Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

[Charismatic]

Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

[Arcon]

A mob like that would be better tanked by a DRK, MNK, or RDM long, long, long before a Paladin. Defense is worthless. Bloodtanking on PLD is worthless. Any "PLD tanking" that involves PLD/WAR is going to be worthless. It's harsh, and I apologize for that, but it's the truth and there's no need to reiterate in detail why bloodtanking is bad every time someone posts about bloodtanking/defense.

It's harsh alright, but I still fail to see the truth part. PLD is a great defensive tank and takes less damage than all these jobs, MNK may be arguable (and situational), but especially with new PLD gear I'm positive they would still take less damage in most cases. And Defense does play a role, if not a huge one. As I mentioned before, Defense needs to be adjusted to provide more of a difference, it's a flaw with the game, not with PLD. Still, PLD has plenty of JAs and spells and especially equipment that drastically reduce the amount of damage they take. Shield blocks play a huge role in that, enhanced a lot by Reprisal. Phalanx helps a good deal on certain mobs as well. Sentinel and Rampart are great, although obviously on a timer. Even Flash helps, I've avoided more than one hard hitting TP move in my time with that.

And check out their gear, even without Ochain/Aegis. AF3 set reduces up to 15% damage, not counting the high Defense, Vitality, Shield Skill, Shield Defense Bonus and an absorb effect, which is another factor (5%, which does not count towards the cap), which adds even more in damage taken over time calculations, since it actually cures you. This is especially nice in solo situations, or lowman without a healer, when damage taken over time matters a lot more. I've seen a PLD solo King Arthro at 75, I don't think a MNK could have pulled that off, even spamming Hi-Potions, which still wouldn't be the same.

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.

Or maybe they should just give PLD some offensive options/traits that utilize some of the unique tools we have now and call it a day, because... honestly, that would fix all the problems that we currently have.

Arguable, personally I don't wanna deal damage comparable to any actual damage dealer. It may be a solution, but not one I'd be happy with. Rather improve the tanking aspect, or rather, reestablish the tanking aspect, as it's been lost in the depths of Abyssea. These days people call any DD that can keep hate through cure spams a tank. This definition is the only thing that's wrong with PLD's standing in the game. Once actual tanking will have a meaning again, PLD will be sought out again.

[Greatguardian]

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

Dark Knight and Red Mage can wear all of the same (or Better, in RDM's case) PDT armor as Paladin, with Red Mage getting a stronger Phalanx, the ability to wear a Terra's without penalty, native Stoneskin/Aquaveil/Haste, and Fast Cast. Dark Knight has Dread Spikes, the same Bashes as Paladin, Drains, Stuns, and the ability to utilize Seigan on their best DD sub if they do not need to sub NIN. Dark Knight has been a stronger tank than Paladin since 2007.

Monk has even better -PDT gear than Paladin, more HP, and a JA which reduces incoming non-TP/Magic damage taken by 75%. In the world of Bloodtanking, Monk is king.

Paladin has, what, Defense Bonus JT? Their AF3+2 absorb rate? Non-Ochain Shields?

Both your argument and Mirage's rely on Changing the value of Defense to make Paladin more useful. I am simply using the current value of Defense and making an assessment. You talk about adding stronger monsters that require a real Tank, but Paladin is not even the best "Tank" in the game. It was not even Abyssea that changed this. Paladin declined when players realized that any good player on any job can tank anything in the game. Abyssea only allowed more players to take on a "good player" mentality. That is all it did. It did not make it any easier for Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight to tank circles around Paladin.

That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

[Charismatic]

Exactly, Greatguardian... and we've learned throughout the years that the best way to establish and maintain enmity is through damage. Why, then, should a tanking job not utilize this? I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?
What I'd like to see from Square is a way to take the current Paladin playstyle and take some of our abilities and modify them to do damage in a unique way.
Perhaps a spell that shares a timer with Flash (similar to Despoil, Spirit Jump and Soul Jump) and performs a similar function. High enmity gain, and a very potent blind effect, but at the same time... it could do damage.
Perhaps damage following the drain formula and the blind effect could work similar to the SCH Helix spells (with a slightly longer duration than flash's blindness currently has), of course the additional damage wouldn't cause any hate but it could be a high enmity spell perhaps modified by the damage done by the initial strike... oh, and to make it a little more attractive, unlike many other damaging abilities... this one wouldn't give the enemy any TP to keep it in line with the current Flash spell.

Perhaps Rampart's magical shield could absorb damage and Paladin could be given an ability similar to disgorge that shoots out that stored up energy? But if that were done I'd say it should only be the damage from the most recent usage of Rampart.

I mean, I came up with this stuff in like 2 minutes. If there were a team of guys at square thinking on this, I'm sure they could come up with something better. We don't necessarily have to hit super hard with our swords to do damage, but we should be doing damage.

[Arcon]

After reading and responding to enough of your walls of text I'm going to be brief this time. Monk, Dark Knight, and Red Mage all have better defensive gear and take less damage than Paladin when bloodtanking (bar Ochain, the exception is not the rule). This is cold, hard fact.

No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).

The question is now if shield blocks (which, alone, almost make up for most damage mitigating abilities from other jobs), almost equally strong Phalanx (4 damage less absorbed, considering generous RDM gear, not to mention Phalanx gets more useful, the less damage players take), Reprisal, Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Defense Bonus, Shield Defense Bonus, Critical Defense Bonus and Shield Mastery outweigh a marginally stronger Phalanx, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Haste, Refresh II and Fast Cast (Haste and Refresh or Refresh II are usually cast on the PLD as well, at least in a group situation), or Dread Spikes, Stun, Drain and Weapon Bash in the DRK's case, and Counterstance in MNK's case (although that may be considered blink tanking, as you're sacrificing defense for a chance to not take damage at all). And that's where the terms "arguable" and "situational" come in.

It should be noted that I never even said those jobs aren't great tanks (we had a RDM main tank in our LS, I was co/backup-tank as a career PLD, and a MNK that would put most PLDs to shame in terms of survival). I just find your (repeated) dismissal of PLD as a worthless tank a completely groundless statement. Not to mention misinformation about gear and taking damage. If you find anything wrong with the gear I posted above or any alternative pieces I missed, feel free to correct me.

That said, considering pretty much every single fix you've advocated for Paladin involves changing fundamental game mechanics instead of actually adjusting the Paladin job, I'm sure this will just fall on deaf ears. Let's just assume you and I will never agree. I want a realistic job change that addresses the issues Paladin has inside its current working environment. You want to change the working environment of the game in order to make Paladin more favorable. That's that. They're not compatible.

Honestly, right now I can't even remember reading what you suggested for PLD. The reason I advocate changes to the game is because I feel that nothing is inherently wrong with PLD itself. Defense on the other hand is simply underrated as a defensive stat (as you admitted yourself). Enmity issues cannot be solved by simply doing more damage or getting higher enmity spells. That's why I wanna change those two aspects, it's nothing PLD specific in either case.

I'm wondering why there are Paladins out there who don't want to do damage. What benefit is there to not doing it?

Because I'm looking at it from a role-playing point of view. Paladins are meant to be defensive, not offensive. I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing any damage at all (they are knights after all), I said they shouldn't be comparable to actual damage dealers, which is what they would be required to be, if they wanna keep up on tanking these days. I was perfectly happy with Atonement, it was a moderate attack, way above PLD's average, yet below good damage dealers' capabilities. That beig said, I wouldn't mind something similar again, I just don't want them to be just another DD.

[Zagen]

I doubt a lot of people have tried PLD tanking in Abyssea, because there's simply no need for it. But calling it worthless is just wrong. I've blood tanked inside and outside of Abyssea with 100% success as far as I can recall. Even if it's not the best option in many cases, how does that make it worthless? Maybe your definition of that word simply differs from the actual definition, without value/merit, not contributing. Both of these things are objectively wrong for PLD tanking. This is not a matter of opinion. And it's not the first time you deemed something that isn't the absolute perfect solution worthless.

I've done it, my PLD is better geared than my MNK overall and I will tell you this much PLD does it slower and worse. Less damage dealt means the NMs live longer and it is harder to recap hate. Dealt more damage causing my WHM to spend much more MP than if I was on MNK. The MP on a WHM is near limitless but it isn't limitless.

Edit: Dealt more damage excluding monsters such as Ironclads where all hits are TP moves.

I love PLD and am working toward Almace/Ochain but even I know and I'll admit my other job options just tank better currently under the same circumstances inside or outside of Abyssea.

[Darka]

No, it's arguable. The "taking less damage" part, that is. The better defensive gear part is just wrong. Paladin's have the best defensive gear of any job available. Why you fail to see this I don't know. What does DRK have on PLD? Nothing. What does PLD have on DRK? AF3+2 body and legs, a shield and generally higher defense gear. What does RDM have on PLD? Umbra Cape and, depending on how you play, a weapon to mitigate damage (which PLD can also use in the form of sword/shield, maintaining its usefulness, or even staff (and Eisen Grip), if shield blocks aren't required). What does PLD have on RDM? AF3+2 body and legs, Ruffian Leggings and Nierenschutz. Not to mention Metallon Mantle is almost as good as Umbra Cape. What does MNK have on PLD? Arhat's Jinpachi +1 and Black Belt. What does PLD have on MNK? AF3+2 body and legs, Metallon Mantle, Ruffian Leggings, Heavy Gauntlets. That's just the job-exclusive slots, of course there's more overall, but since all jobs can share those, it hardly matters. And it's not even taking the absorb rate into account, strictly PDT. With the additional absorb rate could save even more damage (and it goes over cap too, which may also apply to the AF3+2 body's effect).

Outside of shield blocks, almost every job can match and some beat PLD in defensive abilities. Plenty of options for most jobs to hit 50%PDT and MDT. MNK has counterstance, which procs a lot more than shield does (Ochain being an exception of course), SAM has Seigan and Third Eye, RDM has Stoneskin, DRK has Stun for reliable recasts, all of which can /NIN, even /SAM for 2 handers is a reliable defensive tool. Shield blocks are too much of a variable even with capped skill to compare it with those abilities, unless of course Ochain. Also the set bonus is around ~5%, and using the full set over PDT swaps is in the long run less optimal.

Sentinel is a whole 30 seconds of diminishing PDT, used more often for it's enmity boost rather than defense unless it's a critical situation, shield def bonus relies on the shield variable, and crit def bonus is small. I'm not saying PLD doesn't have a lot of defensive abilities, but most of them are minimal gains, and don't set it apart significantly from other jobs, besides shield (which kinda loses some value if /NIN).

[Judge]

Kind of seeing this "limited thinking" over and over again in this thread and others. Why should everyone have to level MNK or NIN to tank something if they already have PLD as an option. PLD isn't worthless. it just lacks the advantages given to DD's since the 75 cap was removed. PLD can tank, although it may be slower due to damage dealing limits. People are entitled to their choices of jobs. And of course there is situations that require a different approach to be optimal.. but that doesn't mean everything has to be done in a pre-determined strategy.

If ur a good player.. then using PLD as an option won't matter. there is going to be some work involved on any hard mob. and if the mob isn't hard.. then why argue who tanks better? Either you work for it.. or you want Easy button fights... for that matter i would just toss BST at it and go grill a steak while my pet does the work for me.

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

[Zagen]

Outside of abyssea has changed in only the aspect that players have higher base stats and higher skill caps than before with the same mobs/stats. SE will either come around and re-balance it.. or we will have to deal with DD jobs that have reached a level of "too much power".

Don't forget that the level penalty is gone or no longer a big issue as most HNMs are Even Match at best level wise now. Considering a lot of gear from Sky, Land Kings, etc is beaten by Emp +1 and SE said that even with Synergy upgrades at best you'd match Emp+1 I highly doubt they will waste time re-balancing old content.

[Aeonk]

This is how you fix PLD in and out of abyssea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oKh0yEGC2M