The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[Carth]

I've been accused of speaking for everyone when I post some topics, but that's only coming from those who get offended at other peoples opinions.

As a person who was playing since 2004 (on and off admittedly with 2-3 month long breaks), and as a person who can sympathize with your complaints (but not entirely), I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that. For the most part, Abyssea did bring in returning players. While their views on Abyssea's activities are mixed (most disagreed about the viability of leech parties), they do enjoy the casual outlook of the game. I also enjoy this myself. Players are much friendlier than they were pre-Abyssea.

I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

EDIT:

Actually this threads intention was not to imply that FFXI is dying or is dead. Rather it's to discuss the decline in quality gameplay, playerbase and last-ability.

Those things in turn, would/could cause a game to be dying or dead.

Very well. But before I answer this I'd like to see your reply to my question in this post, if you don't mind.

[Akujima]

I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that.

You caught me while still overlooking my post, and I realized this fact and edited that part out.

I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".

Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

[Anewie]

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

[Karbuncle]

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

Agreed, if FFXIV is anything like FFXI, We'll go to FFXIV it in 7 Years when its actually playable riding the tide of Q_Q tears from those who think its ruined because its too casual, even though in reality its more fun, accessible and enjoyable than before, its just people have been playing it for 7 years and it no longer excites them like it used to, so they try to find things to scapegoat their blame on.

See you guys on FFXIV in 7 years ;O

[Anewie]

Agreed, if FFXIV is anything like FFXI, We'll go to FFXIV it in 7 Years when its actually playable riding the tide of Q_Q tears from those who think its ruined because its too casual, even though in reality its more fun, accessible and enjoyable than before, its just people have been playing it for 7 years and it no longer excites them like it used to, so they try to find things to scapegoat their blame on.

See you guys on FFXIV in 7 years ;O

Those are your opinions. It only highlights my point you're not really any better than an elitist jerk who goes around taunting and making fun of people, because they can do things and enjoy doing things and having things, others don't.

I'm from asura as well. I could say you're totally bsing saying their are shouts for shinryus and ranis w.o brews consistantly, when that's not true at all. I could say you were just a whiney noob who didn't enjoy old ffxi because your main job was drg and you couldn't be bothered to do anything outside duo/trio. I could say you were so terrible, no einherjar ls would accept you and because you had to be told every 5 minutes to pass cells, no salvage ls would keep you either.

I just checked your ffxiah profile.. and I could say alot but its to be expected.

I'm sorry to say :O! Not everyone is like you. Snarkyness aside, I've never seen a non brew shinryu in the hours i've been on. The game was always accessable for me. You're not me though, and I understand your interests aren't the same as mine.

I do have one question though, what exactly about FFXI was so inaccessable to you? We already talked about kings, which were obselete since odin. I'm really curious what so hard about this game for you? I can understand trash drop rates or long spawns. None of that is "hard" or "stressful" to me though ; ;

Again, everyone is different and plays differently. Those things didn't stress me out. I'm sorry if they did you. Just a video game though^^. Why would you continue playing a game that was stressful or too hard for you?o.O

You made a comment before about how progressively more angry my posts seem. Allow me to comment on yours and how progressively snarky you're trying to be. You seem content with starting an argument with me. Unless you have something new to add, my opinions not changing and neither is yours. If I wanna post in a thread here on the forums, thats my business. You seem to care though!

No idea why !

[Akujima]

I'm from Asura as well.

I'm Shinjima on Asura. But I came over from Pandemonium during the first merge.

Lol... I've never cared one bit about any hockey team, sports team or even the country I live in, rofl... But when Pandemonium got taken away, I was furious -_-...

[Karbuncle]

Derp

Sorry this is like 4 pages late, I went to bed. On the topic of quitting if the game became to stressful? Yeah, I would. a Game is not worth uneccessary stress all the time. if its something small like "I didn't get drop" its not a big deal. I don't think i can find a lot of things that would honestly stress me so much to quite though...

But i've never blamed nor condemned you for quitting, in fact I've mentioned its likely the best choice you could have made. I agree with your decision.

Also! You really need to laugh more! I thought it was pretty funny. Though, actually resorting to trying to dig up dirt on my FFXIAH profile to add to our little conversation, That hurt bad, Luckilyi had Migawari up. something we didn't have back at 75 ^_~

1) if its about my BLU Gear. I'm working on +1/+2 gear for it. Which is better than i can say for most players. I used it for Targeting the Captain and i rarely play the job, But I'm still bothering to try and gear it, and at least i have all my spells :|

2) If its about my Comment. Thats an Inside joke with my friends, but I'm sure you took it differently, or thought i was being serious, right? Yah, You did. Don't lie to me. I can tell!

3) If you want to judge me based on a my current gear shown, thats your prerogative. Also I haven't updated those gear-sets in months (especially PLD and RDM), Judge me on my THF, WAR, and MNK, the 3 jobs that I've actually succeeded in getting gear for so far. Seal drop rates suck, but theyre easy to farm, So i'm working on it !

4) Gear is not everything, While some may lead you to believe differently, I know my jobs, I know how to play them, and i know what I'm doing, Which is more than i can say for half the game. If you think something "...and i could say a lot but i wont" based on a AH page, you yourself are far more "Bad" elitist than i ever am. You mention irony, I think its ironic that you say the things you say, then turn around and try to find as much dirt on me as possible. Here i thought we were enjoying a pleasant conversation?

I certainly didn't try to dig up dirt on you or stalk your FFXIAH page for information to sling in an online internet 'conversation'. shame on you good madam.


See now, You could have said something like "LOL, Yah, and we'll be surrounded by the idiots who can't tell its a dying game and blindly accept their casual fantasy XIV" and i would have chuckled. Cause all this time I could have sworn you told me this isn't stressing you, and that we weren't "Arguing". I thought you'd handle a joke better, even if it was slighlty aimed in your direction.

Secondly, Yes, I've been playing since NA Release, I've enjoyed this game for years, I have a life, a GF, My own apartment, and a job too, So you can't pull a RL Card next response ! I started when i was about 15-ish, I'm now 22, Full time job, and i love what the game is now.

Thirdly, I don't mind if everyone is not like me, Its never been about that, I'm not sure where this even came into play...

Fourthly, on Rani/Shinryu, I didn't say constantly, i said "Occasionally". I see shouts for 6-man Shinryu's often. Also, I said nothing about un-brewed Rani's. Read back to that post and you can see clearly i only mention Shinryu in context with "no brews". Am i assuming? Yah, Probably, When i see "Shinryu Do you need it? WHM, Can i have it? 5/6" I assume they're trying to kill it without a brew, or why would you bring 6 people? I admit i assume its for non-brew. I could be wrong, but it would be an honest mistake.

I'm just not accustomed to people bringing 6 others to an easily brewable fight without the intentions of doing it un-brewed. Cause it feels like thats a lot of unnecessary jobs/lot competition.

Also, You need to learn the difference between Snarky and anger. I quite enjoy a debate, or conversation, sometimes my sarcastic side shows yes i know, i slip up. I try not to be a sarcastic freak online. But I figured since you, yourself told me you don't get "upset" or "stressed" about these things, You might laugh it off. Clearly, one of us is wrong. Either I misjudged your character, Or you're lying to me when you say you don't get stressed over forums. When I talk to someone who assures me they aren't angry over it, i assume then they can take jokes.

Also i only care about you posting on this forums because I'm worried about your well being clearly, You can be so hurtful sometimes.

As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

But if a game decides it wants content to be user-friendly and accessible to anyway, i respect those types of decisions, because its a hard one to make. You upset Hardcores but you make Casuals happy.

Theres a lot more to be said, But in the interest of not making too big of a giant post i'll stop here.

OH! BTW if you quote me, Edit my post down to 1 word. I'd like to see what word you chose. (Also i have a strange feeling even though this thread has turned into back-and-forht's, We should end this soon!)

[Anewie]

Sorry this is like 4 pages late, I went to bed. On the topic of quitting if the game became to stressful? Yeah, I would. a Game is not worth uneccessary stress all the time. if its something small like "I didn't get drop" its not a big deal. I don't think i can find a lot of things that would honestly stress me so much to quite though...But i've never blamed nor condemned you for quitting, in fact I've mentioned its likely the best choice you could have made. I agree with your decision.

Also! You really need to laugh more! I thought it was pretty funny. Though, actually resorting to trying to dig up dirt on my FFXIAH profile to add to our little conversation, That hurt bad, Luckilyi had Migawari up. something we didn't have back at 75 ^_~

1) if its about my BLU Gear. I'm working on +1/+2 gear for it. Which is better than i can say for most players. I used it for Targeting the Captain and i rarely play the job, But I'm still bothering to try and gear it, and at least i have all my spells :|

2) If its about my Comment. Thats an Inside joke with my friends, but I'm sure you took it differently, or thought i was being serious, right? Yah, You did. Don't lie to me. I can tell!

3) If you want to judge me based on a my current gear shown, thats your prerogative. Also I haven't updated those gear-sets in months (especially PLD and RDM), Judge me on my THF, WAR, and MNK, the 3 jobs that I've actually succeeded in getting gear for so far. Seal drop rates suck, but theyre easy to farm, So i'm working on it !

4) Gear is not everything, While some may lead you to believe differently, I know my jobs, I know how to play them, and i know what I'm doing, Which is more than i can say for half the game. If you think something "...and i could say a lot but i wont" based on a AH page, you yourself are far more "Bad" elitist than i ever am. You mention irony, I think its ironic that you say the things you say, then turn around and try to find as much dirt on me as possible. Here i thought we were enjoying a pleasant conversation?

I certainly didn't try to dig up dirt on you or stalk your FFXIAH page for information to sling in an online internet 'conversation'. shame on you good madam.


See now, You could have said something like "LOL, Yah, and we'll be surrounded by the idiots who can't tell its a dying game and blindly accept their casual fantasy XIV" and i would have chuckled. Cause all this time I could have sworn you told me this isn't stressing you, and that we weren't "Arguing". I thought you'd handle a joke better, even if it was slighlty aimed in your direction.

Secondly, Yes, I've been playing since NA Release, I've enjoyed this game for years, I have a life, a GF, My own apartment, and a job too, So you can't pull a RL Card next response ! I started when i was about 15-ish, I'm now 22, Full time job, and i love what the game is now.

Thirdly, I don't mind if everyone is not like me, Its never been about that, I'm not sure where this even came into play...

Fourthly, on Rani/Shinryu, I didn't say constantly, i said "Occasionally". I see shouts for 6-man Shinryu's often. Also, I said nothing about un-brewed Rani's. Read back to that post and you can see clearly i only mention Shinryu in context with "no brews". Am i assuming? Yah, Probably, When i see "Shinryu Do you need it? WHM, Can i have it? 5/6" I assume they're trying to kill it without a brew, or why would you bring 6 people? I admit i assume its for non-brew. I could be wrong, but it would be an honest mistake.

I'm just not accustomed to people bringing 6 others to an easily brewable fight without the intentions of doing it un-brewed. Cause it feels like thats a lot of unnecessary jobs/lot competition.

Also, You need to learn the difference between Snarky and anger. I quite enjoy a debate, or conversation, sometimes my sarcastic side shows yes i know, i slip up. I try not to be a sarcastic freak online. But I figured since you, yourself told me you don't get "upset" or "stressed" about these things, You might laugh it off. Clearly, one of us is wrong. Either I misjudged your character, Or you're lying to me when you say you don't get stressed over forums. When I talk to someone who assures me they aren't angry over it, i assume then they can take jokes.

Also i only care about you posting on this forums because I'm worried about your well being clearly, You can be so hurtful sometimes.
As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

But if a game decides it wants content to be user-friendly and accessible to anyway, i respect those types of decisions, because its a hard one to make. You upset Hardcores but you make Casuals happy.

Theres a lot more to be said, But in the interest of not making too big of a giant post i'll stop here.

OH! BTW if you quote me, Edit my post down to 1 word. I'd like to see what word you chose. (Also i have a strange feeling even though this thread has turned into back-and-forht's, We should end this soon!)

Thank you so much for the elaborate post Karby! Debate? I'd ask you what exactly we're debating about but you'll probably ramble on about random stuff agaiin and throw in some sarcastic remarks instead. I know I asked you before what was so inaccessable for you back at 75 besides "lolHNM" and I didn't get a response, but it's okay! I didn't even bother to read all of your posts about your irl and all that, lol. You're the only one who had the mindset of irl having anything to do with.. final fantasy forum and ffxi. You're the only one mentioning stress and a video game.

If your definition of a debate is instead of answering questions directly and intelligently, and instead making off the wall and sacarstic comments in a thread you have said several times over you don't agree with, okie dokie!

You've mentioned stress and irl a lot lately. Most people don't get stressed out by video games and i'm only assuming you either use the IRL card or have had it used against you, in which case, not all of us are that immature. Also, none of us care about your irl.

You seem to want the last word really badly, though! You seem to have a really hard time letting things go! Let me help you out with that.

[Akujima]

As a Side note, I Don't "attack" The hardcore. If you check out the "Will there be any new HNMs?" thread, I actually quite understand the ENTIRE mindset of a hardcore. Their Achievements mean nothing because everyone else can achieve it. I understand the game has lost its meaning to those types of people. However, They're no saints either. They condemn and blame casuals for every single problem in the game, and don't tend to realize that Purely "Hardcore" games suck almost as bad as "Purely casual" Games. I've always believed there needs to be a balance of Hardcore and Casual goals.

Actually, what I got from this is that you think each and every single hardcore player was a jerk, which is completely untrue. Just because someone enjoys the rarity of certain things, which would make them feel like they accomplished a daunting task, does not in anyway, mean they are a nasty person who looks down upon others. I've met many "decked out" (so to speak), players who were friendly and nice, but also had really rare equipment back in the day.

Saying that completely hardcore games suck just as much as complete casual games is another subjective term. But what I think people are confused about, is why the game suddenly took a 180 in the other direction. It feels nothing like it used to, and for some people feelings matter, even if it does involve feelings towards a game.

But I'll reiterate myself again, in that what they should have done, was keep the same style of play and added an Abyssea~like scenario for the casual gamers. A scenario that offered equal yet different rewards WITHOUT completely wiping out the previous style of play. But now the balance is tipped in favor of "the casuals", and "the hardcore" are being mostly, if not entirely left out.

There is a point to this thread, and that is to hear both sides of the story. It IS possible to make a game that caters to both the "hardcore" and "casual". In my opinion, the past days of FFXI had everything a great MMO should have, but it was just missing one piece of the puzzle. What was shocking to see, is that SE decided to do a complete overhaul and cater to the casuals, forgetting about the rest of us who already enjoyed the game the way it was.

All in all, that move from them wasn't necessary, and that's the reason I made this thread, so people can discuss their personal views about where the game is going. If that's not important, then I don't know what is.

[Carth]

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".

Personally I've never played WoW long enough to compare this but I do see the major difference just from ToTMs and I do agree that the repetitive grind is mind-numbingly boring, though both methods have their perks.

ToTMs is really really slow, but it's constant progression. If you needed to kill 300 mobs, you can kill 30 and call it a day knowing you got something done.
The Pop system is pretty much instant with a strict time window (unless it's a lottery pop then it starts getting lopsided). This time window allows the player to do what they wish for any time outside that window.

While the Pop system had really bad issues with competition, low drop rates, and time issues, (I don't really consider getting up at 3 AM to camp a mob as 'losing sleep', but it is a major problem when the help needed is not online or too tired to help), the Magian trials has really bad issues with lack of moderation and just having really dumb conditions (Weather/Day trials)

I honestly prefer neither of these methods. I'm more of the type who liked to get pop items to pop a NM, or going through a long series of quests to get the ultimate weapon, or going through a large gauntlet of battles to get weapons/equipment, which is why I'm a big fan of Nyzul Isle and the VNM system. Popping NMs have been around since Sky.

However if I had to choose one it'd be the Pop system, if only because I'm a pretty busy guy outside of the game, and I am able to occupy my time with other things. Killing mobs constantly or having to kill the same lottery pop NM over and over again has caused me to more irritation than the former method.

Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).

It seems you and I have the same concept of difficulty, so that's good. Personally I duo with a friend and fight mission bosses without any help, because it's easy to kill a boss with a party and/or alliance, but it's really a challenge when you do things your way. We've been doing this since 75 was the level cap and is actually the main reason why we play this game. Very recently (and I know people will get pissed at this) we duo'd Bahamut and won after four tries. I do however, have to touch upon CoP.

The reason why CoP's restrictions were lifted was because no one did them. Storyline and Battle-wise, I personally commend it as the best expansion they made and it has yet to be topped. However between these storylines and battles you were constantly running around the world farming/buying items that can be summarized as "easy buttons". This stops around Chapter 6, but that's a pretty long time. The worst part of it all though was when you failed the battle and lost your "easy buttons". No one wants to go back to the AH and spend more money, let alone farming them if they weren't in stock. This is how most of my statics fell apart because after one or two losses no one felt like going through the zone playing Metal Gear Solid. This is what I call tedium, and is the reason why I actually like WoTG's storyline because you don't have to farm "easy buttons" and getting to battles were relatively easy.

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

I believe they had it right with Nyzul Isle and VNMs, but I have no qualms with Abyssea either.