Instanced Raids Unveiled!

... level cap does not mean r50 can't enter but it mean that r50 will be lower to r30

A couple JPN posts about the difficulty of the dungeons. What I'm reading sounds pretty good so far. I like a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

こんにちは。

今回実装されるレイドダンジョンは、一言で言えば「高難易度」と想定されています。中でも特に皆さんが気にされているボスモンスターの難易度について、開発チームと確認してきました。

ゼメール要塞の場合ですと、特技ランク50の8人PTが役割を明確にしたうえで、且つ単に通常の敵の強い版ということではなく、ボスモンスターにあった専用の戦い方をしないと倒すことができないとのことでした。

私自身もまだ触れていませんが、これは楽しみですね :cool:

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The upcoming dungeons are estimated to be, in a nutshell, "really hard". I also confirmed the dungeon boss's difficulty with the dev team.

If you ever hope to defeat The Dzemael Darkhold dungeon boss, you will need to clearly assign roles amongst your specialized party of 8 rank 50 players. Furthermore, you can't just think of the boss as just a strong version of an ordinary monster. You will need to use special, boss-specific strategies to achieve victory.

I haven't played it myself yet, but I am looking forward to it :cool:

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

こんにちは。

レイドダンジョンの人数制限に関して、吉田Pと確認してきました。

パッチ1.18で追加される予定のレイドダンジョンの人数制限は

• トトラクの千獄：4人PT限定
• ゼーメル要塞：8人PT限定

となっています。

ここでいう「4人PT限定」というのは、「4人でPTを組んでいる必要がある」の意味で、4人以外（例えば3人PTや5人PT）では入場することができません。8人の場合も同様です。

今 回の初のレイドダンジョンの導入に当たっては、バランス調整の観点およびサーバー負荷の観点から、上記のような決め打ちの人数制限となっていますが、今後 実装していくものに関しては、実際に1.18でプレイしていただいたフィードバックや利用頻度／状況などを踏まえ、人数制限に関しても様々なバリエーショ ンのものが実装されていく予定です。

なお吉田より、「8人PT限定のゼーメル要塞のボスからの報酬は相当良いものですので、是非ともトライしてみてください！」とのことでした。

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I confirmed the party member limit with Yoshi-P.

The party member limits for the dungeons introduced in patch 1.18 is:

• The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak: 4-man limit
• The Dzemael Darkhold: 8-man limit

This means that for the 4-man dungeon, you must be in a party of 4 and only 4. If you are in a party that has over or under 4 members, you will not be allowed in the dungeon. Same goes for the 8-man dungeon.

We have decided on those hard-coded party member limits for now due to balance and server load concerns as a starting point. We will then gather feedback and input from the players as they play through the content in patch 1.18 so that we can further experiment with the party member limit and try to incorporate more variation into the game.

YoshiP says, "The 8-man party dungeon, "Dzemael Darkhold", has a reeeaaallly good boss drop, so please try it out!"

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and its possibly 2 hours a day
that adds up quick you know


a dungeon in wow takes 3 hours to complete, and they can only be done once a week....technicaly, thats even worse

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Never playing Warcraft; I still feel that playing the same dungeon over and over just because it can be done daily instead of weekly is very unappealing.

As a multiple R50 player who is waiting patiently, starting over on yet another class just to enjoy one low level dungeon isn't appealing either.

...again i hope they are hiding something...more...

Also, confirmation from a dev on the french forums that dungeons will be UNCAPPED: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...331#post192331

Thank you SE!

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Originally Posted by Katie

Never playing Warcraft; I still feel that playing the same dungeon over and over just because it can be done daily instead of weekly is very unappealing.

As a multiple R50 player who is waiting patiently, starting over on yet another class just to enjoy one low level dungeon isn't appealing either.

...again i hope they are hiding something...more...

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well its a start
we also have the upcoming ifrit battle to look forward to also
and thats not counting future planned content

its unfortunately the nature of the mmo that it does take time to add dungeons and such, so you wont get them just shooting out on a bi weekly basis

but this is a start

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Also, confirmation from a dev on the french forums that dungeons will be UNCAPPED: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...331#post192331

Thank you SE!

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Hmm. Welp, that doesn't bode well for game balance and content longevity, but perhaps it won't turn out as bad as the rank 35 NMs did.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Hmm. Welp, that doesn't bode well for game balance and content longevity, but perhaps it won't turn out as bad as the rank 35 NMs did.

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it isnt about game balance and longevity

its a mid rank dungeon, not endgame

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Hmm. Welp, that doesn't bode well for game balance and content longevity, but perhaps it won't turn out as bad as the rank 35 NMs did.

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Personally I feel that leaving the dungeon uncapped will encourage more people to play it rather than vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

its unfortunately the nature of the mmo that it does take time to add dungeons and such, so you wont get them just shooting out on a bi weekly basis

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Yep, which is why they need to implement the means to foster more player-driven content so that players can entertain each other without having to rely on the devs to feed them all the time.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yep, which is why they need to implement the means to foster more player-driven content so that players can entertain each other without having to rely on the devs to feed them all the time.

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the only MMO currently on the market doing this(to an extent that doesnt break the game, im looking at you city of heroes!) is lego universe

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

the only MMO currently on the market doing this(to an extent that doesnt break the game, im looking at you city of heroes!) is lego universe

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lol. Love that game. Just saying!

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

lol. Love that game. Just saying!

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which game?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

which game?

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Lego Universe! lol

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Lego Universe! lol

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yeah it is a pretty awesome game, i go back and pound out every achievment every time they add something new(which is often)
i of course dont have the game for myself, got an 8 year old, she loves it too

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

the only MMO currently on the market doing this(to an extent that doesnt break the game, im looking at you city of heroes!) is lego universe

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EVE Online does it as well. There is hardly any traditional "story content" or "quests" created by the devs, yet the players still have a lot of stuff to do to keep themselves occupied.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

it isnt about game balance and longevity

its a mid rank dungeon, not endgame

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Just because it's mid-rank doesn't mean it can't be properly balanced. The open-world NMs couldn't be properly balanced just because of the nature of being open-world, but instances can be balanced.

FF14 is in a unique position compared to other MMOs because all of your classes are on the same character. In other MMOs, you can't just use your max level character to grab raid gear and give it to your lower level alts because all the good raid gear is character-bound, which is why level caps aren't as necessary. If you could do that, it would be detrimental to game balance.

In FF14, all of your "alts" (i.e. different classes) are on the same character, so you could essentially twink your lower classes with raid gear using minimal effort as your overpowered rank 50 main class.

(In other games like Diablo II, you can do this, but the item and loot mechanic is different so the principles don't necessarily apply the same way).

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

well its a start
we also have the upcoming ifrit battle to look forward to also
and thats not counting future planned content

its unfortunately the nature of the mmo that it does take time to add dungeons and such, so you wont get them just shooting out on a bi weekly basis

but this is a start

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Oh yes the upcoming... We all know the potential Final Fantasy has 'upcoming'. Thats simply why we are all here right now, the only problem is that the start is nearly a year from release. But it is a start...

I love that this game has become more and more playable. However now that it is playable, i'd like something to play wit.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Just because it's mid-rank doesn't mean it can't be properly balanced. The open-world NMs couldn't be properly balanced just because of the nature of being open-world, but instances can be balanced.

FF14 is in a unique position compared to other MMOs because all of your classes are on the same character. In other MMOs, you can't just use your max level character to grab raid gear and give it to your lower level alts because all the good raid gear is character-bound, which is why level caps aren't as necessary. If you could do that, it would be detrimental to game balance.

In FF14, all of your "alts" (i.e. different classes) are on the same character, so you could essentially twink your lower classes with raid gear using minimal effort as your overpowered rank 50 main class.

(In other games like Diablo II, you can do this, but the item and loot mechanic is different so the principles don't necessarily apply the same way).

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Except the r30 raid gear isn't going to be better than r50 gear, which is what any r50 is REALLY going to want. You're not going to need r30 raid gear to run the r50 dungeon, so the only reason a r50 is going to running a r30 dungeon is for vanity.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Except the r30 raid gear isn't going to be better than r50 gear, which is what any r50 is REALLY going to want.

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R50s also really want R30 gear to equip on their R30 classes. R30 raid gear is going to be better than normal R30 gear that we have now. If all you have to do is run a R30 dungeon in EZ Mode as your R50 class, then there's no point at all in considering any other gear option at rank 30 because the best gear at rank 30 is also stupidly going to be the easiest gear to acquire.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

R50s also really want R30 gear to equip on their R30 classes. R30 raid gear is going to be better than normal R30 gear that we have now. If all you have to do is run a R30 dungeon in EZ Mode as your R50 class, then there's no point at all in considering any other gear option at rank 30 because the best gear at rank 30 is also stupidly going to be the easiest gear to acquire.

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Who cares if r30 gear is better than normal rank 30 gear when I can level my r30 in whatever armor I want? It's a sub-class at best, not my main class. If there were a cap on the dungeon, I would have no interest in the gear at all. I would spend my time doing fail leves and level my r30 to r50 and just get the r50 gear, period.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

R50s also really want R30 gear to equip on their R30 classes. R30 raid gear is going to be better than normal R30 gear that we have now. If all you have to do is run a R30 dungeon in EZ Mode as your R50 class, then there's no point at all in considering any other gear option at rank 30 because the best gear at rank 30 is also stupidly going to be the easiest gear to acquire.

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Your forgetting one thing. The R30 gear and R30 dungeon are not ment for players who have already gottn to R50.

All my DoWDoM classes are 47-50... So... Thanks for the 1 dungeon SE. ;) Haha

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Originally Posted by SniperRifle

All my DoWDoM classes are 47-50... So... Thanks for the 1 dungeon SE. ;) Haha

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This is the reason the r25 dungeon is uncapped.

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Originally Posted by Katie

Your forgetting one thing. The R30 gear and R30 dungeon are not ment for players who have already gottn to R50.

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I'm not forgetting that at all. People who have a rank 50 class also probably have multiple lower-rank classes as well. It would be all too easy for them to twink their lower rank classes using their high rank class to farm raid gear.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

This is the reason the r25 dungeon is uncapped.

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I'll be doing both simply because they are new. I'm just being a funny guy.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

This is the reason the r25 dungeon is uncapped.

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... caping would be nice for the 50ies since they would have a chance to at least have a challenge. caping doenst mean "you cant enter" it just adjusts your lvl to the dungeon.

Another smart way would be to scale the mobs to the highest player in the group but then the drops would have to be adjusted as well. But anyways. One thing i know is... you will need crafts for repairing only in the future... unless they change a lot but then i wont have to bother with crafting.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I'm not forgetting that at all. People who have a rank 50 class also probably have multiple lower-rank classes as well. It would be all too easy for them to twink their lower rank classes using their high rank class to farm raid gear.

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And so what? Why is this a problem specifically for you? Who cares how decked out my lvl 30 THM is when my main focus in my lvl 50 PGL? I don't get how this breaks the game?

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Originally Posted by Anty

... caping would be nice for the 50ies since they would have a chance to at least have a challenge. caping doenst mean "you cant enter" it just adjusts your lvl to the dungeon.

Another smart way would be to scale the mobs to the highest player in the group but then the drops would have to be adjusted as well. But anyways. One thing i know is... you will need crafts for repairing only in the future... unless they change a lot but then i wont have to bother with crafting.

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If you want a challenge, then enter it at r30. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

If you want a challenge, then enter it at r30. Problem solved.

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And what can i do if all my classes are above r30? we need high level content, more hard NM's, dungeons, quest, etc. They should start giving more content to the ppls that have almost a year in the game.

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Originally Posted by elreed

And what can i do if all my classes are above r30? we need high level content, more hard NM's, dungeons, quest, etc. They should start giving more content to the ppls that have almost a year in the game.

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yes, we need more high content
the r30 dungeon isnt high content, its mid content

so the solution, ask for more high content(anyone remember we also got an ifrit battle coming up?)

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Originally Posted by elreed

And what can i do if all my classes are above r30? we need high level content, more hard NM's, dungeons, quest, etc. They should start giving more content to the ppls that have almost a year in the game.

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See the part marked "r50 Dungeons"

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

And so what? Why is this a problem specifically for you? Who cares how decked out my lvl 30 THM is when my main focus in my lvl 50 PGL? I don't get how this breaks the game?

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#1 - because you screw over all the crafters who are making normal-tier rank 30 gear. If all I have to do to get the best rank 30 gear is to steamroll a dungeon with my rank 50 class, there is no reason at all for me to buy gear from a crafter. This is bad for the economy.

#2 - because it ruins the perceived value of raid gear that it was actually something that players "earned". If you had to complete a dungeon at rank 30 to get rank 30 raid gear, you must have put in a lot of effort, and your rewards are well deserved. If you just steamroll a rank 30 dungeon at rank 50, you didn't put in any effort at all, and your good rewards will have been gotten undeservedly.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

#1 - because you screw over all the crafters who are making normal-tier rank 30 gear. If all I have to do to get the best rank 30 gear is to steamroll a dungeon with my rank 50 class, there is no reason at all for me to buy gear from a crafter. This is bad for the economy.

#2 - because it ruins the perceived value of raid gear that it was actually something that players "earned". If you had to complete a dungeon at rank 30 to get rank 30 raid gear, you must have put in a lot of effort, and your rewards are well deserved. If you just steamroll a rank 30 dungeon at rank 50, you didn't put in any effort at all, and your good rewards will have been gotten undeservedly.

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1) im mainly a crafter, 3 50 crafts about to be 4, i wont feel screwed over in the slightest

2) its not endgame gear, who cares how you earned it, people buy gear too, that isnt very earned now is it, lets punish all them by making all gear non sellable so everyone has to earn it too

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

#1 - because you screw over all the crafters who are making normal-tier rank 30 gear. If all I have to do to get the best rank 30 gear is to steamroll a dungeon with my rank 50 class, there is no reason at all for me to buy gear from a crafter. This is bad for the economy.

#2 - because it ruins the perceived value of raid gear that it was actually something that players "earned". If you had to complete a dungeon at rank 30 to get rank 30 raid gear, you must have put in a lot of effort, and your rewards are well deserved. If you just steamroll a rank 30 dungeon at rank 50, you didn't put in any effort at all, and your good rewards will have been gotten undeservedly.

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#1 is a moot point when the gear is all unique and untradeable as it is.

#2 I put my effort in to GET to r50. I shouldn't be FORCED to get a challenge at r30, I should get a challenge at r50. Running anything below lv 50 content is not using my skills to their maximum efficiency, which, to me, is not a challenge at all.

While you are showing off your capped r30 raid gear, I'll don my r50 gear and we can see who gets more looks.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

#1 - because you screw over all the crafters who are making normal-tier rank 30 gear. If all I have to do to get the best rank 30 gear is to steamroll a dungeon with my rank 50 class, there is no reason at all for me to buy gear from a crafter. This is bad for the economy.

#2 - because it ruins the perceived value of raid gear that it was actually something that players "earned". If you had to complete a dungeon at rank 30 to get rank 30 raid gear, you must have put in a lot of effort, and your rewards are well deserved. If you just steamroll a rank 30 dungeon at rank 50, you didn't put in any effort at all, and your good rewards will have been gotten undeservedly.

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it wouldnt be any problem if the drops in the dungeons are just materials to craft a weapon/armor, etc so the crafter has something to do, and give the importance they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

A couple JPN posts about the difficulty of the dungeons. What I'm reading sounds pretty good so far. I like a challenge.

"The upcoming dungeons are estimated to be, in a nutshell, "really hard". I also confirmed the dungeon boss's difficulty with the dev team.

If you ever hope to defeat The Dzemael Darkhold dungeon boss, you will need to clearly assign roles amongst your specialized party of 8 rank 50 players. Furthermore, you can't just think of the boss as just a strong version of an ordinary monster. You will need to use special, boss-specific strategies to achieve victory."

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Hi Renta,

This is GREAT news! :) My excitement in the new R50 Dungeon just increased tenfold. :)

Thanks for the translation from the JP Forums!

I can't wait. :)

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

#1 is a moot point when the gear is all unique and untradeable as it is.

#2 I put my effort in to GET to r50. I shouldn't be FORCED to get a challenge at r30, I should get a challenge at r50. Running anything below lv 50 content is not using my skills to their maximum efficiency, which, to me, is not a challenge at all.

While you are showing off your capped r30 raid gear, I'll don my r50 gear and we can see who gets more looks.

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You're missing the point completely. You don't have to do the dungeon at all, ever. If your focus is a 50 job then do the 50 dungeon. If you have a job at 30 you are leveling then do the 30 dungeon. Why is this so difficult to understand?

He will show off his level 30 gear on his level 30 job, much like the 50-60 AF gear or the RSE or JSE gear in FFXI. You showed it off and used it as an accomplishment for that specific level range. Once you got higher or better gear, like relic, you used that as you're new show of accomplishment.

You are not being forced into anything because the dungeon is optional. If you choose to do the optional dungeon then you must abide by the rules for that battle. Much like certain bosses are resistant to certain spells...nobody ever considers that as "forced" into playing a specific style, it just is part of that one segment.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

#1 is a moot point when the gear is all unique and untradeable as it is.

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You still don't get it. It's not a moot point.

Crafter Bob makes a rank 30 sword and wants to sell it.

Scenario with rank cap: I buy the sword from Bob for now because I need a new weapon in the short term. Using Bob's sword, I have an easier time completing the dungeon content in the hopes of finding a rank 30 "uber sword". Bob earns a living as a crafter, and I participate in the economy to further my battle class needs.


Scenario without a rank cap: I see Bob has a sword for sale but I don't care in the least because I'll just steamroll the rank 30 dungeon with my rank 50 class over and over until I get the rank 30 "uber sword" drop. Bob's worth as a crafter is diminished, and neither of us participate in the economy, diminishing it as well.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

#2 I put my effort in to GET to r50. I shouldn't be FORCED to get a challenge at r30, I should get a challenge at r50. Running anything below lv 50 content is not using my skills to their maximum efficiency, which, to me, is not a challenge at all.

While you are showing off your capped r30 raid gear, I'll don my r50 gear and we can see who gets more looks.

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Why is your rank 50 raid gear so valuable and so prestigious? It's because it was hard to get and you had to earn it. If rank 30 gear was hard to get as well, it would also carry a feeling of worth and prestige.

This isn't about making rank 30 raid gear more valuable than rank 50 raid gear. This is about maintaining a sense of perceived value for ALL items, regardless of rank.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

You're missing the point completely. You don't have to do the dungeon at all, ever. If your focus is a 50 job then do the 50 dungeon. If you have a job at 30 you are leveling then do the 30 dungeon. Why is this so difficult to understand?

He will show off his level 30 gear on his level 30 job, much like the 50-60 AF gear or the RSE or JSE gear in FFXI. You showed it off and used it as an accomplishment for that specific level range. Once you got higher or better gear, like relic, you used that as you're new show of accomplishment.

You are not being forced into anything because the dungeon is optional. If you choose to do the optional dungeon then you must abide by the rules for that battle. Much like certain bosses are resistant to certain spells...nobody ever considers that as "forced" into playing a specific style, it just is part of that one segment.

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Likewise, no one is making any of you run through the dungeon as a r50. So how is your argument any better than mine?

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Renta,

This is GREAT news! :) My excitement in the new R50 Dungeon just increased tenfold. :)

Thanks for the translation from the JP Forums!

I can't wait. :)

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You're welcome :)

And yes, I am looking forward to the challenge as well.