The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Nobody wants to hear about who's pegging who thanks

I'm gonna agree with Ren (shocking), and say we should make Druid the 'simple healer that has very small DPS button count'

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Dw./..wha da..? o.O

I...I think you broke me here, Roe. O.o

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

https://i.imgur.com/PpITACa.jpg

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lol

Okay, you gave me a laugh for that one. Liking this (you still should admit to being selfish, btw...)

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

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NOOOO, you asked a question. My answer is: I'm fine with a Healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with - that's what WHM is RIGHT NOW.

Your question asked to you is that YOU are the one who sees something wrong with a Healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with. In other words, your question applies to you, not to me.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Edit: Also hate to be that person but we aren't going to get a branching job because SE hates those like the plague. *rolls eyes* Personally I think they should just get over it and reintroduce it for the other classes.

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Honestly, this is true.

Which is why the reality is, the Dev solution is likely to be leaving Healers as they are, or leaving WHM as it is and adding GEO/Druid as the complex version of it.

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EDIT: Though, let's be real: They aren't doing that, either.

I think 7.0 is going to be interesting. We have to see what the AST rework is. That will probably dictate the direction they want to take Healers in, or even IF they're willing to take ONE Healer Job in a more complex direction.

I suspect not, but that's really going to be what tells us their plans.


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EDIT2: Though...it kinda gives me an idea. You guys are going to hate it, though. But...what if...

Let's see if I've reached my post limit for the day or if I can post a new thread on the topic...

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Okay, you gave me a laugh for that one. Liking this (you still should admit to being selfish, btw...)

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I shouldn't do jack.

What happened was I skimmed your post cause it was longer than my college thesis. All you could've said before was, "oh, that works. But to make it more in line with the rest of the game, just add that as a job stone and call it "druid" or something."

But you're an ass for treating me like a dog over a misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

picture

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https://64.media.tumblr.com/05c29c35...zh7ho1_400.gif

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I...I think you broke me here, Roe. O.o

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https://i.gyazo.com/60665b3d2fc8b8f1...06a3548735.png

https://i.gyazo.com/57912bdd13503480...0d469a0e7d.png

Ich kann ein bisschen deutsch sprechen. Not much though since I haven't bothered with it since high school 15 years ago. I know how to ask where the toilets are, and what your favorite color/subject is, and to say 'my badger is {color}'.

But yes, you two are ironically asking for the same thing. CNJ IS Druid (in the german localization).

edit: holy hell it's hard to do Island Sanctuary on a client language you can't understand, but I just want to mention that we got scammed on EN, the mammets have individual names in German. The Granary manager is called Kornelius for example

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Originally Posted by Renathras

NOOOO, you asked a question. My answer is: I'm fine with a Healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with - that's what WHM is RIGHT NOW.

Your question asked to you is that YOU are the one who sees something wrong with a Healer designed to be easy to heal with and easy to do damage with. In other words, your question applies to you, not to me.

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No, my question was with in the lines of "WHM is simple for the new healer" why are you so against it GROWING MORE with that idea?

As for AST I sincerely pray if they screw up the rework, they get roasted. Its not going to happen, but they would deserve it at that point.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I shouldn't do jack.

What happened was I skimmed your post cause it was longer than my college thesis. All you could've said before was, "oh, that works. But to make it more in line with the rest of the game, just add that as a job stone and call it "druid" or something."

But you're an ass for treating me like a dog over a misunderstanding.

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I LITERALLY DID THIS.

SEVERAL TIMES.

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Also, I didn't "treat you like a dog". Firstly, I don't have a dog. Secondly, the only thing I do with dogs generally is pet them or hug them. Some friends of mine have a super nice dog that I give walks to when they're gone and she's such a good dog, she gets all the pets and pats and huggles.

You lied about what I proposed.
You lied about what I want.
You kept doing it after I said it wasn't what I want.

That's what being an ass is.

If it was a genuine misunderstanding, all you had to do was say "Oh, I get you. Yeah, that's fair.", and that would have been the end of it. The only reason I even got cross with you was because you kept doubling down.

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Look Ty, we do this too much.

If you ever don't understand what I'm saying or it's too long, just ask for a summary instead of assuming it's the worst case scenario possible, leading to me calling you out over it and then you acting offended to save face afterwords.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

edit: holy hell it's hard to do Island Sanctuary on a client language you can't understand, but I just want to mention that we got scammed on EN, the mammets have individual names in German. The Granary manager is called Kornelius for example

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Wait...what?

That's not cool! Not cool at all!

I mean...it's cool THEY get it, but not cool we got scammed!

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EDIT:

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

No, my question was...

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I can only go with what you typed, man.

And what you typed was my position: What's so wrong with having a Healer that is designed to be simple to heal with and simple to DPS with - like WHM is right now?

You can argue it doesn't fit the game, but it fits it fine, you just don't like it. It's viable, it works, etc etc. You don't like how it does those things, but that's not the same as it not doing those things.

What's so wrong with a Healer with a 5 button DPS system that a 6 button DPS system somehow solves? Why can't we keep the 5 button system? And no, it's not that it doesn't work - because it does. Why draw that arbitrary line around "It needs one more DoT"?

Anyway, the question is mine, not yours: I'm not the one who has a problem with a Healer designed to be simple to heal with and simple to DPS with. In fact, that's what I like and what I want. It's you that wants to change that/has a problem with it.

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EDIT: Going to save posts for today:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I didn't lie.

I didn't read most of it. There's a difference.

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When I told you - over and over - that wasn't what I wanted and you said it was: That was a lie.
(And you KNOW it was, because I've offered to give up anything multiple times before, and I've even chastised you for selfishness before for not being able to give up even one, contrasting with me being willing to give up any three.)

When you insisted I wasn't willing to give anything up: That was a lie.

When you said that I wanted WHM for myself: That was a lie

When you said I wanted that and say no one can speak for changing it: That was a lie.

When you said I opposed SGE being made the easy Healer: That was a lie.
Worse: That was YOUR position, not mine, that SGE could not be the easy one. YOUR position in the past has been that SGE in lore was supposed to be gigabrain and have these hard to use Nouliths, so it shouldn't be the easy Healer. That was YOUR position to COUNTER me when I suggested SGE as the second choice for easy Healer, which I suggested since people like Roe want WHM's aesthetic and since unlike SCH, SGE has never existed in a different form, so it wouldn't require anyone sacrificing anything (other than "not getting SGE, too" levels of selfishness), whereas SCH being the easy one would require the past SCHs who liked the more complex version to give that up. SGE, on the other hand, has never BEEN complex.

Those are several lies you should know the answer to because we've discussed these issues before. That last one was even in the post you were replying to. And even if you didn't read it, you were speaking about what you thought my position was from a previous discussion (several, actually) where I actually took up the OPPOSITE position and where that was YOUR position, not mine; YOUR position to COUNTER mine - so you shouldn't have even brought it up if you remembered it wrong. "I didn't read these posts" is no excuse for you referencing PRIOR posts that you SUPPOSEDLY DID read, and lying about THOSE instead.

You may not have read the specific proposal here, but after 2-3 posts of back and forth of me telling you you weren't addressing what I was saying, you should have stopped to read my post or asked for a summary. You certainly shouldn't reply to a post you haven't read with a rebuttal, because that makes the person you're responding to THINK YOU READ IT, since your response is a rebuttal against it. Your reply in that case should have been "Can you give me a summary version of what you're proposing?", not a rebuttal to a proposal you now say you didn't even read before trying to counter.

I didn't lie.

I didn't read most of it. There's a difference.

The arguing was starting to get senseless. Although there could be improvements for both sides. Whether people say they agree with it or not, admitting to not reading much of a post you are responding harshly to is not a very good look. There is a high chance that the statement claims will be false if no verification is done. I have read through long posts too recently when we were discussing what changes Sage could go through. I verified if my first iteration of understanding was right by trying to summarize what I got out of it ... which it wasn't quite on the mark. It prompted some clarification on points that were not understood.

Now it is true Renathras sometimes makes really long posts. I can see he is also passionate with the topics on hand. It is a weakness that I also go through as well. Some of my FC members say that I sometimes scare people off with too much details all because I didn't want to miss something important while chatting with no editing. Some posts cannot be helped to be long depending on what is asked for discussion, but it is important to note that too much detail may fatigue the point made. Too much overload of data may require a person to read a post for a much longer period to link the paragraph points together.

In any case, we seem to have an understanding for what is proposed for the topic, right? New players can really only pick Conjurer if they want to start healing right away. Arcanist is an imperfect choice since it only allows you to heal when you get SCH from it at 30. It seems our proposals are to either change our current 4 healers to have more damage buttons in the rotation, or to branch off another healer from Conjurer to preserve an easy play style. Druid / Geomancer it looks like. This will still require some quest work and balance work to readjust spells, but one would hope this will reduce some workload having some spells shared between White Mage and Druid. Another thing to note to only changing the current healers is that AST and SGE needs the player to clear certain MSQ quests to be allowed to use them. It will not change the new levelling experience as much if we only change AST and SGE.

Regarding the discussion, I would like to argue that actually only 13 angels can dance on a needle's point.

Regarding the topic, back then I followed bad advice and chose conjurer as my first char. Bad choice. I had no idea the gameplay would be so utterly monotonous, so much it has had a negative impact on FFXIV as a whole. From level 4 to level 90, put one dot on a target and spam stone. That's it. For close to six months. The only exception would be duty wall to wall pulls, where it could be optimised to spam holy, and where healing could be a challenge especially given my skill at that point. (On the boss fights it's back to place one dot and spam stone, of course. That, and run around like a headless chicken following floor markers that are not explained in the game.)

It's also a fact that at no point during leveling was dps checks in group content a thing.

Which put me very strongly in the camp of "for all that is Holy <ahemm, sorry>, make healer dps more interesting". So what if inexperienced players don't optimise their healer dps in easy content? It doesn't matter.

If you can give dps a 25 step opener (that is not required outside hard content), and everybody a how long series of mechanics (that are kind of partially required occasionally also outside hard content), you can give some options to healers. Especially the only healer job you can stumble into as your MSQ job. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

In any case, we seem to have an understanding for what is proposed for the topic, right? New players can really only pick Conjurer if they want to start healing right away. Arcanist is an imperfect choice since it only allows you to heal when you get SCH from it at 30. It seems our proposals are to either change our current 4 healers to have more damage buttons in the rotation, or to branch off another healer from Conjurer to preserve an easy play style. Druid / Geomancer it looks like. This will still require some quest work and balance work to readjust spells, but one would hope this will reduce some workload having some spells shared between White Mage and Druid. Another thing to note to only changing the current healers is that AST and SGE needs the player to clear certain MSQ quests to be allowed to use them. It will not change the new levelling experience as much if we only change AST and SGE.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

https://i.gyazo.com/60665b3d2fc8b8f1...06a3548735.png

https://i.gyazo.com/57912bdd13503480...0d469a0e7d.png

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I know it might have gotten missed due to me editing it in later, but I'll restate it again and again: I support Renethras' idea of making Druid the 'simple, low DPS button count healer' because it is already in the game. Conjurer is called Druid in the German localization. In fact, remember the story I recounted about the level 89 CNJ in Praetorium? With a change like this, making CNJ a valid option, that player would be allowed to safely do their 'no-jobstone' character without being targetted by evil elitists like me with their horrid suggestions like 'hey if you get your job stone you get like 15+ more abilities'

I think I do remember a post from someone claiming to only use Conjurer and using a cry emote when a role quest said they were not a healer as a Conjurer. The post was overall ruled as a disagreement by the majority of us since there was no logical gain from doing it. It was all done just to make it harder on oneself so that it wasn't just Aero, Stone and Holy spam to victory. In a way, it was probably simulating the WoW Classic WotLK experience where we did have to actually spam heal the tank to keep them alive.

I think it will be an alright idea to discuss on adding another branching Druid Job or redesign Conjurer to preserve the current play style. Maybe there could be some form of resource or buff reward to make the next Aero or Stone hit harder when healing spells are used. Playing through all the classes and specializations from Warcraft and FF14, I am adaptable to any of the classes.