I know y'all don't wanna hear this...

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

But what if I'm a DPS who finds it fun to AE down a massive pack of trash with my burst window? What if I'm a healer who is bored out of his mind because there is nothing meaningful to do as we pull 2 mobs at a time?

I think more players than not would find solo pulls so tedious and dull, and not fun for many.

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Which is why we have limiters to 2 packs during dungeons so everyone can handle things at a happy middle.

Once again, thank you SE for the limiters.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

This has recently become me, and I'm quite proud of this fact, but my "other MMO" upbringing has me ALWAYS sensitive to a healer struggling, and I always adapt. It's happened twice tonight and there was a glaring situation of... well everything I put in the OP. Someone actually said "I'm sorry, I just don't know when to heal a warrior..."

THAT IS 100% THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT FOR THAT "WHEN TO HEAL" FACTOR BEING A THING!

You heal when someone is hurt, if that's what you need to do! The potentially augmented speed of the run comes more from the tank safely pulling bigger while the healer spends more time keeping him up, not from the healer feeling obligated to DPS while said tank is pulling big, spacing out mitigation to last, and giving DPS (and MAYBE the healer) their big pile of death jollies! That poor healer! When we died on the first double-pull I apologized and said "I will pull slower, it's ok," and they of course had to retort with "you don't have to." But courtesy is what it is and I of course slowed down.

Sorry, I'm ranting and I meant to just respond to what you'd said.

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Well said. I admire a tank/healer partnership which can manage wall to walls without any problem. But, not everyone can. Like you, I learned from a certain other MMO to always be sensitive to a healer struggling and adapt.

You comment regarding the "when to heal factor" is insightful. The community is creating its own healer issue due to groupthink. It should be a no brainer when to heal a tank. Instead, we have healers stuck like in a deer in the headlights because they can't decide whether to heal or deal damage when a tank's health drops. It's frankly stupid.

Also, I don't understand the pushback which often occurs when it's clear either the tank isn't up to the task of mitigating the damage of a wall to wall pull or the healer isn't up to the task of healing all the damage. To me, it's just common courtesy to slow down after a trash wipe to give time for the other party members get up to speed. Do they feel like they are being judged? Is it considered weak if they need a larger safety margin? It takes far less time to complete a series of trash pulls in smaller bites than it takes to recover from a several party wipes when the party can't pull off wall to wall pulls.

As an aside, I applaud your decision to slow down. It shows you have a good head on your shoulders. I hope to be your healer sometime.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The tanks job is to hold emnity. Refusing to do so is a reportable offense. If a player wants to take their time and go slow, the trust system is there for players to use.

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It's beyond sad if people actually act like that. How petty can you be? Finish the duty and do something else. What a Karen attitude. Do people want to talk to the dungeon manager afterwards, too? Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The tanks job is to hold emnity. Refusing to do so is a reportable offense. If a player wants to take their time and go slow, the trust system is there for players to use.

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And the DPS's Job is to deal damage, not to pull more stuff. If players want to speed run with all wall to wall pulls, the pre-made system is there for players to use.

This argument goes both ways. If a Tank pulls a pack and is single targeting through them, and a DPS pulls a second pack and the Tank doesn't swap to them or to AOE, that isn't, in fact, reportable. The Tank is still holding enmity. The DPS just did something stupid and is eating dirt as a result.

"You spank it you tank it" isn't as toxic a mentality as "If I pull more and you refuse to agro it, I will report and votekick you" is.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But also if I want to go slower I should totally he able to control how everyone else on the dungeon plays with me

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If you're the Tank or Healer, then yes?

You aren't guaranteed a clear speed when you do group content. If you want that, you have Duty Support or pre-mades. People doing random ques do things at whatever the lowest common denominator's pace is. It's like when you're on a highway, you can go as fast as you want (up to the speed limit), but if you get stuck behind a tractor in a now passing zone, you go the tractor's speed. That's how shared spaces work and how mature adults who are socially adjusted deal with them.

I swear, it's not casuals that are the problem in this community, it's people who hare zero social skills. Can you imagine getting out of your car on that highway to berate the tractor driver for going to slow? Driving your car into its bumper and trying to push it to go faster? No sane driver would do those things, yet that's the functional thing you're doing as DPS pulling the next pack when the Tank isn't doing it.

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

I'd wager the main reason dps are so rarely in need is because they're double the slots than healers/tanks!

Also everyone plays a dps due to the "no responsibility required" - mindset people couple with that role but imho, as a dps it's your job to kill things the quickest possible - which is just as important as properly tanking and dps-ing as a healer!

If you really think expecting people to give it their everything is toxic... Just stick with SP games, or look at co-op titles to play with like-minded slow-enjoyers~

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The thing is, DPS is low pressure because (a) there's no way to tell if a DPS is underperforming unless you run a TOS violating parser and (b) berating said DPS for failure to do so would be a TOS violation and risk a ban.

That is, If you have a tank, healer, and DPS that are doing good and one DPS just hitting a single AOE attack over and over, you can't report that, and you often can't see it (if it's not a caster). So the DPS knows that even if they totally fail at their role, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, if the tank or healer fail, it's very apparent in the form of the party wiping and having to run back. And as much as people say "death isn't a big deal", it is to a lot of players. DPSers simply don't have that issue in casual content because there either aren't enrage timers/DPS checks, or they're so lenient it doesn't matter.

The reason DPS is never in need is because of how much less stress it is because failure isn't apparent to other players and the DPS player is insulated from pretty much any negative repercussions for failure anyway.

Or basically this:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

there is a whole myriad of issues once you scratch the surface but in XIV, dps is the most stress free job in casual content because you actually arnt required at all. There are no job specific responsibilities DPS need to perform, there is 0 pressure, and you dont actually need dps to finish dungeons. It just goes to show how worthless the dps role is in casual content.

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100% agreed. (Happens from time to time.)

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

It's beyond sad if people actually act like that. How petty can you be? Finish the duty and do something else. What a Karen attitude. Do people want to talk to the dungeon manager afterwards, too? Give me a break.

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NGL its sad that you think asking people to perform the bare minimum of your role responsibilities is a Karen attitude.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

NGL its sad that you think asking people to perform the bare minimum of your role responsibilities is a Karen attitude.

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I agree. We already distinguished between new players, first timers, and undergeared players and having patience for this. I have a ton of patience for new or less skilled players.

But if your idea of fun is just moseying around and purposely never learning how to pull...wanting to take in the sights and sounds, well...really please go with friends who are into this pace or use the trusts. I'd suggest that a great majority of players enjoy more efficient runs and the outliers would be such people who refuse to learn how to pull a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I agree. We already distinguished between new players, first timers, and undergeared players and having patience for this. I have a ton of patience for new or less skilled players.

But if your idea of fun is just moseying around and purposely never learning how to pull...wanting to take in the sights and sounds, well...really please go with friends who are into this pace or use the trusts. I'd suggest that a great majority of players enjoy more efficient runs and the outliers would be such people who refuse to learn how to pull a dungeon.

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I have infinitely more patience the moment "one or more members has yet to complete the duty" pops up on the screen. I sandbagged hard in the endwalker final trial to allow a first timer to actually see the important bits the other day. But by the time you finish the MSQ you should have at minimum the fundamentals of the job you completed it on. If you enter a dungeon and dont speak up that you are new to the role then I am going to assume you have an idea of what you are doing. I am not going to sit here and background check everyone I play with. That would be Karen behavior.

Most of my ire is directed at people who are far enough into the game and should know better by now.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

NGL its sad that you think asking people to perform the bare minimum of your role responsibilities is a Karen attitude.

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Wall to wall pulls is not "the bare minimum". The fact that single pulls exist shows that single pulls is the bare minimum, mostly as there's no way to actually pull less since all members of the pack will agro together.

You're asking for something above the bare minimum then lying about what the bare minimum to falsely support your position that your ask is more fair than it is. Again, you can premake groups if you want to speedrun content.

People only willing to play at bare minimum should do everyone else the favor of staying out of group finder until or unless they encounter something that cannot be done with trusts.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And the DPS's Job is to deal damage, not to pull more stuff.

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Then report them and stop pretending to be a vigilante.