The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[Leonlionheart]

I've said this somewhere before, but...

SE is a corporation, and as such they like to make money. This is pretty similar to, well, the rest of humanity.

There are a handful of players that are classified as "Hardcore," or players that can play for long periods of time most of the week.

How many people used to have top notch gear, Adaberk, Relics, even Byakko's haidate (although one of the most popular pieces of high end gear in the game) were used by less than 50% of the player base, because probably 75% of players were casual. You talk to a lot of people who tried out the game and the reason they didn't like it was because it was too time consuming.

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.

Abyssea, and subsequently all 80+ content as it stands now, actually brought life to a dying game. Before this, content had been completely static. Gear beyond AHables were only SMALL upgrades, or they brought out gear that wasn't better at all (EVOLITH).

Point is, it's more profitable to cater to the casual gamer.

[Glamdring]

Aku, I do agree with you on most points. However, there is difficult content out there, the problem is getting anyone to join you on it. I expect the new KCNMs might also address some of your concerns in that regard. In addition, while we talk about how easy Abyssea is now, we are forgetting what it was like when we 1st started working on it; XP was always easy there, but getting the gear, drops, Atma, Lunar Abyssites and the like were hard; once you have the upgraded gear and 3 Atma and the abyssites that increase Cruor Buff efficiency the zones do get easy. Personally, while I have 3 Atma I don't have the top ones except Voracious Violet, Merciless Matriarch and all the Caturae and Iron Giant ones, and only 2-3 AF3+1 pieces on bst, brd, thf and dnc so soloing is still a bit of a challenge for me.

They need to increase the attractiveness of non-Abyssea end-game activities, no question. They also need to address many of the other ideas brought up in the forums. They can mostly ignore all the job ability post threads, they all seem to be requests to make whichever job more powerful at the expense of all the others, destroying any semblance of balance. Also, some are simply frivolous, so not really for everyday play; but they could fit within the confines of one of their events (which I personally never participate in). Some, like the wyvern color one you referenced, I could care less about, except that I think it is much more important to address content issues, like jobs being made irrelevant under current content; I would be incensed if someone could make their wyvern red but Cor still couldn't get a party invite as an example.

Players need to really think out and develop their proposals in here. A generic statement like "give X job dual-wield" is not of any help to the player base or the developers. You need to make a case addressing game balance, job mechanics, why we need to deviate from the current build, why getting it from SJ is inadequate, etc. The best example is the Gyms of Vanadiel proposal by Kingfury, as it clearly shows the type of attention to detail that a developer needs to address when thinking about implementation. When there is that kind of detail players can actually address specific concerns instead of only saying yes or no to the whole shooting match.

We also need to have more aggressive moderators to kill the troll posts so that good ideas are not simply overlooked by having to wade through all the trash. Enough about getting rid of the PS2, they obviously have no intention of EVER doing so. Abyssea entry level, one thread would do. Your relic is no longer godly, again, 1 thread could take care of that. How am I going to get my blackbelt now, one place where I can tell you to "work for it just like anything else in life" will do.

Oh, and give the developers a chance people. Making new content or changes to the game is not a simple process, especially the way code interracts in object oriented programing. They could add a tremendous amount of content, if they didn't care that the platforms were crashed 90% of the time. Point is, they do care. In fact, they care more than the players do about keeping the game viable for all players, since if they don't they are looking for work tomorrow. To be sure, many things are poorly addressed, they've known pup AI has been broken for years and still haven't announced any intention of repair, defensive skill-up rates are attrocious, etc. and whatever else your favorite long-term gripe is; it wouldn't kill anyone on the developers side to actually say what steps they are taking to address those concerns, even if the answer is "nothing" that would be an answer. Playerbase, on the other hand, has to realize that a new proposal by us needs time to be developed-and tested; patience is a virtue, unfortunately it appears not to be a virtue of most of the playerbase.

[Olor]

How SE, and the rest of the gaming universe, is handling the 'casual gamer' situation is by making games more casual. Believe it or not, they are actually making MORE money because more people can only play for 1~3 hours 2~3 times a week. Casual players in FFXI can now actually accomplish something beyond the rare occurrence of having the patience to get a job to 75 and using AH gear at best.

Yeah, I really don't like the attitude that is like "oh well if you don't have the time to play 30+ hours a week you don't deserve to accomplish anything in the game" - or making out like people who have less time are automagically less skilled than other players.

If someone wants to play 30+ hours a week that is fine as long as they don't expect the developers to make the content more tedious and time consuming to keep them busy.

Honestly I'm losing interest in XI right now because at lvl 66 progression is so slow (I haven't really got any way into Abyssea and there are not really any exp parties out there, especially for a BST). I log on and kill a few things, look at the exp bar, say "f*ck it" and log off.

Am I a bad player? No. But I am a busy person, and at any one time I usually have a few leisure activities I would like to pursue. Like it or not, in order for XI to be enjoyable, I need to feel like I can make progress in the time I have. I've been playing Tactics Ogre cause at least I can play a short while and actually feel like I did something.

I was having a great time until about the time I hit 60. Why? Because I could log in at lunch time, play for an hour and maybe finish off a level. Now, I could go home in the evening and spend 4 hours playing and if I was lucky get 1 or 2 lousy levels after all those hours of mind-numbing grinding.

I haven't logged in for more than a couple hours since easter- and then I was working on a new job (BLU). I haven't really played BST for weeks.

It is sort of sad. But really, I just have better things to do than spend all night waiting for a ding.

[Anewie]

I've been told that a lot, unfortunately.

The first post (which was the only post I was responding to), first talked about Dragoons and different colored wyverns, then about the forums and SE not listening to its players, to Abyssea is easy, to wanting the game to be fun again. I've yet to find "choice and variety" in the first post.



First I would like to point out that you are making a lot of poor assumptions about me. Never once did I expect things to ever be handed to me. Never once did I expect end game at 75 to be completed with a duo.

Because I highly disagreed with End game shells and their rules, and because I found the events rather depressing and boring rather than enjoyable, I did not do the events. I never complained how people who did these events got the items because they put forth the effort, and therefore, they deserved the gear. That's great for them. But such an event was not an event for me. Instead I did other things in the game that I found enjoyable because it's that, a game.

I'm going to break down the previous quote and respond to it.




The reason the game felt like a job was because it required players to log in at odd hours for a desired item because the monster popped at those hours. I remember setting my alarm to wake up at 3 in the morning to help a friend get her YinYang Robe. After that I realized no video game is worth losing sleep over. Unfortunately Shikigami popped every 21 hours and in order to not lose the Time of Death, someone would at least have to go watch for it. Eventually yes, it would come back into North American time, but, when it did, the Time of Death would again be unknown.

The same applied to Land Kings.

So yes, while the game itself did not require anyone to play at odd hours -- because nothing in the game is a necessity -- the monsters did have terrible hours. That was a problem with the game itself, not the players. And while I appreciate the attempt to make the world alive and interlinking the timezones together by making monsters pop throughout the day, I feel it caused more harm than good. From a roleplaying perspective, it was awesome. From a player wanting to complete a character, it was terrible.



I can't name many people who enjoyed having a long respawn notorious monster be outclaimed from under them. Nor do I know of anyone who enjoyed having to kill a monster over a hundred times to see a drop.

And in a way, yes, the company could have stepped up and helped relieve these monsters in some way. I am a big fan of the pop system. But even then, a shorter respawn timer would have sufficed as well. Or a higher drop rate.



Couldn't be any farther from the truth.

What I wanted was an ability to continuously put effort into a goal and eventually reach it. I despise luck and prefer hard work. This is why I am such a fan of Magians. I can log on whenever, work on it some, and then log out when I need to. Every monster I kill for the trial will count towards the trial, guaranteed. Each monster is one step closer to completing and I enjoy slaying monsters for a better weapon. Whether this process takes a day, a week, or a month, I'm satisfied because I know I'm progressing.




You are entitled to your opinion.



I like FFXI because of its world and its storylines. I like FFXI because I can use a controller to play it. I like FFXI because I can communicate with people all over the world and learn new languages.

While I realize it is a MMO and we therefore cannot divorce the multiplayer aspect, I think it's fair to realize that not everyone will have synced time schedules, dedication, or interest.

I know that I personally prefer to solo because I hate asking other people to give up their fun time to help me out. I don't like bothering people. Thankfully Abyssea has been very reward friendly which means I can ask for one item and give the rest to my friends who help me out.

Just because someone wants to solo, or just because someone completes something relatively quick does not mean that person lacks time, focus, or dedication. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a video game. For some of us this means completing things quick. For others, this means spending a copious amount of energy and time. Some people wish to challenge themselves with solo while others wish to not burden their friends. And some people want to do everything in small or large groups. There are players who want access to all content of the game and others who want to prove themselves as more dedicated.

I will end on this note. FFXI use to be like a job because of the hours of the monsters and the duration of the events. Add insult to injury by adding low drop rates to the events which required more repetitions. To add icing on the cake we sprinkle in some competition. Long hours and timed hours were the problem. I think Abyssea has addressed these issues quite nicely.

If getting yinyang robe was hard for you, then yeah... old ffxi wasn't for you. Freakin yy robe was stressful to you? Not only is a 50% drop, but the comp wasn't even that bad. You're right though, it not worth loosing sleep over.

Especially since it barely had a window. Almost always popped on the 21 hour mark or 15minutes later..

And seriously? You bringing kings up? Get out.

Heres a question, if kings were such a problem, why didn't you do einherjar or ks99? That was too hard for you? Wwas going to bed and getting a new tod later on in the week such a difficult thing for shikigami? Or joining an einherjar LS? Or you don't like playing in groups? I'm sorry, idc how many people "like"d your post.

I have never, not in all the time shikigami weapon has been in game, heard someone complain about the window. And stop bandwagoning on kings. Fact check, ok? You didn't have to do kings to get king gear. Einherjar was amazing, offered gear kings didnt and then some. Einherjar just lacked dring/ridill, but it more than made up for it. I'm guessing you probably never done einherjar.

[Olor]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

[Olor]

If getting yinyang robe was hard for you, then yeah... old ffxi wasn't for you.

Yeah, and clearly it wasn't for most people since the population was in freefall before the developers made content that wasn't only accessible and fun for less than 20% of the playerbase.

Whether you like it or not, companies can't get away with charging the majority of players for content only a minority of players can enjoy. That's why Abyssea exists - because the model where 100% of the playerbase paid for content that only 10-20% could use/access/wear/whatever was leading down the road to failure.

[Anewie]

The funny thing is, when I am making progress at a good pace, I am likely to play longer because I feel like I am getting somewhere - but when progress is slow, I play less because it is boring.

I agree. As I said, I'm not looking down on casuals. Im looking down on the whiners and people who don't try anyway. Complaining about shikigamni weapon? I saw someone else complaining aboiut Charydbis in another thread.. that mob has a 100% drop..They dropped the best gear at a time. They should be rare spawns... They werent botted more than likely, and comparing them to kings is stupid.

Nobody has the right to complain about kings. Nobody. Ridill was useless since gaxe update and a dring did not make or break a pld. Both epeen pieces. Black belt was easily attainable vbia ks99 and most good einherjar shells shelled out odin kills every 2 weeks.

[Anewie]

Yeah, and clearly it wasn't for most people since the population was in freefall before the developers made content that wasn't only accessible and fun for less than 20% of the playerbase.
Whether you like it or not, companies can't get away with charging the majority of players for content only a minority of players can enjoy. That's why Abyssea exists - because the model where 100% of the playerbase paid for content that only 10-20% could use/access/wear/whatever was leading down the road to failure.

Are you saying the population in FFXI was in downfall because of long spawn notorious monsters? I have news for you. That ain't the case.

Many people quit once the announcment of FFXIV(which bombed) and lvl 99. After ffxiv was announced, many people both casual and uncasual started quitting because they figured ffxiv would be a complete mimic of XI. That wasn't the case. I agree with you old endgame wasnt as appealing to you and many others, but that's not at all why the player base was declining. They had alternate methods for the casuals like einherjar and ks99, but they shoulda added more I think. Casuals didn't have exclusive events like the uncasual. They just had events added for them that had alternate means of the gear the uncasual could alrdy attain elsewhere.

You are saying the game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals and that's not true. It did appeal to casuals, it just didn't offer nearly as much content. If you hadnt notice, abbyssea has been out 6-8months, and the second server merge within a year is incoming. The base is still declining. Abyssea didn't didnt revive the game, it just reconstructed it. The game is more appealing to people who might want to start over or make a new character. The flaw in that is, the game is 9-10 years old. You have a slew of newers MMOs, with better graphics, more money in the devs team that offeres the same casual content. FFXI can't compete with that, using the same thing as something new and fresh.

Doing a 180 on ffxi to try to draw in new players and appeal to people who are only casual, 10 years into the games life, was an extremeley flawed tactic. It would have been great business in the first 2-5 years but this game is old and soon half the server will be gone. You don't totally alienate your long time player base in an attempt to try and get new players back. I'm not sure, that's what they did, I'm just saying, if thats what you are telling yourself they did, that is not a good thing for the life of ffxi. You make it sound like the player is returning and ffxi is more alive than ever. No, the base is continuing to decline at the same rate it was before. Becuase now a lot of more uncasuals are quitting, and you can bet people are not rushing to play FFXI because it appeals so much to casuals now. Sure, ssome, maybe even a lot of people are joining ffxi now. But nothing SE does besides adding content that is very well balanced for both parties, is going to revive the game.

.

[Karbuncle]

Are you saying the population in FFXI was in downfall because of long spawn notorious monsters? I have news for you. That ain't the case.

Many people quit once the announcment of FFXIV(which bombed) and lvl 99. After ffxiv was announced, many people both casual and uncasual started quitting because they figured ffxiv would be a complete mimic of XI. That wasn't the case. I agree with you old endgame wasnt as appealing to you and many others, but that's not at all why the player base was declining. They had alternate methods for the casuals like einherjar and ks99, but they shoulda added more I think. Casuals didn't have exclusive events like the uncasual. They just had events added for them that had alternate means of the gear the uncasual could alrdy attain elsewhere.

You are saying the game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals and that's not true. It did appeal to casuals, it just didn't offer nearly as much content. If you hadnt notice, abbyssea has been out 6-8months, and the second server merge within a year is incoming. The base base is still declining. Abyssea didn't didnt revive the game, it just reconstructed it.

Except you're just guessing as well, Because you have no facts any more than he has facts other than word of mouth. Before FFXIV was announced, I assure you the game was still losing population.

This game lost a lot of players over time, even back at 75 when Ground Kings were the only way. (Aside from Salvage/etc). There were also the Salvage bans hurting the population tremendously. Even some people not hit by the ban eventually quit due to friends being hit.

I don't think he was saying "The game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals" persay, I think what he's saying is "The game has been dying for a while, not just because of the new era appealing to casuals". I don't really think "Dying" is a good word either, Its on a decline of population (Slowly, its more of a "rollarcoaster"), but the game is in its later years, is what i mean.

Meaning both in the "hard-core" times and even now in the "Casual times", the game loses people because its just getting old, not only because its "appealing more to casuals".

Basically, No matter what you do, a games population will always slowly decline at some point in time, so right now they're trying to salvage who they can and make the game switch from "Hardcore inaccessible content" to "Casual Content that can be enjoyed by all", which is a smart move. Some will quit, but oh well, Some will always quit. At least this way those who remain will actually be able to enjoy the game and access all the content it offers.

[Anewie]

Except you're just guessing as well, Because you have no facts any more than he has facts other than word of mouth. Before FFXIV was announced, I assure you the game was still losing population.

This game lost a lot of players over time, even back at 75 when Ground Kings were the only way. (Aside from Salvage/etc). There were also the Salvage bans hurting the population tremendously. Even some people not hit by the ban eventually quit due to friends being hit.

I don't think he was saying "The game was dying because it didn't appeal to casuals" persay, I think what he's saying is "The game has been dying for a while, not just because of the new era appealing to casuals". I don't really think "Dying" is a good word either, Its on a decline of population (Slowly, its more of a "rollarcoaster"), but the game is in its later years, is what i mean.

Meaning both in the "hard-core" times and even now in the "Casual times", the game loses people because its just getting old, not only because its "appealing more to casuals".

Basically, No matter what you do, a games population will always slowly decline at some point in time, so right now they're trying to salvage who they can and make the game switch from "Hardcore inaccessible content" to "Casual Content that can be enjoyed by all", which is a smart move. Some will quit, but oh well, Some will always quit. At least this way those who remain will actually be able to enjoy the game and access all the content it offers.

"Kings were the only way", Can you explain what they were the only way for? I really don't know what people mean.

When I retired from kings to lead an einherjar LS, I saw more king bodies doing that then camping nidhogg. Kings were/are fun for a time but when you don't have the time anymore, I admit, yes its time to move on. I'm just wondering why you all didn't do einherjar? Really. That statment is not only not true but it sounds rediculous... Kings were not the only way. They hadnt been since 2004.. >.>