Is Bow's Weapon Damage getting fixed?

Any news? Currently, the Bard is the lowest damaging (least useful) DPS role because of its weapon damage. This should be fixed along w/ its OP support abilities which needs to be nerfed.

As a frame of reference, staff weapon damage is 46 while the bow is 41. Does that even make sense?

The thing about its "op support abilities" is it gets left behind and becomes almost useless with just myth/crafted pieces. My group doesn't need Mage's ballad Army's Paeon and Foe's Requiem even in coil including t4 and t5. When you're just starting is another story however it still is not OP in my opinion, but very good. My 2 cents

Caster's have high weapon damage probably coz they don't have auto attacks like melee/archers

We have the lowest static DPS, yes. However, due to literally every single one of our attacks being both ranged and instant cast we also have the ability to hold that DPS consistently and without concern of interrupt, a boon not enjoyed by any other class/job.

Overall I believe it actually balances a bit in our favor, though that's based exclusively on personal observation.

So you want more DPS with less support utility? Have you tried Black Mage? :P

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Originally Posted by Lecreuset

The thing about its "op support abilities" is it gets left behind and becomes almost useless with just myth/crafted pieces. My group doesn't need Mage's ballad Army's Paeon and Foe's Requiem even in coil including t4 and t5. When you're just starting is another story however it still is not OP in my opinion, but very good. My 2 cents

Caster's have high weapon damage probably coz they don't have auto attacks like melee/archers

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Sorry let me clarify. By OP I meant in comparison to the other DPS roles "support" abilities. You're right in that it's really not useful once a group's geared which makes DPS differences a bigger factor. Better to bring along another BLM, DRG or MNK in those cases.

I don't think they are touching bow weapon damage. If they tweak the numbers a little bit higher, archer damage would go up much more.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

We have the lowest static DPS, yes. However, due to literally every single one of our attacks being both ranged and instant cast we also have the ability to hold that DPS consistently and without concern of interrupt, a boon not enjoyed by any other class/job.

Overall I believe it actually balances a bit in our favor, though that's based exclusively on personal observation.

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Yes being able to move and attack at the same time is why its my favorite job. Feels more fluid. But our overall damage (while consistent) is so low we're only competitive in BC T2, Titan HM and AK wall (although the burst damage nerf may change this... 2 bards on AK... will wait and see).

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Originally Posted by caspergrey

So you want more DPS with less support utility? Have you tried Black Mage? :P

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Not my style.

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Originally Posted by Luso

I don't think they are touching bow weapon damage. If they tweak the numbers a little bit higher, archer damage would go up much more.

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In that case, probably fixing our relic's weapon damage would make more sense.

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Originally Posted by newbie

In that case, probably fixing our relic's weapon damage would make more sense.

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I don't see the point behind this. The bard relic is on equal terms with all the other weapons right now. It's still the same problem if they give us 1 more damage on archer weapons, the damage will increase more than 1. Archer weapons are stronger in terms of attacks that land per second.

Constant hits + low numbers does not mean its weaker than a weapon that has high numbers and fewer hits per second.

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Originally Posted by Luso

I don't see the point behind this. The bard relic is on equal terms with all the other weapons right now. It's still the same problem if they give us 1 more damage on archer weapons, the damage will increase more than 1. Archer weapons are stronger in terms of attacks that land per second.

Constant hits + low numbers does not mean its weaker than a weapon that has high numbers and fewer hits per second.

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I see your point. Also found this post. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1439823

Basically, the job itself is its DPS issue.

It's a support class that happens to do respectable enough damage. We could always go back to the FFXI days where you just run around casting songs on people, never unsheathing that Kard. (or Monster Signa I guess)

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Originally Posted by Luso

I don't see the point behind this. The bard relic is on equal terms with all the other weapons right now. It's still the same problem if they give us 1 more damage on archer weapons, the damage will increase more than 1. Archer weapons are stronger in terms of attacks that land per second.

Constant hits + low numbers does not mean its weaker than a weapon that has high numbers and fewer hits per second.

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Have you even looked at the other relic weapons? I'm going to assume not based on how wrong this post is.
MNK Relic has barely lower AA, but much less delay (especially considering GL). Also trumps it by 5 WD, completing negating the AA difference.
DRG relic is faster and stronger, both in AA and WD.
Not even touching WD compared to Casters.

The only time Artemis will ever be stronger than another relic is for the 10 seconds you have Barrage up.

Attacks that are landing. In current level 50 boss fights ask your monks and dragoons how often they must disconnect from their target. Does the monk lose all his ramp up from greased lightning when they do? Does dragon have to restart part of their combo, reapply buff and debuff? What about the casters? Are they safe to cast the spell in that spot?
The way I see it is Archer's low weapon damage correlates with other traits archers passively posses.

When does a bard disconnect from a boss/target? Casting spell/song is one moment, but how often is a bards attack stopped because they have to move out of the way?

I mentioned attacks that are landing not just weapon's speed and damage. Monks have insane dps if they can stay on the boss. This is the way SE set up weapons and the low damage on our weapons doesn't mean we are supposed to be weaker. It might be because we are stronger somewhere other classes are weaker.

Also, I have other relics. I've glanced at them quite a few times. :3

Thing is, EVERY other class relic+1 is 46 physical damage. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Would it not make more sense for the sake of consistency (read: scaling) to bump Bard weapons to the same damage as other classes and then alter potency values downward to compensate?

This could effectively lower our damage at early ilvls where, let's face it Bard damage is a bit too high for being able to ignore movement mechanics and stay at range (which is the entire reason they're going to nerf Bard in 2.1).
Meanwhile, it might actually give us a slight boost at endgame where we begin to seriously lag behind (even before the melee buff and bard nerf coming in 2.1).

Let's ignore most of thread for a moment and take a look at how Artemis Bow to Artemis Bow +1 works. You gain 1 weapon damage for 10 item levels. Ok, seems a little weird. Now with the Allagan Bow i90 going to i95, are they going to bring it up 0.5 WDMG? Or another 1? See the problem here?

So I suggest nerfing Bard DPS more, equivalent to weapon damage increases, and bring weapon damage up to 46. Then every subsequent weapon damage increase is actually significant and logical.

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Originally Posted by Luso

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You mentioned attacks that were landing, but solely elaborating to include attack strength and speed. There weren't any implications about mechanics or up-time.
Regardless, none of that make the Artemis stronger or even equal. If that were the case, Bards wouldn't still get outparsed by melee and casters, regardless of mechanics.
Yes, Bards were very clearly meant to be weaker. If that wasn't already made clear by the incoming nerf (and counter melee buff), then there's nothing else to really say.

In regards to OP, the lowering of bow damage was intentional.

Its not a bug. So its not likely going to be fixed.

I'm not sure what the problem is?

If your problem is "bards don't do enough damage" then that's a separate discussion.

But if your question is "will it be fixed", then no, it won't be fixed, because it isn't an issue.

Will it be changed? Who knows? But most likely 2.1 bards will not be getting any buffs.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

It's a support class that happens to do respectable enough damage. We could always go back to the FFXI days where you just run around casting songs on people, never unsheathing that Kard. (or Monster Signa I guess)

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There's no room for that in a 4/8 man Party. Forcing it like that will need the songs to be really good and that would probably be the real issue because people will want bard even more. Right now you can finish everything without a bard but it's still easier to have one. Some people like a challenge though :)

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Originally Posted by Lecreuset

Right now you can finish everything without a bard but it's still easier to have one. Some people like a challenge though :)

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This is how it is meant to be, you can complete any of the 8 man content with any combination as long as you have the standard 2 tank, 2 healer, 4 dps setup. Of course you can deviate from that to suite your group's makeup, but they always wanted to be able to use any class/job for any content, and not favor job stacking, so right now people prefer paladins, so they are giving warriors more tools, bards and casters are highly sought after for Coil groups, so they are increasing the usefulness of dragoon and monk.This will continue through the life of the game, it happens with all MMO's, new content is released, they try to balance classes with it, then end up tweaking after to try get it right, once they feel they are at a stable point, it's time for new content and the cycle starts again. You can see this in other games, most classes in WoW now are completely different than they were at release, in XI ninja was meant to be a debuff/dps class, but the players saw it and invented the evasion tank, and SE rolled with it, adding a dynamic to the job they didn't even imagine when they designed it.

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Originally Posted by Luso

Attacks that are landing. In current level 50 boss fights ask your monks and dragoons how often they must disconnect from their target. Does the monk lose all his ramp up from greased lightning when they do? Does dragon have to restart part of their combo, reapply buff and debuff? What about the casters? Are they safe to cast the spell in that spot?
The way I see it is Archer's low weapon damage correlates with other traits archers passively posses.

When does a bard disconnect from a boss/target? Casting spell/song is one moment, but how often is a bards attack stopped because they have to move out of the way?

I mentioned attacks that are landing not just weapon's speed and damage. Monks have insane dps if they can stay on the boss. This is the way SE set up weapons and the low damage on our weapons doesn't mean we are supposed to be weaker.

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Careful.... other bards are going to beat you for saying this.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

This is how it is meant to be, you can complete any of the 8 man content with any combination as long as you have the standard 2 tank, 2 healer, 4 dps setup.

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Well, 4 bards doing Ifrit HM will have a very very hard time, probably impossible if they are not decked out with gear where they shouldn't do ifrit anymore anyway.

Otherwise i agree with you, it's sad enough that you all too often end up with 3 bards in an ifrit group if you use duty finder.

On the topic: if bards really already were that bad as many make them out to be, they wouldn't be everywhere you go. There is a reason to that, and it's not because people like their mechanics THAT much.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

Well, 4 bards doing Ifrit HM will have a very very hard time, probably impossible if they are not decked out with gear where they shouldn't do ifrit anymore anyway.

Otherwise i agree with you, it's sad enough that you all too often end up with 3 bards in an ifrit group if you use duty finder.

On the topic: if bards really already were that bad as many make them out to be, they wouldn't be everywhere you go. There is a reason to that, and it's not because people like their mechanics THAT much.

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Very, very hard time is not comparable to impossible.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Very, very hard time is not comparable to impossible.

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well, i don't have a bard, so i can't try it out. Is there a party with 4 bards and with ifrit weapons (or less) and partial darklight equipment who was able to do it? Because that's the gear the fight is balanced to. Honestly i really doubt it, but i'd be interesting to see a video of it.

I think this is an extreme case where it's fine when it doesn't work with any party setup.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

Well, 4 bards doing Ifrit HM will have a very very hard time, probably impossible if they are not decked out with gear where they shouldn't do ifrit anymore anyway.

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Focus fire each nail. Use tank LB if they don't go down. You'll all be hurting, but should survive and can continue the fight just like before.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Focus fire each nail. Use tank LB if they don't go down. You'll all be hurting, but should survive and can continue the fight just like before.

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Nope. (Unless all your bards are overgeared)
iLvL~55 Bards don't put down enough single target to solo a nail in time unless they get a huge string of crits and bloodletter procs (RNG).
Tank limit break PLUS Sacred Soil won't save you from more than 1 nail at iLvL~55 vit values.

It can definitely be done if most are overgeared, but that's irrelevant to a conversation about balance.

Either the DF just needs to stop making all Bard DD groups, or Foe needs to be modified to affect physical damage as well as magic (but still not stack).
Then it would be MUCH easier to tune Bard for Light party play vs Full party play.

Bard support abilities are not op. Songs are only helpful for people who mismanage their resources.

Our silence is usefull only because of a few particular mechanics. We have no stun, low dps, low burst, poor aoe, no limit break. We're getting nerfed anyways because troll Dragoons whined enough to get their way.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

Bard support abilities are not op. Songs are only helpful for people who mismanage their resources.

Our silence is usefull only because of a few particular mechanics. We have no stun, low dps, low burst, poor aoe, no limit break. We're getting nerfed anyways because troll Dragoons whined enough to get their way.

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... and she called dragoons trolls. Wow.

I think monks were complaining about bards more than Dragoons. Dragoons didn't have to worry about a bard replacing them in group thanks to Disembowel. What do Monks have to support other DPS? I got nothin'. Granted, if you come to my server you'll find most of the Dragoon population being terrible and not knowing how to properly use their abilities in a rotation or even avoid the avoidable damage which created the whole alienation of melee dps in the first place.

On topic: Bard weapon damage is fine, I think if our endgame weapons had at least crit hit rate instead of totally worthless skill speed they would be comparable to other classes' weapons. I have no information on what the Extreme primal reward weapon will be like but if it has crit on it you can bet I'll be using that over anything else until they decide to give us a higher tier of weapon.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

well, i don't have a bard, so i can't try it out. Is there a party with 4 bards and with ifrit weapons (or less) and partial darklight equipment who was able to do it? Because that's the gear the fight is balanced to. Honestly i really doubt it, but i'd be interesting to see a video of it.

I think this is an extreme case where it's fine when it doesn't work with any party setup.

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4 BRD may struggle on Ifrit, but not nearly as much as 4 MNK or 4 DRG on Titan.....BRD can spread out and avoid stacked plumes...

Easiest wins I've had in Titan were with 4 BRD or 4 BLM

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

Bard support abilities are not op. Songs are only helpful for people who mismanage their resources.

Our silence is usefull only because of a few particular mechanics. We have no stun, low dps, low burst, poor aoe, no limit break. We're getting nerfed anyways because troll Dragoons whined enough to get their way.

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Have you defeated Titan or better with every job?

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

4 BRD may struggle on Ifrit, but not nearly as much as 4 MNK or 4 DRG on Titan.....BRD can spread out and avoid stacked plumes...

Easiest wins I've had in Titan were with 4 BRD or 4 BLM

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It's not hard with all melee dps. As plumes are predictable, you have them all stand in one spot and then move.

I still believe you only hear complaints about Bards due to their silence being almost mandatory for certain fights. It's a lot easier for a DD to handle silences than your tanks, and there's only one viable option for that.

Of course, I personally think every class should have an interrupt.

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Originally Posted by Celebcarca

4 BRD may struggle on Ifrit, but not nearly as much as 4 MNK or 4 DRG on Titan.....BRD can spread out and avoid stacked plumes...

Easiest wins I've had in Titan were with 4 BRD or 4 BLM

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Wait, what? There should be no problem with 4 MNK or 4 DRG on Titan. One of the smoothest kills I've had 3 MNKS and 1 DRG (and a BRD as well).

There is like no mechanic I can think of that favors range on that. Plumes? It hits everyone and a lot of people stack or form a line for it anyway, so everyone is equally affected. Even if you just wing it, melee should be fine.
You just ran into bad melee. There is no reason range is better.

4 BRD on Ifrit with appropriate gear though. I'm going to call that impossible until I see otherwise. That's not a struggle, that's just a ridiculous demand. Each bard has to kill a nail each in AF1 gear? No LB at all?
How could you even compare that to an all melee titan?

Since this is a BRD thread I may as well ask it. Is 2 determination better than 1 dex? Basically toxotes choker vs DL neck. I don't really need the accuracy from DL neck right now though.

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Originally Posted by Razgard

Since this is a BRD thread I may as well ask it. Is 2 determination better than 1 dex? Basically toxotes choker vs DL neck. I don't really need the accuracy from DL neck right now though.

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No.

A while back I read this article. http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post...ard-patch-2-0/
It equates 6-7 det to 1 dex.

Also, have you considered http://xivdb.com/?item/4381/Imperial-Operative-Choker
It's not that expensive and when melded with +7 Vit is a lot better IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Thing is, EVERY other class relic+1 is 46 damage. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

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Caster +1 relics are actually 69. Not 46. It just reinforces your point I suppose, but you should at least be correct with your broad generalizations.

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Originally Posted by Dyssyd

Caster +1 relics are actually 69. Not 46. It just reinforces your point I suppose, but you should at least be correct with your broad generalizations.

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Caster weapons have a hidden physical damage stat, much like physical weapons have a hidden magic damage stat. Garuda weapon for BLM has the same physical damage as Artemis+1, and their level 34 Toothed Goathorn Staff is a match for the magic damage.

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Originally Posted by Dyssyd

Caster +1 relics are actually 69. Not 46. It just reinforces your point I suppose, but you should at least be correct with your broad generalizations.

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It was just a semantics issue. Fixed it for you. Physical damage.
Mages magic damage on their weapons is obviously higher because they don't auto attack. (they can, but the damage is pitiful)