How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Supersun]

Because if SE though that Rdm melee should be abandoned completely they wouldn't have given us Composure and Enspell IIs. Mind you they weren't exactly implemented in the best ways but then again, that was a time when the majority of the player base though we were overpowered because we had the big 4 of healing, convert, refresh, haste, and cures.

Not to mention that 3 of those were originally added to help Rdm melee in the first place since Rdms kept running out of MP while meleeing since they couldn't rest, but were implemented poorly.

And while our healing was definitely overpowered during the ToA era and Rdm was pigeonholed into the healing role we certainly aren't in that spot anymore. The longevity that let us heal exclusively is now mostly subbable with the entire big 4 being available with /Rdm49 and Rdm healing is isn't even taken seriously anymore which is probably a good thing since every job will have Rdms healing power by 99 by just subbing the job.

So if we aren't allowed to melee where does that leave us? The white/black magic hybrid that uses them less effectively then sch? There's really only 2 ways that we could be different then Sch and SE has deemed BOTH of those ways as not correct.

We could enfeeble, but what good is being the master of enfeebling when everything worth enfeebling comes factory default immune? And anything else that we can enfeeble either dies too fast to matter or comes in so large of number other jobs out perform us just because they have AoE versions.

And if you say Enhancing then clearly YOU are the one not seeing SE's direction since 90% of our buffs are self target only. Really, the only exceptions are Protect and Shell (which have AoE versions we don't have), and Haste and Refresh (we do have more options with /sch but pretty much all of those options Sch/Rdm can use as well with way more charges then we have). How many does Whm have that can be used on the party, not even going to bother counting since it's way too many. Even Sch has been getting more buffs that can be used on the party, and what new enhancing spell did they happen to get...Regain...Yes, that's right, Scholar has received more melee buffs then Red Mage post 75 with their Regain spell and Occult Acumen (not like that one matters that much though due to staff switching, but it is still a melee buff none the less)

So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The fact is RDM is a MELEE Mage, that means we can do both.. Not as good as the natural jobs can IE: We can't heal as well as a WHM, nuke as well as a BLM or DD as well as a WAR which was what RDM was a combination of..... However, when you can not DD better than a WHM, BRD or BLM there is something seriously wrong, no matter how much anyone wants to say that it's acceptable it is NOT.

What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)

[Daniel]

Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.

[Carth]

One could argue the "Balance" you request could be achieved via your subjob choice.
No, read that again. It is in fact true.

RedMAGES are only really lopsided as a MAGE because YOU chose a MAGE sub. Everything you're asking for here could be attained by subbing War, Dark, or even Nin.

Do you think we're idiots or something? There has been massive experimentation with all DD subs for years, even /PLD. /WAR gives strong DOT from Berserk and Aggressor, /DRK gives strong weapon skill damage with LR and SoulEater, /NIN gives... hell, just about everything except a strong WS (and Sanguine Blade is a strong WS. A lot of RDMs would be satisfied if this were native to the job).

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

I'll respect this portion of the post, but it's actually inaccurate in some way. The fundamental difference is that BLU is invited, most of the time, to deal damage. We don't want that. We just simply want our weakest side of the spectrum (Melee) to be given a boost to warrant the option of entering the party with the build of a DD. Ideally, we'd be fine if cast nukes (which was the intent, and is why we have fast cast), but it takes a toll on our MP (outside Abyssea), and such MP is more valued to cure members of the party and at times yourself. Also, no one skillchains systematically anymore so magic bursting is hardly an option.

The idea is to support the party with all options, which means to help the party do their respective jobs. We help the WHMs cure, help the BLMs nuke, and help the DDs kill the mob faster. If WHMs don't need help, we gear more for nuking and DD. If nuking is somehow not a viable option (Colibri for example), we gear more strongly for melee DD and use our MP to heal. If Melee isn't an option? We go backline.

If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change.

This is actually not a problem at all.

So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?

I still see that as a troll update.

What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)

Eh, we can make due with what we have. It's post 75 where things really started to trinkle down, though thankfully they released the cap off of enhancing magics, so our enspells (our main source of damage) is still viable. To be frank if Enspell IIs were calculated on cast, and worked on multiple hits, even if they didn't apply for the off-hand, they'd replace Tier I enspells without much debate.

And keep in mind, the idea is that our big damage comes from nukes.

Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.

I'm not sure why people continue to bring up this point.

[Duelle]

I'm not sure why people continue to bring up this point.

It's typical of the "let's not make a hybrid acceptable in <insert role here>" crowd. I used to see that all the time in another game. And the answer was always the same: "People will play what they like. Those who like to tank or heal will still do so. So what's the big deal?"

[Ophannus]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

[Neisan_Quetz]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

Except RDM was touted as a meleeing mage before BLU existed in FFXI (mostly used by the community as an extra healer due to convert/refresh, before both rdm was virtually useless as far as players were concerned and some people just melee'd Rdm/war...). As it stands inside or outside Abyssea Rdm isn't that useful for Healing, Nuking (debateable, use to be better than Blm due to amount of nukes but Blm has Celerity now, outside Sch is better), or Buffing (Whm is a far better enhancer than Rdm, Sch/Rdm will be as well with haste at 99, why do people keep saying we are good buffers when we're not really good buffers), That leaves debuffs and Melee/Go solo/lowman. At 99 we will have all of 3 unique debuffs (4 if you merit Blind 2) unless SE changes things, if you can't see why this is a problem idk what to say.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

Completely wrong, even attempting to make out RDM is not a melee mage is rather dumb.

[Seriha]

Frankly, I don't care if a BRD or WHM melees, either. Long as people are living and things aren't being overly taxed for the party, swing away if you're geared for it. That said, and I think where people get hung up on this at times, the "why" on why giving RDM more melee prowess despite its other quirks actually lies in the differentiation between other jobs. Sword and Dagger are only two of numerous weapon categories, which you can then further break down into weapon skills and skillchain possibilities. Jobs like SAM ooze STP to crank out the x-hit builds so they can WS more. DRKs get all their ATK and Crit bonuses to make each count all the much more. THFs up the damage efficiency of daggers with their JAs on top of various hate manipulation methods. Are these gross simplifications? Sure. It's a start, though, on why you can still pick up other jobs and have your perks.

Meanwhile, it's not too hard to actually look at RDM's stats and pick up the lopsidedness toward the mage end.

Mage Traits and Abilities:
Fast Cast V
Magic Attack Bonus III
Magic Burst Bonus
Clear Mind III
Chainspell
Convert
Saboteur
Refresh
Haste
Single Target Cures
Up to Tier IV Single Target Nukes (Incomplete at present, obviously)
9 Single Target Debuffs of varying tiers (Dia, Bio, Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle, Sleep) and Diaga

Melee Traits and Abilities:
B Sword (EX restricted) and Dagger skill (No DE or SB)
Shield Mastery
Composure
Enspells

It's a big freakin "duh!" that the job has leaned toward the mage-y aspects. 2 of the melee "perks" didn't even exist until recently, and we all know how laughable Shield Mastery actually is as a melee buff as a job who will probably never have hate for long durations if meleeing against other competent players. I can't even bring myself to lump the T2 Enspells into things with their current broken state, either. We've all been there, done that, about how RDM's fallen off the face of the earth when it comes to daggers despite the peculiar degree of native access to most of its WS.

In its best TP gear, the job faces an ACC and ATK deficiency compared to others on top of its native shortcomings. There's no DA, TA, STP, ACC Bonus, ATK Bonus, Crit Rate Boosts, Counters, Berserk, Meditate, Samba, or whatever else that collectively gives other jobs their edge before even accounting their sub. Simply casting is very much detrimental to the concept of melee, and compared to BLU, RDM's speed and MP efficiency is rather lacking here. Simply telling people to migrate to BLU is not a fix for RDM, nor does it really address the looming issue of a 99 SCH/RDM basically being everything a RDM is today, but with T5 nukes and whatever other goodies SE gives them from 91-99.

Now, to placate balance whores, I'm actually okay with RDM lacking melee traits. However, this compromise is only okay if they get spells to emulate the effects. Would a self-cast 3m 10% ATK boost break the game? That'd be around 40 ATK outside of Abyssea. How about a DA% spell that scales based on your Enhancing Magic? We otherwise have to sub WAR while BLU has no such limitation as our fellow melee mages. Plus it'd be nice to move on past Joyeuse. There have been plenty of other ideas in the past, but the key lies into basically integrating RDM's future martial prowess into self-MP expenditures so it CAN'T be superman for long durations.

As is, there are various little annoying things that RDMs have wanted for years, but later showed up on other jobs. Diffusion/Accession was an AoE buff option that could've greatly increased our potential swing time, but instead went to BLU and SCH. Chain Affinity allowed for self-SCing, while now SCHs can pop a Stratagem to make a spell emulate a T1 WS. Damn near all of the freakin' DNC steps and flourishes would've made nice quick MP-lite abilities to throw down to both debuff and enhance, but frick all if you find a DNC that actually cares about that and just wants to herpderp Haste Samba and Saber Dance into eternity. It's almost like every good idea RDMs have clamored for have actually hit the game, just not the RDM's benefit. It's tiring. It's frustrating. It's bad enough SE gives us the trollface.jpg, but hell if I'll sit back and let fellow players perpetuate the WHM-wannabe role or prattle on about how we're just fine in everything, but somehow overpowered.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Think you mean Blm Sch and Smn, Brd still has better WS gear than we do, and is on magian trials for dagger so access to both of the best daggers in the game (although Rudra's is quite weak if it doesn't crit iirc). Yeah it's probably that bad unless you have CDC.