The Decline of FFXI: Forums, Gameplay and Nostalgia

[Akujima]

Bottomline is, FFXI is not dead, and there is no need to call out for a revival.

Actually this threads intention was not to imply that FFXI is dying or is dead. Rather it's to discuss the decline in quality gameplay, playerbase and last-ability.

Those things in turn, would/could cause a game to be dying or dead.

[Carth]

I've been accused of speaking for everyone when I post some topics, but that's only coming from those who get offended at other peoples opinions.

As a person who was playing since 2004 (on and off admittedly with 2-3 month long breaks), and as a person who can sympathize with your complaints (but not entirely), I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that. For the most part, Abyssea did bring in returning players. While their views on Abyssea's activities are mixed (most disagreed about the viability of leech parties), they do enjoy the casual outlook of the game. I also enjoy this myself. Players are much friendlier than they were pre-Abyssea.

I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

EDIT:

Actually this threads intention was not to imply that FFXI is dying or is dead. Rather it's to discuss the decline in quality gameplay, playerbase and last-ability.

Those things in turn, would/could cause a game to be dying or dead.

Very well. But before I answer this I'd like to see your reply to my question in this post, if you don't mind.

[Akujima]

I have to say you shouldn't generalize people like that.

You caught me while still overlooking my post, and I realized this fact and edited that part out.

I do however have to ask what you consider when you talk about difficulty, because when it comes to FFXI, difficulty is often mixed up with tedium. For example, Old-School CoP was more tedious than difficult. Camping Charybdis (since this came up) was more tedious than difficult. Killing Absolute Virtue was way more difficult than tedious.

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".

Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

[Anewie]

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

[Carth]

I had replied to Mevi earlier in this thread about something similar.

And that is, it's been replaced with a different "kind" of tedium. Now instead of the tediousness being based on "luck of the draw" (which in my eyes doesn't really consist of being tedious, unless you're dead set on constantly camping that particular NM over and over again.) instead has been replaced with the tediousness of repetitive grind.

Repetitive grind is a major issue nowadays, and that can be discussed forever. Simply put, alot of people are tired of this style of MMO, and FFXI (Pre-Endgame 75) offered a different approach to this. But SE seemed to have jumped on the WoW bandwagon and brought in "the casual grind".

Personally I've never played WoW long enough to compare this but I do see the major difference just from ToTMs and I do agree that the repetitive grind is mind-numbingly boring, though both methods have their perks.

ToTMs is really really slow, but it's constant progression. If you needed to kill 300 mobs, you can kill 30 and call it a day knowing you got something done.
The Pop system is pretty much instant with a strict time window (unless it's a lottery pop then it starts getting lopsided). This time window allows the player to do what they wish for any time outside that window.

While the Pop system had really bad issues with competition, low drop rates, and time issues, (I don't really consider getting up at 3 AM to camp a mob as 'losing sleep', but it is a major problem when the help needed is not online or too tired to help), the Magian trials has really bad issues with lack of moderation and just having really dumb conditions (Weather/Day trials)

I honestly prefer neither of these methods. I'm more of the type who liked to get pop items to pop a NM, or going through a long series of quests to get the ultimate weapon, or going through a large gauntlet of battles to get weapons/equipment, which is why I'm a big fan of Nyzul Isle and the VNM system. Popping NMs have been around since Sky.

However if I had to choose one it'd be the Pop system, if only because I'm a pretty busy guy outside of the game, and I am able to occupy my time with other things. Killing mobs constantly or having to kill the same lottery pop NM over and over again has caused me to more irritation than the former method.

Yes you are right when mentioning battles like AV or other certain NM's. Difficulty is something that requires you to figure out through planning, strategy and teamwork, how to defeat a particular enemy. How well the co-ordination of your PT/Alliance is, how few mistakes you can make in order to defeat that enemy, determines it's difficulty.

CoP was difficult, because it had many of these battles. The level cap on certain fights, required you think EVEN more about how to defeat an enemy without all those super powered abilities at 75. My assumption of how people thought CoP was tedious, is the many cut scenes required to progress (because most of these people just skipped through and didn't watch the storyline anyways).

It seems you and I have the same concept of difficulty, so that's good. Personally I duo with a friend and fight mission bosses without any help, because it's easy to kill a boss with a party and/or alliance, but it's really a challenge when you do things your way. We've been doing this since 75 was the level cap and is actually the main reason why we play this game. Very recently (and I know people will get pissed at this) we duo'd Bahamut and won after four tries. I do however, have to touch upon CoP.

The reason why CoP's restrictions were lifted was because no one did them. Storyline and Battle-wise, I personally commend it as the best expansion they made and it has yet to be topped. However between these storylines and battles you were constantly running around the world farming/buying items that can be summarized as "easy buttons". This stops around Chapter 6, but that's a pretty long time. The worst part of it all though was when you failed the battle and lost your "easy buttons". No one wants to go back to the AH and spend more money, let alone farming them if they weren't in stock. This is how most of my statics fell apart because after one or two losses no one felt like going through the zone playing Metal Gear Solid. This is what I call tedium, and is the reason why I actually like WoTG's storyline because you don't have to farm "easy buttons" and getting to battles were relatively easy.

All that being said. What they should have done (or still have a chance to implement) is to take their own path, and find a balance between the oldschool XI AND the casual players demands, instead of wiping out one style of play in favor of the other.

I believe they had it right with Nyzul Isle and VNMs, but I have no qualms with Abyssea either.

[Karbuncle]

I agree and it's funny because the only reason the player base saw a sudden increase was bcause of FFXIV bombing so epically. The increase isn't even enough to warrant them keeping some servers around, so it's nothing significant, because so many are still quitting.

Once FFXIV is "fixed", the same people who came back because of it, are gonna peace out. At least the majority of the uncasual who enjoyed the grind of the 75 endgame, would stay in FFXI. Mostly because they didn't want to start all over in a new MMO. That was my reason.

It makes sense too. FFXIV is a beautiful game. It wont have the same limitations as XI with the ps2 era. It can go much farther than XI could. It has potential to become FFXI +10. Since my playtime had become gimped down due to irl, I can look at it from a casual point of view. I personally would not care for FFXI if FFXIV was actually playable. Its really awesome looking and there is so much mystery in it. The problem is, the actual playability is too funky.

FFXIV has a new world, new mobs, new everything. It just failed machanics atm. They will fix that in time. FFXI was funky at first too. It wasn't nearly that bad, but it had issues. Why would anyone stay and do the casual grind of XI, which is very limited. Basically abyssea only, when they can do it XIV, and be offered so much new content?

Assuming they "fix" it. It could never get fixed. My guess is though, they will fix it, even if comes down too changing everything about it to mimic FFXI system. SE isn't gonna let ffxiv die without a fight and they will do some drastic stuff to save it, if they have too.

Agreed, if FFXIV is anything like FFXI, We'll go to FFXIV it in 7 Years when its actually playable riding the tide of Q_Q tears from those who think its ruined because its too casual, even though in reality its more fun, accessible and enjoyable than before, its just people have been playing it for 7 years and it no longer excites them like it used to, so they try to find things to scapegoat their blame on.

See you guys on FFXIV in 7 years ;O

[Leonlionheart]

You're also forgetting about people who quit FFXI because after they came back from the mess that is XIV, they didn't like the direction XI took, because they enjoyed how FFXI was before. I can name 10~15 people that I knew in game for a LOOOONG time (I would even chat with them in ventrillo sometimes) who very much enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. They never complained about not having certain pieces of gear, or cried constantly about how it was so hard to do something.

No. They enjoyed the difficulty level of the game, and they enjoyed that when they DID obtain an epic piece of gear, it made it all the more worthwhile in having it. They enjoyed how "Epic" certain things were, and the kindergarten that is now Abyssea, was a spit in their face. Why? Because "The Heart" that Anewie and I speak of, was torn out from their game. What was that "Heart"?

It was the "Epicness" in achieving something, and actually doing things that felt worthwhile. But now when I mindlessly grind on Magian trials, or farm some fairly simple NM's for the best gear, that sense of "Epicness" is not there anymore. And yes, this IS the reason why alot of people quit..

You're talking about a minority. This 'hardcore' gamer minority also tends to be the loudest because casuals just don't really care that much.

Like I said earlier, casuals is where the money's at.

Even if all these players giving feed back are considered, 80% of the population of FFXI will never see these forums besides maybe the update notes.

[Leonlionheart]

It was the "Epicness" in achieving something, and actually doing things that felt worthwhile. But now when I mindlessly grind on Magian trials, or farm some fairly simple NM's for the best gear, that sense of "Epicness" is not there anymore. And yes, this IS the reason why alot of people quit..

So "Epicness" to you was doing salvage over and over and over and over and over to get the one drop you want?
Or was it camping HNM for 3 hours in the odd hours of the night?
Or was it farming diorite for 8 hours only to have no Byakko's Haidate drop?
Maybe you just loved doing Dynamis week after week to never see Assassin's armlets?

Now me and my friends can go out and accomplish bigger goals with less amount of time.

If you enjoy things that take excessive amounts of time, a hobby like watching paint dry might be more suitable for you than video games.

[Akujima]

You're talking about a minority. This 'hardcore' gamer minority also tends to be the loudest because casuals just don't really care that much.

Like I said earlier, casuals is where the money's at.

Even if all these players giving feed back are considered, 80% of the population of FFXI will never see these forums besides maybe the update notes.

You're not reading it properly.

My friends and I enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. "Pre" as in Before Endgame (Kings, Sea, Salvage, etc).

@Leonlionheart: It was the developers idea to toss aside old issues with how brutal something was to obtain, rather than fix and adjust the drop rates or shortening the time it took to get whatever item you wanted. So don't blame me. I realize some things we're extremely overdone.

An example is Relics taking 1~1.5 years to get, which is quite bogus (Something like 6~7 months seems decent enough to call them "Epic"). But complaints about Ying-Yang Robe, Chary or Black Belt are just ridiculous. I've spoken to people who said it was too difficult to obtain O-Kote or Fuma Kyahan, which just tips the scale over to laziness.

What they COULD have done is adjusted the drop rates, lowered the timers A LITTLE BIT.

But instead, with Abyssea. What they did was sweep the problems under the rug, instead of truly cleaning up the mess.

[Leonlionheart]

You're not reading it properly.

My friends and I enjoyed Pre-Endgame 75. "Pre" as in before (Kings, Sea, Salvage, etc ).

... So leveling up?

Then I have good news, now instead of killing colibri from 37~75 in level sync you can now solo/duo/trio rather easily to 75!
If you hated level sync, then just make a party that syncs to you!

Even then casual players still enjoy the current game more, because they can do more than just level up and buy AH gear now. Making a Seal party is pretty much the same as making an exp party, except you don't get the fun of being restricted to SAM SAM WAR BRD COR RDM using only penta thrust.