Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave

[kingfury]

And it does, so what exactly are you complaining about. However, who in their right mind would use a 2k damage WS when they can use a 4k+ damage ws (raging rush)

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Uh... no, no, I'm not complaining about anything in regards to this statement... I'm making a point. Aannnnnddd your question is actually what's being debated currently... it's kind've the issue I'm addressing with a possible more evenly balanced ws's scaling system that allows all damaging ws's to hold high damaging potential. Not make them equal, but give them the potential to cause high damage with the proper Mod stacking and such.

[Kimble]

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Uh... no, no, I'm not complaining about anything in regards to this statement... I'm making a point. Aannnnnddd your question is actually what's being debated currently... it's kind've the issue I'm addressing with a possible more evenly balanced ws's scaling system that allows all damaging ws's to hold high damaging potential. Not make them equal, but give them the potential to cause high damage with the proper Mod stacking and such.

What you want is impossible to do though.

[kingfury]

What you want is impossible to do though.

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/stagger Based on what?? The current game code?

Again I'll say, we're talking about the reprogramming of game code. We're not talking about picking up a mountain with one hand tied behind your back here. What on earth brings some of you to think anything is "impossible" for these game Developers baffles me.

Multiple times, I've seen this very game company say, more inventory space is not feasible, and multiple times the same company has made it possible again and again.

They are the makers of the game code and formulas you all are so in love with and loyal to, and it's completely in their power to alter, change, rearrange, or remove any code they want. Nothing is impossible for them in regards to this game, and unless you're standing over the shoulder of the Dev team's programming members as they struggle to figure out how this concept would be possible, I would advise reserving such a judgment for the Devs themselves. Not saying you HAVE to, but it would be much wiser. ^^

[Greatguardian]

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/stagger Based on what?? The current game code?

Again I'll say, we're talking about the reprogramming of game code. We're not talking about picking up a mountain with one hand tied behind your back here. What on earth brings some of you to think anything is "impossible" for these game Developers baffles me.

Yes we are.

They are the makers of the game code and formulas you all are so in love with and loyal to, and it's completely in their power to alter, change, rearrange, or remove any code they want. Nothing is impossible, and unless you're standing over the shoulder of the Dev team's programming members as they struggle to figure out how this concept would be possible, I would advise reserving such a judgment for the Devs themselves. Not saying you HAVE to, but it would be much wiser. ^^

Think of the game's coding like a monstrous pyramid. The code has a fundamental base which is built upon to define progressively more functions. "Normal" changes to the game occur in the very peak of this pyramid, using the existing groundwork below it. These tweaks are relatively easy to implement, because they were designed to be adjusted and messed with.

Changes on the scale what you want would occur significantly lower in the pyramid, affecting not only the layer that its on but every single layer above it. That's not to mention the fact that the lower layers are increasingly large and difficult to adjust/predict/manage. One wrong step and you can make Auto-Attacking cause popstars to fly out your character's fists or, significantly more likely, simply cause the entire game to cease functioning.

You have to remember that FFXI is not "In Development". They do not have the resources that were devoted to it when the massive pyramid foundation for the game was being created, and even then said pyramid took years of work to create. Programmers are not magic just because they potentially have access to the game's source code. In fact, it's not even outside the realm of possibility to say that the current Devs may lack full access to the underlying code as well. It is far more likely that they are simply working with the game's Toolkit, which was designed to utilize the game's underlying code and only make adjustments at the peak level.

Toolkits let you plug in stats. They don't let you change what those stats mean.

[Mirage]

But kingfury, just to clarify what it is you want. Do you want all damage-only WSes to have practically identical damage output at any given level? If so, what would be the point in that? Just being able to see different WS animations?

If you don't want them to have identical damage output, people won't use any WS but the strongest of the ones at their disposal, even if this is just a difference of 10% damage. If I can get 4000 damage with Iron Tempest (lol), 4500 damage with Sturmwind, 5000 damage with Keen Edge (rofl), and 5500 damage with Raging Rush, how exactly does this make anything different? Everyone with half a brain cell will still use Raging Rush, no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others. This is exactly like the current situation.

It is in the nature of games like these that new skills obsolete old skills. New spells obsolete old spells. New gear obsoletes old gear. Why should weaponskills be any different? I'm not seeing any black mages complaining that their Thunder II is severely outdamaged by Burst II. In fact, there is a ton of skills that warriors get that is actually never obsoleted. Berserk is one, warcry is another, and let's not forget about provoke! Now that's an ability with a lot of mileage. We have many things that aren't obsoleted, why does every skill we get have to be relevant all the way to the top?

Furthermore, these WSes are still useful in level capped events, such as BCNM fights and level synced parties. So it's not like they never see any use anymore.

[Zyeriis]

But kingfury, just to clarify what it is you want. Do you want all damage-only WSes to have practically identical damage output at any given level? If so, what would be the point in that? Just being able to see different WS animations?

If you don't want them to have identical damage output, people won't use any WS but the strongest of the ones at their disposal, even if this is just a difference of 10% damage. If I can get 4000 damage with Iron Tempest (lol), 4500 damage with Sturmwind, 5000 damage with Keen Edge (rofl), and 5500 damage with Raging Rush, how exactly does this make anything different? Everyone with half a brain cell will still use Raging Rush, no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others. This is exactly like the current situation.

It is in the nature of games like these that new skills obsolete old skills. New spells obsolete old spells. New gear obsoletes old gear. Why should weaponskills be any different? I'm not seeing any black mages complaining that their Thunder II is severely outdamaged by Burst II. In fact, there is a ton of skills that warriors get that is actually never obsoleted. Berserk is one, warcry is another, and let's not forget about provoke! Now that's an ability with a lot of mileage. We have many things that aren't obsoleted, why does every skill we get have to be relevant all the way to the top?

Furthermore, these WSes are still useful in level capped events, such as BCNM fights and level synced parties. So it's not like they never see any use anymore.

Eh, going to have to disagree with almost all of that. I like how you avoided comparing thunder ii to thunder iv and used burst ii instead. That's all that need be said there, other than that's is a horribad example (as spells are divided into tiers and weaponskills are not, same for job abililities).

Backtrack to "no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others". You're right but the people with more brain cells than that will realize the benefit of an enfeeble over a measly 500 dmg (when you're doing 5k+ dmg). Take Great katana weaponskills for example: Is Tachi: Yukikaze useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes blind and can be used in skillchaining. Is Tachi: Kasha useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes paralyze and be used in skillchaining. Only an idiot would use nothing but the most damaging ws just because it does 500 more damage over situationally using a slightly weaker weaponskill that can enfeeble the enemy. These weaponskills still maintain value even faced with relic and emp weaponskills because they do a decent (though not as great) amount of damage and enfeeble the enemy (which, in the end, is more detrimental to the enemy).

I'm not saying I agree with king that everything needs to be scaled up but, your post is so wrong it hurts.

[Greatguardian]

That's just a matter of quantifying the benefit you get from the enfeeble. If you don't add more damage by enfeebling the mob than you would by using a stronger weaponskill, it's still useless.

Same reason it's generally a total waste for Dancers to use their Steps and for Drks and Plds to cast Enlight/Endark mid-fight.

[kingfury]

Think of the game's coding like a monstrous pyramid. The code has a fundamental base which is built upon to define progressively more functions. "Normal" changes to the game occur in the very peak of this pyramid, using the existing groundwork below it. These tweaks are relatively easy to implement, because they were designed to be adjusted and messed with.
Changes on the scale what you want would occur significantly lower in the pyramid, affecting not only the layer that its on but every single layer above it. That's not to mention the fact that the lower layers are increasingly large and difficult to adjust/predict/manage. One wrong step and you can make Auto-Attacking cause popstars to fly out your character's fists or, significantly more likely, simply cause the entire game to cease functioning.

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First off, thanks for the great description and example here.
Second, I assume you do realize that nothing you've pointed out or describe here actually denies the point I made above about anything being "impossible to change" in this game. Difficult maybe, but not impossible. At best, you've offered some very interesting assumptions about what could be plaguing the current Dev Team in regards to heavy changes to the game as a whole, but nothing that would prove true the "impossible to change anything" logic. That being said, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND what you've described here in terms of how the game code could be formatted and the challenges that come with major changes at this point in the game. I truly do understand it, but lets take a look back down memory lane right fast.

Would you agree that the Experience Point system is among one of those fundamental foundation levels you speak of in your pyramid example? It certainly is a tree of code that has it's roots and connections into just about every aspect of FFXI from day one to now. Now, I'm using this particular topic as an example because of the amount of connections it has throughout the game, similar to the concept of altering the systems that govern the power of our ws's as we rise in level. It would be no small feat to tweak such a system, and I understand that.

I've lost track of how many times the EXP system has been adjusted, but I want to say at least 3 times including the most recent adjustment packaged with the May update. The most notable change to this system came a few years ago, when SE used a virtual knife to carve a smoother EXP curve overall. Forever changing the system into something that was far more balanced in comparison to what veteran players had to deal with. Thus changing one of the most defining aspects of the entire game. They've again revisited this system to further tweak it in a continuing effort to balance it for all who play:

"Experience point penalties when KO’d will be eased for characters level 75 and below.
At levels 1–30, the penalty will be removed entirely. At levels 31–75, the amount of XP lost will be lowered as indicated in the chart below."(copied from the May version update page.)

Now unless you don't agree that the EXP system is a heavy one, I hope this example shows the Devs willingness to allocate the appropriate resources to adjust ANY system small or large that is hurting gameplay.

You have to remember that FFXI is not "In Development". They do not have the resources that were devoted to it when the massive pyramid foundation for the game was being created, and even then said pyramid took years of work to create.--Toolkits let you plug in stats. They don't let you change what those stats mean.

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Well... I can't say that I understand this sentiment you've expressed here. We have 9 more levels to achieve and in case you missed it, (copied from The The FINAL FANTASY XI roadmap for the twelve-month period commencing April 2011):

-"The level cap will be raised to 95 and accompanied by a broad range of changes; new content and job abilities will be added, and existing ones adjusted. This penultimate stage in the level cap increase will usher in large-scale changes while preserving balance in anticipation of the impending final rise to level 99."

Unless you don't believe them, or have a different definition of what "Large-scale changes" mean, I'm not sure I follow you're point that they are not in development. All in all, my point still stands, that unless we hear SE say something like, "Due to the decreasing resources for FFXI Online, we will no longer be performing Large scale adjustments to this game. Only Small scale adjustments will commence from this point on. Thank you for playing.", I'm going to reserve such assumptions about their resources.

Thanks for the feedback /

[kingfury]

It sounds as if you've come in to the conversation a bit late Mirage, and that's understandable based on the fact that this is a 200+ post thread at this point. ^^ These points have been discussed earlier in this thread, so I'll do the leg work to go back and post links to the appropriate ones for ya.

But kingfury, just to clarify what it is you want. Do you want all damage-only WSes to have practically identical damage output at any given level? If so, what would be the point in that? Just being able to see different WS animations? If you don't want them to have identical damage output, people won't use any WS but the strongest of the ones at their disposal, even if this is just a difference of 10% damage. If I can get 4000 damage with Iron Tempest (lol), 4500 damage with Sturmwind, 5000 damage with Keen Edge (rofl), and 5500 damage with Raging Rush, how exactly does this make anything different? Everyone with half a brain cell will still use Raging Rush, no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others. This is exactly like the current situation.

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This is something I just addressed a few post ago. I'm actually asking the Devs the same question. To clarify my opinion on the topic of scaleable ws effectiveness along with our rising levels, since we do have a list of multiple damaging ws's at our disposal, yes, I believe these ws's should all hold the potential to do have variable high damage numbers. No ws should ever be so exact as to say you'll always hit 5k damage in my opinion, but different ws conditions that determine the ws's effectiveness should continue to play a role in differentiating damaging ws's from one another. "Chance of Critical hit" for example is a random modifier that will occasionally yield spike damage compared to a damaging ws that doesn't have such a modifier.

I say keep such things, just allow those none critical ws's to be boosted in a way that makes them a fair contender amongst our damaging ws choices. If all my damaging ws's could do powerful damage based on correctly Modifying them at my lvl 90, then yes, I personally would alternate between them during play just for the freedom of choice to do so. Though, I agree that each damaging ws should have something that makes it unique from one another either from aftermath effects or the possible enfeebles they impose on a target.

Posted by Kingfury:"The whole argument of "Why even use it when you could just spam Ukko's" is one that I really can't defend in terms of how the game is currently. It truly would make more sense if we just had one main ws listed for "damaging ws's" in our list as we acquired the newest one in the line as we increased our combat skills vs having a list full of weaker ws's not worthy of touching. My point and question to the Devs is if we do have the choice to pick from a number of ws's to cause damage with, shouldn't each of them hold the same "potential" to cause high amounts of damage? The similar question for Break ws's; why would we use these enfeebling ws over our most powerful damaging ws's if their return does not outweigh the alternative."

It is in the nature of games like these that new skills obsolete old skills. New spells obsolete old spells. New gear obsoletes old gear. Why should weaponskills be any different? I'm not seeing any black mages complaining that their Thunder II is severely outdamaged by Burst II. In fact, there is a ton of skills that warriors get that is actually never obsoleted. Berserk is one, warcry is another, and let's not forget about provoke! Now that's an ability with a lot of mileage. We have many things that aren't obsoleted, why does every skill we get have to be relevant all the way to the top?

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This was back on page 12. It explains my stance on why I believe WS's should be just as scaleable as JA's:

Posted by Kingfury: "But look back to the "ever growing and evolving Player". Job abilities, Spells, and weapon skills really shouldn't fit in the same category as the above mentioned items in my opinion. I believe they should be just as scaleable and ever-growing as we are because they are tied to our growth as players. Players don't receive new weapons/gear once they've leveled up or acquired enough skill using a weapon, but they do receive new weapon skills and job abilities. It's not that they can't be made to be scaleable. With the similar logic of what was put into the Trial of the Magians system, technically speaking the Devs could /toss out things like spell tiers all together and have stuff like "STONE(+1-6)", and "CURE(+1-6)" in an effort to make such things scaleable as we increase in level and grow more powerful. The "Merit Point System" was in essence a very simplified Trial of the Magian system for JA's if you think about it. You had to go out and do stuff (gain exp) to then return to the system and "turn in" your required currency (merit points) to improve your JA's. So if you see it as it would be seen via the Trial of the Magians system, it would look like "Berserk+2" and "Double Attack+5" and so on. One of the biggest problems with the Merit Point system in fact was that we didn't get to pick from a list of all our abilities when deciding which JA we wanted to enhance. The same goes for the TotM weapons. The Devs decided for us.

Take Berserk for instance. It's a level 15 JA that still has use at level 90. That's scaleability right there lol, and it's as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Weaponskills should be just as scaleable right? Not to say that one ws is "more useful" than the other, cause that would warrant change to the game if things are non useful, but rather have "different uses" during battle.-- (link to the entire post)

Furthermore, these WSes are still useful in level capped events, such as BCNM fights and level synced parties. So it's not like they never see any use anymore.

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They could still be useful after such an adjustment, but just have a more balanced system behind them. Still able to skillchain and so forth, yet the damage would be more scaled to level.

[Mirage]

Eh, going to have to disagree with almost all of that. I like how you avoided comparing thunder ii to thunder iv and used burst ii instead. That's all that need be said there, other than that's is a horribad example (as spells are divided into tiers and weaponskills are not, same for job abililities).

Backtrack to "no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others". You're right but the people with more brain cells than that will realize the benefit of an enfeeble over a measly 500 dmg (when you're doing 5k+ dmg). Take Great katana weaponskills for example: Is Tachi: Yukikaze useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes blind and can be used in skillchaining. Is Tachi: Kasha useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes paralyze and be used in skillchaining. Only an idiot would use nothing but the most damaging ws just because it does 500 more damage over situationally using a slightly weaker weaponskill that can enfeeble the enemy. These weaponskills still maintain value even faced with relic and emp weaponskills because they do a decent (though not as great) amount of damage and enfeeble the enemy (which, in the end, is more detrimental to the enemy).

I'm not saying I agree with king that everything needs to be scaled up but, your post is so wrong it hurts.

My examples specifically dealt with WSes that were for damage only. I didn't bring WSes with status effects into the mix exactly because those are situational.

So regarding my actual point, would you use Keen Edge if Raging Rush consistently dealt more damage?

Should Keen Edge and Raging Rush on average deal exactly the same damage? Cause if not, one is going to be inarguably better than the other, and that WS is the one people will choose when wanting to deal the most damage possible.