How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Frost]

The 200% was a flipped bit in my brain, depending on existing Haste, you add 66% more damage to each party member if they're capped on Gear haste (and they should be...) that times a minimum of 3 melees = ~200%, but it's actually just 66% overall, more if there's March and/or sambas present.

The "dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold" comment is in reference to Para II, Slow II, Blind, & Buffs.

I'm not talking about subbing Rdm, I'm saying you'd be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

And still have the ability to sub Nin?

You're ok with that?

Because you're basically asking for that in inverse... And yet you can't seem to find anything wrong with your request? Really? (Credit to Duelle however, for actually taking a logical step in the right direction with the comment about stances.)

And your only answers to why you think Rdm should have a stronger melee presence is that you have a sword skill, enspells, and a history of all of one game where Rdm was a solid melee?

Every job has a weapon or three. Just cause Smn and Blm have a high staff skill doesn't mean they should be whacking stuff with it. Hell, Black Mage has f'ing Scythe!

Smn have enspells too, does that mean they should be meleeing also? Hell, anything that subs rdm gets Enspells, does that mean Blm/Rdm or Sch/Rdm should melee?

And as pointed out, the only time RDM had a strong melee presence was in FF1. And currently the level at which you CAN melee (As well as nuke) matches that level offered in other Final Fantasy games.

Red Mages' position in a party is better served on the backline, where your strengths are. Not on the front line where you become a liability.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.

What groups don't need is some guy distracted by how big his Vorpal Blade is...

If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.

Any way you cut it, it's just impractical.

Then get a WHM to do that, outside of enfeebling which is about 5 seconds worth of spells RDM is not the healer, or enhancer as proved by the lack of spells to do as much.

You thinking it is shows you do not know what a RDM is.

[Frost]

Then get a WHM to do that, outside of enfeebling which is about 5 seconds worth of spells RDM is not the healer, or enhancer as proved by the lack of spells to do as much.

You thinking it is shows you do not know what a RDM is.

First, you're out of your mind. If you think Rdm is not an enhancer? then what are Phalanx, Pro, Shell, Haste, etc?

Second, and this goes for all of you, If you even have time to melee on Rdm, you're a horrible Rdm...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

First, you're out of your mind. If you think Rdm is not an enhancer? then what are Phalanx, Pro, Shell, Haste, etc?

Second, and this goes for all of you, If you even have time to melee on Rdm, you're a horrible Rdm...

You're joking right? WHM does Protect and Shell better than us, Phalanx is self target so... that leaves Haste alone.

Would probably work at offending people if you're opinion on RDM meant anything, sadly it does not so... Troll harder.

[Bigboy]

You're joking right? WHM does Protect and Shell better than us, Phalanx is self target so... that leaves Haste alone.

Would probably work at offending people if you're opinion on RDM meant anything, sadly it does not so... Troll harder.

You make a valid point. RDM is a completely useless job. Apparently, in this thread we have learned that RDM does absolutely nothing that warrents their existence in a party. They can't heal worth a damn, they can't buff, somehow enfeebling is pointless, their nukes (despite allowing them to 2 shot mobs) aren't up to snuff, and the goal of posters in the thread are to bring up their melee skills, but not to the point of a "melee only" job (because we all know that would make them broken).

So, the job has no use in a party that someone else can't do better, and your goal is to become subpar by enhancing something that would make them still not as good as everyone else. Every time you guys say someone has no idea what it is to be a RDM and start posting this non-sense, it makes me wonder if you are just arguing from a point of ignorance. That's not to say you are stupid, but you just don't know what you are talking about, and so actual information looks foreign to you, and therefor wrong.

Do any of you have jobs other than RDM? Do you know what it's like to not be in the situation you are in? You talk like you've only leveled RDM and have never been another job watching a RDM play. You'd see that RDM is a very strong mage job, and that asking for enhancements to your melee would require equal enhancements to every melee, just to keep balance. You are not one of the 5 PURE melee DPS jobs. If you want to be viable for that spot, you play that job.

If you feel like you should be able to fill the spot of a DRK or BLU or NIN as a caster/melee hybrid, you are just not being realistic. Many of you say that you play RDM instead of these other jobs because you like the play style. If that were true, you wouldn't be trying to modify it so drastically.

[Rayik]

Just give RDM Vorpal Blade, and/or Sanguine Blade.. Bam. Frontline job.

[Bigboy]

Just give RDM Vorpal Blade, and/or Sanguine Blade.. Bam. Frontline job.

Actually... Yes. I can get behind this. I feel like that alone would mix things up a bit without breaking things.

[Neisan_Quetz]

(snipped for length) Red Mages' position in a party is better served on the backline, where your strengths are. Not on the front line where you become a liability.

So a Rdm's position is to be a -1 Sch at 99? Is that what you're saying?
Stop Bringing up Blm and scythe, Rdm still has better melee gear and Weaponskills than all 3 of Sch, Blm, and Smn. They are the only meleers in the game worst than us, and you're okay with that? Why, exactly?

You make a valid point. RDM is a completely useless job. Apparently, in this thread we have learned that RDM does absolutely nothing that warrents their existence in a party. They can't heal worth a damn, they can't buff, somehow enfeebling is pointless, their nukes (despite allowing them to 2 shot mobs) aren't up to snuff, and the goal of posters in the thread are to bring up their melee skills, but not to the point of a "melee only" job (because we all know that would make them broken).

So, the job has no use in a party that someone else can't do better, and your goal is to become subpar by enhancing something that would make them still not as good as everyone else. Every time you guys say someone has no idea what it is to be a RDM and start posting this non-sense, it makes me wonder if you are just arguing from a point of ignorance. That's not to say you are stupid, but you just don't know what you are talking about, and so actual information looks foreign to you, and therefor wrong.

Do any of you have jobs other than RDM? Do you know what it's like to not be in the situation you are in? You talk like you've only leveled RDM and have never been another job watching a RDM play. You'd see that RDM is a very strong mage job, and that asking for enhancements to your melee would require equal enhancements to every melee, just to keep balance. You are not one of the 5 PURE melee DPS jobs. If you want to be viable for that spot, you play that job.

If you feel like you should be able to fill the spot of a DRK or BLU or NIN as a caster/melee hybrid, you are just not being realistic. Many of you say that you play RDM instead of these other jobs because you like the play style. If that were true, you wouldn't be trying to modify it so drastically.

You're almost getting it now. If nothing is changed at 99 Rdm won't be desired in a party setting at all, and will be the Blm of the Tau era, wanted for all of 3 enfeebles no one else will be able to get/Accession if people even want them at all for those 3 enfeebles.

[Seriha]

Actually, we're here because WE don't like RDM's current playing style. Disliking it doesn't automatically translate into a hands in the air, "OMG WE'RE USELESS!" rant. You'll find I'm someone that doesn't just generically want Cure V to help our viability. I know RDM can handle the average abyssea fight, and I'm not above inviting another RDM or SCH for the harder things to help cure, but I'm also someone who has WHM leveled, so what's the point? I can switch and have one less mouth to feed.

Now, I know blabbing about what all I have leveled doesn't have a whole lot of meaning these days, but prior to the cap increase and Abyssea, I had 13 jobs at 75, everything else pretty much sub ready for 99 cap aside from PUP and MNK. RDM has never actually gotten a whole lot from HNMs or other endgame spheres, being absent from things like the ZNM sets, even. Even as far as Limbus' introduced, we would've liked to have been on Homam, but instead got the crap that is Nashira while BLU winds up on both sets. Nonetheless, my jobs were pretty decently geared. I did the SAM/DNC thing in campaign since it beat fully rebuffing every 2:30, easily capping EXP for fights well over a half hour if they managed to last that long. I did the BLM thing at Dynamis. I tanked on DRK for lowman stuff. Perhaps the only things I never really arsed myself to do were AV and PW, but that was a mix of the numbers game and me feeling like they were a complete waste of time to chase since, despite often being the LS RDM and all it's WHM-wannabe or Refresh whore glory, I would have NEVER been priority for things like the Sash or other useful items for the jobs that could've used them because we all know it's more efficient to not pander to a melee RDM in the game's current state. So screw them.

You're also talking to someone who didn't like the old solos. NMs should've picked up Bind resistance over time like they did Gravity. DoTs should've gradually gone shorter in duration. Zoned mobs should instantly heal to full regardless of DoTs. Take us off the Ceremonial Dagger. Actually do something about the BS that's pinning. I'd give all this "power" up in a heartbeat just so people couldn't try to dangle it over our heads, but the funny thing is a lot of it isn't exclusive to RDM. We already saw rage timers, flee speeds, outright resists, potent regens, and other counters to cripple this behavior. Of course, publicly declaring such has earned me the bile of those RDMs who only find these particular activities fun about the job. Didn't really matter they were circumventing Dev intent, they just wanted to do it, or merc themselves off to others for profit. Meanwhile, for every pro RDM who thought spending 4 hours to DoT Genbu to death was cool, I could've been in and out with my LS in 5 minutes. I have zero sympathy for those intentionally delay the play of others like that, and I'm sure we've all grumbled about similar in Abyssea... which is only worse since it's literally a time sensitive environment.

Otherwise, you talk about 2 shotting mobs with nukes. Sure, you can pump ice nukes to that level in Abyssea, but if you're going melee, odds are you'll be doing something like RR/GH/AoA. Your nukes will drop sharply then. You won't have the MP flow to sustain nuking every time the cooldown is up (Hell, we don't when we're Beyond/MM/Ultimate). You'll basically be a crappy mage if you still insist on that... which of course gets the RDM in trouble because their efficiency has dropped for whatever reason. Could be the sub, could be not swapping a staff because you wanna keep TP, could be your party members being retards, could be you're spread too thin because some nimrods out there believe that infinite MP tripe.

Put simply, people want efficiency. People want the path of least resistance that leads to the most plentiful results. RDM melee is the hardest aspect of the job to gear, and relative to nuking as a damage source, is basically inferior. Our buff side is grossly overstated. What most mean to say is Utsusemi makes us "gods" at times, which last I checked is a NIN ability. Our debuffs really aren't all that when they can land, and we all know WHM can brute force their way through a fight even without casting their T1 versions of Slow and Para (And to the Efficiency Police, enfeebling is A Bad Thing(tm) since the MNK can't counter as often!).

Back in the day, I used to say something like RDM is 1/9 WAR, 5/9 WHM, and 3/9 BLM. Nowadays, you could drop a point off WHM and add it to BLM, if only because of T4 nukes. We've obviously gotten no new cures or meaningful party buffs. Still, I'd like this ratio to eventually become more of 1/3rd each, but I'm not so dense as it to limit it purely to damage. Melee and Support aren't mutually exclusive roles. Would you let a RDM melee if it meant they could cast a 20% Haste instead of 15%? How about a 45% Slow instead of 35%? That's just the beginning kiddies, and it doesn't even demand 4k+ WS to work.

[Carth]

Actually... Yes. I can get behind this. I feel like that alone would mix things up a bit without breaking things.

Now I SWEAR I said just getting Sanguine Blade natively would satisfy a lot of people.