How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Seriha]

Let's not pretend that using Slow and Para is nothing compared to the T2s. Other jobs can cast them, and a 3 minute ability does not a master Enfeebler make. Did you know RDM has 22 potential debuffs to BLU's 62? Somethin' fishy there.

As for meleeing being a component to your buffs and debuffs... The job is called Dancer. Go ahead and play that if it is the playstyle you are looking for out of your RDM.

You probably ignored my earlier commentary about ideas RDMs proposed years ago actually hitting the game, but not for RDM (Accession/Diffusion/Steps). As is, RDMs and DNCs working together is pretty much impossible for the RDM (Samba/Enspell conflict). Simply telling someone to play another job is being the poster child of closed-minded. Believe it or not, it's possible for RDM to put its own unique spin to things. As is, BLU is a melee mage specializing in spike damage. RDM could be the DoT cousin. We're close, but still need some nudges.

[Bigboy]

Simply telling someone to play another job is being the poster child of closed-minded.

No, it's called being a realist. Close minded is refusing to see a truth because it doesn't coincide with your established thought on a subject. If one medicine doesn't cure you, and a Doctor tells you that it's because frog piss doesn't actually reduce swelling, but there are numerous working options you could choose from, the Doctor isn't being close minded. I am getting really tired of being told I can't see or understand what people are telling me when they themselves are just projecting their own problems onto me.

You are close minded. You want RDM to be something it isn't. You want to drastically change the job. The job changes described already exist in other jobs. If those things are important to you, then play those jobs, quit trying to hammer this screw in.

[Rayik]

No, it's called being a realist. Close minded is refusing to see a truth because it doesn't coincide with your established thought on a subject. If one medicine doesn't cure you, and a Doctor tells you that it's because frog piss doesn't actually reduce swelling, but there are numerous working options you could choose from, the Doctor isn't being close minded. I am getting really tired of being told I can't see or understand what people are telling me when they themselves are just projecting their own problems onto me.

You are close minded. You want RDM to be something it isn't. You want to drastically change the job. The job changes described already exist in other jobs. If those things are important to you, then play those jobs, quit trying to hammer this screw in.

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

Quoted for truth, though the blind will still not see it.

And in the past, I've even said I'd give up on the melee crusade if SE really took the enfeebling ball and ran with it, but they haven't. Lately we've been seeing all these juicy little stats wiggling their way into the game that we could manipulate, but all we got to speak of was Addle. I don't hate the spell, but it's as useful as Silence on a melee mob.

And that WHM are getting in the next cap, so we once more have no enfeebles to be the "enfeebling" job.

As it stands RDM is in no shape or form unique, not even a little. RDM is a failure of a job that if they really have no interest of fixing, they should just remove.

If you really want to see how RDM should have been look to what they've made BLU recently. I mean BLU's can do anything and everything better than RDM, balanced I think not.

Better Healer's
Better DD's
Better Enfeebler's
Better Enhancer's
Better Nuker's

Sorry, if people think that's balanced a wall is waiting for your head to be slammed into, I get RDM is Jack of all traits, master of none.. But RDM isn't even average in any field let alone capable in them.

And this is the reason why, come next update, unless drastic change comes I will not be levelling RDM further.

[Bigboy]

I can see both side of you guys' arguments, but if RDM were absolutely not meant to be melee, then why on earth do we have a B rating in swords and daggers, have trial swords, and access to a plethora of melee gear? If melee is "something the job isn't", then please explain this to me. Explain to me why we have a job ability, Composure, which gives +10 Accuracy to melee.

If we were having this discussion in the SMN or SCH forums you'd be winning. But this isn't SMN, SCH, or even BLM. This is RDM, what was at least at some point, intended to be a melee spellcaster.

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS. Now the reason this argument doesn't even come up in the other job boards you mentioned is because they all realize what they are good at. RDM have always had this deficiency. People have been trying to say it should be "Fixed" and SE tosses you a bone every now and then for melee, but the truth is, they only think you should melee when solo. Composure kind of highlights this. Increased recasts don't matter out of party, but if you are trying to heal, or stun, or keep a bunch of mobs slept, having all your recasts increased by 25% really sucks.

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.

Every single argument that they intended to make RDM a front line fighter are BS. The most obvious reason is because after 8 years, it still isn't.

[Duelle]

When we were given the option to melee, it was never intended to be great. It was intended to be an alternative to sleep nuking. RDM in FFXI is kinda viewed like a secret agent(Do the AF). Physically capable, but not a soldier.

I'm surprised you thought to bring up Rainemard. Rainemard was a guy that stuck his nose where it didn't belong and got him quartered and stuffed in a box. That AF quest line was less about Red Mage and more about Rainemard.

Since you brought up the super RDM (he doesn't spam cures, haste and refresh in campaign, by the way), there's a thread on the JP forums about how they want RDM to be more like Rainemard instead of, well, you know. So you could say part of the melee camp wants notable damage boosts to enspells.

And there is another fault of SE's, RDM has no native staff skill, they should therefore not wear Staves, but SE made the best magical damage/accuracy weapons a staff.

Staves being a generic mage weapon is fine. The problem is more the fact that your spells are barely passable without them at certain levels, not to mention how magic accuracy is calculated overall. Hybrids tend to suffer because having two very different accuracy stats to take into account leads to watered down itemization or design-inherent gimpness.

Since someone decided to mention our meritable enfeebles as evidence to why we aren't meant to melee, I thought of something. If SE removed Blind II, Para II, Dia III, Bio III, and Phalanx II from meritable abilities, gave those to us baseline (quested like the teleport scrolls would be nice...) and (personal fantasy alert) condensed the poorly-thought out elemental affinities and filled those empty slots with new merits, would anyone here throw a fit? >.>

[Rayik]

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS.

There's a big difference between having a B rating in club with one decent ws, and having swords and daggers at just as high of a rating, with having access to melee-specific gear like Dusk, Scorpion's Harness, Brisk Mask, Tumbler Trunks, Rager's Ledelsen's, etc. Gee, why isn't WHM on that gear?

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?

Have MAcc be derived from a percentage of total melee Acc while in melee and you wouldn't need to worry about MAcc when front-lining. Could probably do something similar for nukes, but I haven't putzed around with the idea enough.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.

[Duelle]

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?

Funny thing is I thought maybe the disconnect was that the trait was called something else in Japanese. Turns out it's also called Fencer in the JP version (フェンサー), not something like Ittouryuu (一刀流) or anything like that.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.

Not to devalue the way you do things, because I think it is great to know and play with people who are open-minded, but all that does is circumvent the problem without actually fixing it.

Not to mention that decent melee numbers seem to rely quite a bit on dual wielding with either Double Attack proccing or a multi-hitter (hence why we're stuck with Khanda, Joyeuse and Justice Sword). The solution should also span across all levels, since the weirdness of lacking magic accuracy pops up at around the time those infernal staves enter the game: the early 50s. The big mistake with the level cap increases was that RDM goes from zero to hero in melee just because of CDC without the actual playstyle build-up that other classes experience.