The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[Akujima]

How does a job becoming a bandwagon effect how you play the job in any way shape or form?

I was overlooking this thread, and I had to comment on this particular quote. Recently in other threads, I've been discussing balance when it comes to jobs. So in one aspect, this quote makes sense. But in another, this quote is completely biased.

Jobs becoming "bandwagon" doesn't affect that particular job. It affects other jobs.

It brings imbalance to the game. This imbalance causes favoritism amongst the player base, and this favoritism towards jobs, causes them to exclude other people from events/battles/quests, etc, simply because they do not have the "required job".

I know the cliche thing to say is... "Well then go level a useful job". But this not the answer, and this is where FFXI fails, where MMO's like WoW succeed.

At the risk of being flamed for bringing World of Warcraft to the discussion, Blizzard did not consider that people would play more than 1 character/class/job when the game was developed. They created each Class with the understanding that everyone should be included, regardless of whatever race/class/role they play.

FFXI's past and current trends of "bandwagon jobs/subjobs" seek to create so much imbalance, that any further development without the consideration of "all things being equal", will upset a mass majority of the player base that are either new/returning or simply like the job they play because of nostalgia/role-play reasons.

People didn't level the job they like, only to have everyone around them say "Oh... Didn't you know? That job sucks".

[Karbuncle]

I was overlooking this thread, and I had to comment on this particular quote. Recently in other threads, I've been discussing balance when it comes to jobs. So in one aspect, this quote makes sense. But in another, this quote is completely biased.

Jobs becoming "bandwagon" doesn't affect that particular job. It affects other jobs.

It brings imbalance to the game. This imbalance causes favoritism amongst the player base, and this favoritism towards jobs, causes them to exclude other people from events/battles/quests, etc, simply because they do not have the "required job".

I know the cliche thing to say is... "Well then go level a useful job". But this not the answer, and this is where FFXI fails, where MMO's like WoW succeed.

At the risk of being flamed for bringing World of Warcraft to the discussion, Blizzard did not consider that people would play more than 1 character/class/job when the game was developed. They created each Class with the understanding that everyone should be included, regardless of whatever race/class/role they play.

FFXI's past and current trends of "bandwagon jobs/subjobs" seek to create so much imbalance, that any further development without the consideration of "all things being equal", will upset a mass majority of the player base that are either new/returning or simply like the job they play because of nostalgia/role-play reasons.

People didn't level the job they like, only to have everyone around them say "Oh... Didn't you know? That job sucks".

While your point is correct in some ways, Bandwagon jobs will always Exist. it was RNG, then BLM, then SMN, then SAM, then MNK/WAR, etc etc. Very few will change this, unfortunately. "Miracle Cure" arm-chair thoughts rarely get implemented.


However, that's not at all what the guy i quoted was talking about :|. The way i read it (been like a week now though) he was sad his job had become the "next bandwagon". I.E He's sad his job is useful enough people are leveling it. I.E he apparently wants his job nerfed again.

[Kingofgeeks]

there's nothing SE can do about the diminishing numbers of this game... its old, and there's not really much they can do. Hell, with the stupid PS2 limitation thing they can't even add more DAT files. I, personally, think its pathetic that they used Maws to enter abyssea instead of giving us something new to look at.

I think the problem with a lot of things in this forum is that they're expecting too much out of SE. People complained for years about the difficulty of CoP missions, hard to find parties, and the lack of soloability. The game is getting old, and regardless of how poorly its doing, ffxi is competing with ffxiv.

It is my belief that SE lifted the level cap as a final bang on this game. They pulled out all the stops and gave us more to sink our teeth into. The moment FFXIV picks up speed (if it ever does) and becomes more popular, that's when ffxi will start to fade.

I am thankful that they made this game easier for casual players to partake on. Although i hate it, i'm glad they gave us the ability to be a complete n00b at level 90, because in a lot of situations, the game does turn into a game of skill over time put in (i am fully aware of the vastness of scenarios where this statement is not true).

but seriously, you do have a point. Give us a few more DAT files so we can change our Dragon's color, its fun and it doesn't mess up the balance of anything. Do more things like this and it will keep people happy.

[RaenRyong]

But overnight, as soon as the shadow counter was added, NIN went from being a cool IN DEPTH DYNAMIC JOB, to being a cakewalk @$$ wipe job, and stole all the fun out it.

... counting to 4 is hard? SE just rightfully made something that was not challenging but inconvenient far more convenient. Likewise what they did for exp.

[wish12oz]

So......... the OP thinks because SE is adding useful content, like new BCNMs, and a new NM system (voidwalker) instead of stuff like letting you change your wyverns color, and since people can do things in small groups with their friends instead of requiring large stupid LS's that mainly work to acquire gear for the leaders, and because we now have 'official forums', FFXI is in decline and is going to not be fun anymore?

I have to disagree with you, yet again, big surprise. FFXI is getting better. The only thing that could ruin it at this point is if SE started listening to 99% of the dumb ideas proposed on these forums.

[Leonlionheart]

I've said this somewhere before, but...

SE is a corporation, and as such they like to make money. This is pretty similar to, well, the rest of humanity.

There are a handful of players that are classified as "Hardcore," or players that can play for long periods of time most of the week.

How many people used to have top notch gear, Adaberk, Relics, even Byakko's haidate (although one of the most popular pieces of high end gear in the game) were used by less than 50% of the player base, because probably 75% of players were casual. You talk to a lot of people who tried out the game and the reason they didn't like it was because it was too time consuming.

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.

Abyssea, and subsequently all 80+ content as it stands now, actually brought life to a dying game. Before this, content had been completely static. Gear beyond AHables were only SMALL upgrades, or they brought out gear that wasn't better at all (EVOLITH).

Point is, it's more profitable to cater to the casual gamer.

[Olor]

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.

Yeah, I really don't like the attitude that is like "oh well if you don't have the time to play 30+ hours a week you don't deserve to accomplish anything in the game" - or making out like people who have less time are automagically less skilled than other players.

If someone wants to play 30+ hours a week that is fine as long as they don't expect the developers to make the content more tedious and time consuming to keep them busy.

Honestly I'm losing interest in XI right now because at lvl 66 progression is so slow (I haven't really got any way into Abyssea and there are not really any exp parties out there, especially for a BST). I log on and kill a few things, look at the exp bar, say "f*ck it" and log off.

Am I a bad player? No. But I am a busy person, and at any one time I usually have a few leisure activities I would like to pursue. Like it or not, in order for XI to be enjoyable, I need to feel like I can make progress in the time I have. I've been playing Tactics Ogre cause at least I can play a short while and actually feel like I did something.

I was having a great time until about the time I hit 60. Why? Because I could log in at lunch time, play for an hour and maybe finish off a level. Now, I could go home in the evening and spend 4 hours playing and if I was lucky get 1 or 2 lousy levels after all those hours of mind-numbing grinding.

I haven't logged in for more than a couple hours since easter- and then I was working on a new job (BLU). I haven't really played BST for weeks.

It is sort of sad. But really, I just have better things to do than spend all night waiting for a ding.

[Glamdring]

Aku, I do agree with you on most points. However, there is difficult content out there, the problem is getting anyone to join you on it. I expect the new KCNMs might also address some of your concerns in that regard. In addition, while we talk about how easy Abyssea is now, we are forgetting what it was like when we 1st started working on it; XP was always easy there, but getting the gear, drops, Atma, Lunar Abyssites and the like were hard; once you have the upgraded gear and 3 Atma and the abyssites that increase Cruor Buff efficiency the zones do get easy. Personally, while I have 3 Atma I don't have the top ones except Voracious Violet, Merciless Matriarch and all the Caturae and Iron Giant ones, and only 2-3 AF3+1 pieces on bst, brd, thf and dnc so soloing is still a bit of a challenge for me.

They need to increase the attractiveness of non-Abyssea end-game activities, no question. They also need to address many of the other ideas brought up in the forums. They can mostly ignore all the job ability post threads, they all seem to be requests to make whichever job more powerful at the expense of all the others, destroying any semblance of balance. Also, some are simply frivolous, so not really for everyday play; but they could fit within the confines of one of their events (which I personally never participate in). Some, like the wyvern color one you referenced, I could care less about, except that I think it is much more important to address content issues, like jobs being made irrelevant under current content; I would be incensed if someone could make their wyvern red but Cor still couldn't get a party invite as an example.

Players need to really think out and develop their proposals in here. A generic statement like "give X job dual-wield" is not of any help to the player base or the developers. You need to make a case addressing game balance, job mechanics, why we need to deviate from the current build, why getting it from SJ is inadequate, etc. The best example is the Gyms of Vanadiel proposal by Kingfury, as it clearly shows the type of attention to detail that a developer needs to address when thinking about implementation. When there is that kind of detail players can actually address specific concerns instead of only saying yes or no to the whole shooting match.

We also need to have more aggressive moderators to kill the troll posts so that good ideas are not simply overlooked by having to wade through all the trash. Enough about getting rid of the PS2, they obviously have no intention of EVER doing so. Abyssea entry level, one thread would do. Your relic is no longer godly, again, 1 thread could take care of that. How am I going to get my blackbelt now, one place where I can tell you to "work for it just like anything else in life" will do.

Oh, and give the developers a chance people. Making new content or changes to the game is not a simple process, especially the way code interracts in object oriented programing. They could add a tremendous amount of content, if they didn't care that the platforms were crashed 90% of the time. Point is, they do care. In fact, they care more than the players do about keeping the game viable for all players, since if they don't they are looking for work tomorrow. To be sure, many things are poorly addressed, they've known pup AI has been broken for years and still haven't announced any intention of repair, defensive skill-up rates are attrocious, etc. and whatever else your favorite long-term gripe is; it wouldn't kill anyone on the developers side to actually say what steps they are taking to address those concerns, even if the answer is "nothing" that would be an answer. Playerbase, on the other hand, has to realize that a new proposal by us needs time to be developed-and tested; patience is a virtue, unfortunately it appears not to be a virtue of most of the playerbase.

[Olor]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

[Anewie]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

I agree. As I said, I'm not looking down on casuals. Im looking down on the whiners and people who don't try anyway. Complaining about shikigamni weapon? I saw someone else complaining aboiut Charydbis in another thread.. that mob has a 100% drop..They dropped the best gear at a time. They should be rare spawns... They werent botted more than likely, and comparing them to kings is stupid.

Nobody has the right to complain about kings. Nobody. Ridill was useless since gaxe update and a dring did not make or break a pld. Both epeen pieces. Black belt was easily attainable vbia ks99 and most good einherjar shells shelled out odin kills every 2 weeks.