to each pt member. If each pt member is doing 900 dps and the NIN is at 1100, his dps is now 1215 according to your logic, and thats assuming the slashing debuff is coming from somewhere else. Now of course the 900 is low on everything but mch, so the nin's dps, according to your own logic, would be even higher. So my argument is, by your logic, NIN is more support than brd is, and nobody seems to have a problem with them having more damage too. And before you start in on brd mobility, thatis taken away with WM. Keep in mind, I'm not for brd dpsing like a melee while retaining mobility, I'm saying when they act like a turret they should dps like one.
Progression is not only about picking members off the floor, it's about meeting mechanics checks. Take brd/mch as your only dps and have fun in EX primals. Oh wait, ppl are kicking mch during progression runs! Fat lot of good that utility brings them.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

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Except it shows that the jobs utility isn't worth bringing a mch, and it isnt worth bringing more than one brd to fill a dps role, and yet there is no problem bringing 4 nin, 4 mnk, 4 drg without risk of failing dps requirement, the main focus of the role. And as soon as our "utility" comes into play, our main role falls farther behind. We weren't nerfed because dps, we were nerfed because mobility while doing so. And now we have no mobility.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

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Wow, this is just so backwards thinking. Do BRDs get a buff when they only have 1 caster in the party? is that buff doubled when there are no casters??? Along those lines, Do BRDs get a buff because the rest of the party is doing what they are supposed to be doing and not taking extra damage thus the healers MP is fine? Is there a buff for when melee don't TP starve themselves? No, BRDs are simply penalized for just having the songs, THEN penalized on top of that for using them.

What facts you are missing is that groups are already penalized for having multiples of jobs in the terms of the LB, it doesn't build as fast with more then one of the same job in the group. There is no stacking of groups.

Think of this group makeup, PLD, DRK, SMN, BRD, DRG, MNK, WHM, SCH.... That is a very valid group composition, there should be nothing wrong with this, but, as you are saying, this is wrong. No NIN and no double caster. Of those jobs in that group, which one do you think is first to be removed? The ones doing 1200 damage or the one doing 800 (effective lets say 900ish with foes for the 1 caster) or replace the BRD for a NIN who is going 1200 and brings a buff to increase everyones damage?

There is 8 man content in the game, it has been tested. This is not working, for lack of a better word, it is broken.


I'll add that I am not against WM in its current form and creates a "bow mage" There is still plenty of movement available to have it work out fine for most encounters. Yes, the ability needs to be put more on a CD like Cleric Stance is, but it shouldn't be a type of stance dancing mechanic that you put it on for 1 or 2 shots then take it off again. The job itself in it's basic form needs work. Again, BRD should not be penalized for having the ballads, then penalized for using them (even removing the damage penalty is not enough as the 3 second cast time is a base issue)

I would actually prefer to see the bonus damage while in WM to be removed honestly. More can be done to make WM useful without having a flat % added in damage. Things that would affect party makeups like the one I listed. Could do things like having Foes also reduce targets physical resistance while under the effects of WM. Or, Mage's Ballad also increase TP regen by a slight amount and vice-verse for Army's. Damage increases could come for doing things like Dot criticals have a 75% or even 100% chance to reset Bloodletter or Heavy shot gets a 30-50% chance to proc Straighter Shot. So much more can be done with Wander's Minuet, increasing the percentage or reducing it's cast time is NOT a solution and does nothing to address the raw damage difference between DAMAGE DEALER jobs, in which a BRD is. BRD is not "Support," there is no "Support" category in this game.

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Originally Posted by Arrik

dps requirement, the main focus of the role

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You are playing the wrong job.

According to the bard dps threads I'm reading bards are at 950, not 800. Your taking my statement and lowering bard numbers but keeping other numbers the same. Not only that I'm giving you facts that's SE has to consider when balancing a job and you twisting my words in a way I have no idea how you did it.

For parsing on a dummy versus coil. Take for instance a monk. It's mew abilities won't shine until a mob has a 8+ second phase change. Unless your dps is super high you aren't seeing this in bismark ex. However currently in coil you see multiple phase changes like that in a lot of fights. T2, T5, T9, T10, t11, t12, t13. How can you parse an ability on a dummy or in a fight without phase changes with extra down time that is designed to be used when those things happen

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Originally Posted by Viviza

You are playing the wrong job.

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'Cept I'm pretty sure when I queue it's as a dps....maybe this is the bard you are looking for? http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Bard

Edit: It's also not the only job I play, or the only role. But it does queue as a dps and as such should be able to contribute dps enough to clear content, even in DF when you can and will get multiple of certain jobs within a role.

And also, if that is the Bard you are looking for, I'll fill that role too. But you better give me my loot for contributing nothing to dmg to full support.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

on bismark ex its not worth it because you need to save your Cd's for the carapice.

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Carapace is easy to break

I burst on the 1st adds and still broke the carapace one shot.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

According to the bard dps threads I'm reading bards are at 950, not 800. Your taking my statement and lowering bard numbers but keeping other numbers the same. Not only that I'm giving you facts that's SE has to consider when balancing a job and you twisting my words in a way I have no idea how you did it.

For parsing on a dummy versus coil. Take for instance a monk. It's mew abilities won't shine until a mob has a 8+ second phase change. Unless your dps is super high you aren't seeing this in bismark ex. However currently in coil you see multiple phase changes like that in a lot of fights. T2, T5, T9, T10, t11, t12, t13. How can you parse an ability on a dummy or in a fight without phase changes with extra down time that is designed to be used when those things happen

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First part, Yes, I have taken into consideration the one person who has shown a 950ish parse using double dex pots and completely controlled environment where movement is never needed compared to natural rotations for other jobs. Simply put, a BRD does do more damage in WM full time but in actual content, the gains are minimal at best due to content design.

Second part, Those types of phase pushes are not honestly that much of an issue due to melee having a sort of gap closer and have the base raw damage to make up for these phase changes. Those phase changes affect each and every damage dealing job in the same fashion. To add to that, BRDs also have a builder with having to apply straight shot, Windbite, and Venom bite for each of these phase changes. That argument is completely invalid.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

Edit here is a second example. During progression players take more damage and die, healers us mp and eventualy need it refresh or everyone dies. Mage balled is keeping your other dps both physical and magical alive so they can keep dps ing. Without that deat dps drops down to 400. You are the one giving the mp to keep those party members alive and keeping their dps high, without it the party would wipe earlier and progress slower each time. This also counts towards your dps (from a developmental standpoint) this is why progression grubs will continue to have bards because what good is a healer without mp. It's all about balance.

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I see since you edited your post here, I thought I would take a moment to respond to this as well.

You have just agreed to a major flaw in the BRD design. "During progression" See, this in itself is just bad design. After progression, ballads are for the most part useless and actually, can cause problems. I had no use for Mage's Ballad after only a few kills in FCOB turn 4. There was no beneficial gains from even having the ability in what was currently the most difficult content in the game (this was in it's non echo form as well), It wasn't very long in where Foe Requiem became more of a problem then useful as it caused odd phase pushing. While the ballads did help, at no point were they needed to learn the content. This is also taking into consideration that the game between 130 BRD and 130 (any) wasn't as large as it is right now.

Overall numbers have increased, and rather drastically. Potency can be looked at as a percentage based on weapon damage. Using numbers for the sake of numbers, 200 potency on a weapon that does 20 damage is the same percentage difference a 200 potency for a weapon that does 24 damage as is its the same gap for 40 vs 44. As of HW, the weapon damage difference is now 7 points. That creates a large basic gap between BRD and others. This type of scaling is going to continue only creating a larger gap and the iLvl increases and new content is released.

The most obvious problem with the "Bards/Machinists are support, they don't need to deal damage!" argument is that, for that to be valid, they would need to design every given encounter to REQUIRE a BRD/MCH or else they would simply be omitted from groups entirely when they could just add another DPS to kill things quicker.

The second problem is that the duty finder still doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role, hence you can easily get stuck with two or four 'support' jobs, thus crippling the party's damage output and making for not so much of a fun time for anyone involved.

It's all complete nonsense. They would have to effectively remake large chunks of the game to make that work. BRD sitting at roughly -10% DPS was fine. This new paradigm is not.

Edit: Just going to quote myself because I thought of a few more things:

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Simple answers:

1. Because the duty finder doesn't recognize 'support' as its own role. The last thing you want is to get four supports instead of three DPS and a support because nothing else showed up.

2. Because player expectations are already set. Most players expect both jobs to be able to *deal damage*. Furthermore, thematically speaking, there is zero replacement for someone who likes archery or guns and wants to deal damage at the same time, hence you would undoubtedly lose the support (heh) of all of those players if you dropped them into a full support role.

3. Because you would then need to design raids and possibly even dungeons to REQUIRE BRDs/MCHs or else they get dropped from parties entirely for more damage dealers. Remember that their auras scale on the number of players they are affecting, and are thus considerably less useful in 4-mans.

4. Because we only have two jobs that would actually qualify for this "support" role, which would result in a severely underpopulated role should they add 'support' to all parties and raids as dedicated slots of their own. They would need to, *at a minimum*, add another job that qualifies as 'support' to maintain the balance.

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Already started to lvl another class to 60.
I don't actually see that much hope in that case.

Bad design is bad.

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Originally Posted by Entropic

Already started to lvl another class to 60.
I don't actually see that much hope in that case.

Bad design is bad.

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Probably safe to do, but I think they'll streamline it and get bard up to par where they should be.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

Probably safe to do, but I think they'll streamline it and get bard up to par where they should be.

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WM isn't something you can easily streamline. You'd need a major change made to it and the abilities dependent on it. Whether the devs can actually look at their design and actually deal with the flaws remains to be seen. It's happened with WAR, so there is some hope.

I'm glad we got an actual response and they'r going to be working on it.
Also glad they did hear the concerns about WP being a useless skill and we might get a bonus fix to that too.

But right now I'm very afraid of what they'r going to do with WM, since what is being said to us doesn't seem to mention the core issues with minuet, but rather mention the duck-tape fixes that were proposed by people.

The people playing for bards chose this path because I don't want to be a caster,but want to be range dps. Could take a BLM or SMN if I wanted to be a caster. By restricting movement for bards,making them pillars+time caste abilities,SE breaking all the charm of the selected class. I think enter WM was a mistake. Why not just add the new damage skills+1 more buff by 20% damage without any restrictions in movements and caste skills.

In regards to Warden's Paean, I really hope they do not change it too drastically, as it seemed like a really neat and unique ability, especially for PvP.

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Originally Posted by nickx

In regards to Warden's Paean, I really hope they do not change it too drastically, as it seemed like a really neat and unique ability, especially for PvP.

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There are pvp skills for pvp.
PvP balance should never ever affect PvE in this game where the PvE is the main course and PvP is a side dish.