Phoenix and Bahamut Summons

[Alhanelem]

It's hard to have a good attitude towards you when I know better.

Your attitude is bad in general, I see it in your interactions with everyone, not just me. If you were less of a jerk all the dang time, everyone here would be able to take you more seriously.

No one asked you to care about anyone or anything. But you don't display even a basic level of decency in your interactions with others. Eventually you will come to realize that not being an arse has benefits.

Yeah, this is the internet, and there are little to no reprecussions for your actions. But just because you CAN be an arse, doesn't mean you HAVE to be. You were a jerk to me for misremembering stuff from 15+ years ago. You're being a jerk now and you've been a jerk in every interaction I've ever had. But it's not just me, I've seen you do it to others. Why should anyone take you seriously when you don't give a (something something) yourself? And that's not my words, you said it yourself that you don't care: Again, why should we then?

The biggest problem is your ego. Opinions are not facts, not even yours. You're really full of yourself to declare that you are simply right and everyone else is wrong. You're going down the exact same path that made many people here resent me, and frankly you're better at it than I ever was- that server merge thread must be the first time I ever got more likes than the OP of any thread.

People gave me feedback in a thread of my own creation that dunking on people's opinions without giving them any due consideration was a huge factor in their resentment and I'm trying to correct that, because I *do* care what people think and would frankly rather be friends with people if possible.

[Jordache]

Your attitude is bad in general, I see it in your interactions with everyone, not just me. If you were less of a jerk all the dang time, everyone here would be able to take you more seriously.

No one asked you to care about anyone or anything. But you don't display even a basic level of decency in your interactions with others. Eventually you will come to realize that not being an arse has benefits.

And you did the same thing that I said you were going to do in the previous post, like you walked off a cliff of attempted manipulation.

Yeah, this is the internet, and there are little to no repercussions for your actions. But just because you CAN be an arse, doesn't mean you HAVE to be. You were a jerk to me for misremembering stuff from 15+ years ago. You're being a jerk now and you've been a jerk in every interaction I've ever had. But it's not just me, I've seen you do it to others. Why should anyone take you seriously when you don't give a (something something) yourself? And that's not my words, you said it yourself that you don't care: Again, why should we then?

The biggest problem is your ego. Opinions are not facts, not even yours. You're really full of yourself to declare that you are simply right and everyone else is wrong. You're going down the exact same path that made many people here resent me, and frankly you're better at it than I ever was- that server merge thread must be the first time I ever got more likes than the OP of any thread.

People gave me feedback in a thread of my own creation that dunking on people's opinions without giving them any due consideration was a huge factor in their resentment and I'm trying to correct that, because I *do* care what people think and would frankly rather be friends with people if possible.

You value likes? Holy: you're really trapped. Also: I don't care about stranger's resentments either. So why do you think online anonymous social reprimands mean or are valued by me? Your narratives and attempts to control them are garbage. It's the same loser sob story every single time because you can't cross reference data and information to provide something valuable at time of interaction.

You're drowning in social conflicts requirements and confusion when you're missing the source of all of the problems in their entirety prima faci.

Being friends with people doesn't make you right, or get your things from a gigantic information repository, which leave you poor because you can't get stuff done right or correctly or fast enough to even function. Then you get all uterine when you ignore the information provided: It happens every single time. It's not ego when its actually witnessed skill and or talent, your lack of skilsl and or abilities are probably why you were resented in the first place and didn't like yourself.

Yeha but I'm the best jerk ever, and that's the attitude that you're not liking because despite being in an online world now you never learned to be yourself. I did. I like myself that's why you're getting wrecked.

I'm not going to "overcooked celery" to you just because you're all manipulative. And you are, you are manipulative. Every interaction has been an attempt at manipulation and the narrative and conversation so that you're liked and that is exactly why you're not liked.

People can see through that and they hate it. So they just breakthrough against you.

[Alhanelem]

I'm not going to "overcooked celery" to you just because you're all manipulative.

Manipulative?

Dude, you're insane. I'm the straightest talker here. I say what I mean and that's all there is to it. Who said being friends makes people right? Your post makes so little sense that it's hard to believe it was written by a human. You straight up literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Having rational arguments is not being manipulative. Either you agree with something or you don't. I may certainly attempt to convince someone of my point of view, but there's no "manipulation." I make the best case I can for my position as I would expect anyone else to do. You on the other hand, attack the person, which is an informal logical fallacy. You're spending all this time trying to break me down- the antithesis of any rational argument. You are not worth my time and that's that.

[Jordache]

I may certainly attempt to convince someone of my point of view, but there's no "manipulation."

See: and that's where you're dead wrong: you try to convince people of your view point instead of your collection of facts being the best for forward progression and value creation. We all know that each other's viewpoints are not our own, that's a de facto prima faci about stuff; however, it's about the bestest future possible without getting pulled into your viewpoint. The bestest future doesn't involve your viewpoints, because your viewpoints are from your past, and because your viewpoints are limited. This is about creating something better than exists because someone somewhere knows better than your atrocious viewpoints. The manipulation occurs when you try to get others to fall into the deleteriousness of your viewpoint at the expense of their own. It is in this mannerism that you fail to contribute anything of value until you've ruined everything and everyone is at your viewpoint's perspective: then and only then are you satisfied to begin allowing others to move forwards towards that bestest future fabulous.

You don't make the best for the position stupid, your position; you make the best for want you want: that's the key difference, that's the money maker, that's the magic, that's the everything. Meaning no one ever gets sucked into your horrid viewpoints ever again.

You are not worth my time and that's that.

Tut Tut. Congratulations! Wow, you're learning. My, you're denser than flotsam!

[Jordache]

It's about time we discussed Phoenix and Bahamut summons: how do they work? How big are they? What is the purpose of summoning them?

Phoenix: Regenerative Medicine!
Lv 99 Master Evoker Astral Flow summon: Rebirth Flame
Rebirth Flame: Regen V plus ARISE (where applicable) and gives Reraise IV effects (Maybe III) to all in AOE range.
Only available to Mastered Jobs (you have those three stars above your head).

Bahamut: Patent-Issued Industrial Power!
Lv 99 Astral Flow Summon: Mega Flare
Mega Flare: Catastrophic AOE damage like Zantetsuken, with a GEO-type lingering DOT halo effect within a specific radius.
Only available to MAX-level Master level jobs (we're not there yet).

I don't care what SE said 500 years ago. Get past COVID and cancer cures and get the job done.

I want to expand on this and amend the Phoenix summon to:

Rebirth Flame: AOE fire+light damage that casts Raise III on party members and leaves behind a GEO-type luopan that gives Regen/refresh/regain to all within AOE. All trust magic summons are consumed/dispelled upon use.

Or that is consumes trusts summons to cast O_o. No probably no, just thought it sounded cool, like there's a Phoenix burden or something. But maybe that's the way: Liek how tusts have more power the fewer there are in a PT, maybe this works like the more trusts summons you sacrifice the better the phoenix summon is:
1 trust: only AOE regen;
2 trusts: AOE regen, and refresh;
3 trusts: AOE regen, refresh, and regain;
4 trusts AOE regen, refresh, regain, and AOE fire + light dmg;
5 trusts: AOE regen, refresh, regain, fire + light dmg, and raise gets cast on all within the AOE and the caster gets RR effect and HP/MP retored.

[Alhanelem]

Overpowered and ridiculous, just like your over-the-top unhinged personal attacks. You're basically combining three already ultimate abilities into one.

Let's one up this with Chaos' Instant Win Button: lower all enemies in a 50' radius to 1 HP and give all allies invincible status.

[Jordache]

Overpowered and ridiculous, just like your over-the-top unhinged personal attacks. You're basically combining three already ultimate abilities into one.

Let's one up this with Chaos' Instant Win Button: lower all enemies in a 50' radius to 1 HP and give all allies invincible status.

Like you invented a gun that cures cancer. >.>

Instead of taking the time to stop and analyze what is written and critique and improve upon, or preferably, enthuse with (you kinda did, but ruined it without critical thinking being scarcastic), instead you: take a quote I quoted from myself and try to make the post about your victim hood.

[Zenion]

I want to expand on this and amend the Phoenix summon to:

Rebirth Flame: AOE fire+light damage that casts Raise III on party members and leaves behind a GEO-type luopan that gives Regen/refresh/regain to all within AOE. All trust magic summons are consumed/dispelled upon use.

Or that is consumes trusts summons to cast O_o. No probably no, just thought it sounded cool, like there's a Phoenix burden or something. But maybe that's the way: Liek how tusts have more power the fewer there are in a PT, maybe this works like the more trusts summons you sacrifice the better the phoenix summon is:
1 trust: only AOE regen;
2 trusts: AOE regen, and refresh;
3 trusts: AOE regen, refresh, and regain;
4 trusts AOE regen, refresh, regain, and AOE fire + light dmg;
5 trusts: AOE regen, refresh, regain, fire + light dmg, and raise gets cast on all within the AOE and the caster gets RR effect and HP/MP retored.

So you want Searing Light plus Inferno, a little Altana's Favor, and maybe Embrava just for fun, and you want it to be neutered if the user is playing with other people?

The consuming five trusts to add Raise effect is especially funny because that effect would literally never be usable: if the one party member you had needed a Raise, they'd already be incapacitated and unable to summon Phoenix at all.

You could maybe get away with doing it in two parts: Phoenix's Favor gives Regen/Refresh/Regain/Reraise IV, and you have access to an AoE attack, but you can only have Phoenix active while Astral Flow is active and using the attack consumes the rest of the Astral Flow timer.

Or maybe we can throw Summoner a bone for once and make this the one blood pact that targets alliance instead of party, and it applies an Arise or Reraise IV effect as appropriate to alliance members in range, but the user dies like they used Mijin Gakure (whether you should get a free reraise is debatable there, if you do it's basically just like Final Sting applying Weakness.)

As for Bahamut... I mean, the halo thing is basically just impossible, because FFXI doesn't like having two pets attached to one player at all, so you'd be trading all of your Summoner class features for one Geomancer one. Maybe do it the same way as my proposal for Phoenix, with a Bahamut's Favor effect which boosts, say, physical damage level, and your final Mega Flare gets its damage scaled up based on how long that effect has been active? Makes it a bit risk/reward, you want to hold off on pulling the trigger as long as possible for maximum effect, but you still need to give yourself a buffer in case your positioning is off or you get stunned. This would also strongly incentivize using the relic piece which enhances the duration of Astral Flow.

[Jordache]

Yeah something like that: It's intended as a trust post-Siren, so its like a fully-mastered SMN (three-stars) spell-only, and more like the trusts are going to be sacrificed to fuel Phoenix's flame or something, but I was more like in FF8: where you're dead and phoenix come and does dmg and raises your party. There's some COP-level cannon that phoenix is SUPER weak [dispersed?] because vana'diel is in decay so I'm not really expecting more than an odin/alex type of summon>move>release thing.

OR its a model with auto attack ai and a super stong avatar boon like a bird-shaped luopan.

See: phoenix is a huge model so I don't want it to be out for like logistical/lag/framerate reasons. I like the Odin/Alex type of smn, but it should be closer to Siren in execution/reality.

And no bones lol this is FFXI, nothing ever targets alliance :P

And your Mijin idea: I'm imagining the SMN to just like explode and die (w arrise on) as this GIANT bird erupts through its abdomen like one of those things from the Aliens movie.

I'm not attached to the idea but as an explanation/elaboration:
I was thinking for smn that phoenix becomes MORE useful the more trusts you have out in exchange for the trust's power, so you're trading 5 trusts for one ultimate SMN move to save yourself lol. I thought there was an exchange element in there to play with. I like a lot of parties are a mix of trusts/players and I think trusts are phoenix magic or something (probably wrong on that).

And for the bahamut thing: I'm thinking is more of an environmental effect, not a pet, like a lingering residue of the mega flare after-birth/math[?]. Like how nuclear stuff has a devastated environment or a forest fire is all charred earth. But ideas are ideas.

[Zenion]

Yeah something like that: It's intended as a trust post-Siren, so its like a fully-mastered SMN (three-stars) spell-only, and more like the trusts are going to be sacrificed to fuel Phoenix's flame or something, but I was more like in FF8: where you're dead and phoenix come and does dmg and raises your party. There's some COP-level cannon that phoenix is SUPER weak [dispersed?] because vana'diel is in decay so I'm not really expecting more than an odin/alex type of summon>move>release thing.

OR its a model with auto attack ai and a super stong avatar boon like a bird-shaped luopan.

See: phoenix is a huge model so I don't want it to be out for like logistical/lag/framerate reasons. I like the Odin/Alex type of smn, but it should be closer to Siren in execution/reality.

Fafnir was a huge model, but they managed to fill a map square with it. Now, whether the team that actually remains can do that or not, that's another question entirely, I'm not convinced they held on to any 3D modellers.

I'm not attached to the idea but as an explanation/elaboration:
I was thinking for smn that phoenix becomes MORE useful the more trusts you have out in exchange for the trust's power, so you're trading 5 trusts for one ultimate SMN move to save yourself lol. I thought there was an exchange element in there to play with. I like a lot of parties are a mix of trusts/players and I think trusts are phoenix magic or something (probably wrong on that).

Anything that erases trusts needs to be an instant win button for it to appeal to players, though. You'd be sacrificing a crucial role that your remaining party members aren't able to fill: your regen and regain won't replace the only tank in the party, or active healing. Maybe in an edge case where you're using nothing but buffing trusts, but it's still putting you at a large disadvantage if it doesn't get you out of whatever encounter you're in immediately. If you're in a position where you're relying on five trusts for a fight... forget about it, losing them and your pet at the same time would be certain death.

Also I don't think Phoenix was involved in trust magic, she was pretty busy with keeping Iroha in the game when that was making its big story appearance, not really a whole lot of room there.

(You know what Phoenix is involved with, though? Omen. Omen and Fickblix, if I remember correctly; it would be cool to see something happen with that. Maybe you do enough Omen, Incantrix has enough Phoenix magic from your breath to finally revive Fickblix (only not quite because Chaos fight says no happy endings) and there's enough left over to reconstitute Phoenix?)

And for the bahamut thing: I'm thinking is more of an environmental effect, not a pet, like a lingering residue of the mega flare after-birth/math[?]. Like how nuclear stuff has a devastated environment or a forest fire is all charred earth. But ideas are ideas.

So, the thing there is, how do you think that works, mechanically? I can only think of a couple of zones where effects are applied to locations, and that feels very much like something that had to be baked into that zone specifically. To be able to do an area effect that can just be arbitrarily dropped anywhere, there would need to be a source. Whatever that source is will need to be attached to whoever created it, in order to handle cleanup - as fun an idea as it is to have an effect that lasts after you zone out, that would have all sorts of disastrous potential given the overall fragility of FFXI's code; your effect needs to be automatically culled if you zone out or are defeated.

There's basically one system presently in place to handle that sort of thing: pets. It would take up the pet slot. I don't know why a luopan counts as a pet (besides making it easier to fit multiple jobs on one piece of gear) but it does; this would almost certainly have to be the same situation.

You could wave it off by saying Bahamut is just that much, that you need to take time to recharge before you can summon again, but I just can't see a way that you'd get a lingering area effect without it having to eat the pet slot, in the game as it's presently structured. I don't know what the FFXI source code looks like so I can only speculate, but I think this is probably also the reason we don't have beastmaster or puppetmaster trusts, and the summoner and geomancer ones barely leverage their job features. Trusts aren't quite pets, but they tie themselves to their owner in such a way that having them generate a pet would probably make that pet count as the player's one and only available pet? Which is... a weird problem, on the surface, but programming-wise I can see exactly how it could happen.

Getting a little off track now but TL;DR I don't think Bahamut could have a lingering after-effect without either a non-trivial change to the game's code base (creating a new pet class that doesn't count as your pet, similar to your adventuring fellow, or copying Reisenjima's darkness spheres to every zone and instance where Bahamut could potentially be used just in case) or blocking the summoner's summoning.