Make the Relic and Empyrean WSs Questable

[Denabond]

@Greatguardian
While you might not care to have the relic and emp WSs available on either weapon, I'd like the ability to use Relic WS with my emp, or vice versa. Yes there are useless Relic WSs, but that doesn't mean ppl shouldn't have access to them.

@Andylynn
Simply because I'd like to be able to use the WS w/o being forced to use a certain weapon?

@DrStrangelove
Relics will still have their Hidden damage multiplier, aftermath, Stat boost, and high dmg to make them stand out. And as long as the quest if sufficiently hard enough so that only a few ppl would even bother getting it, it wont hurt the relic weapons that badly. In retrospect, simply giving Relic/Mythic weapons the empyrean WS is rather unfair to the ppl who worked for Empyreans. One side cant take from the other w/o some kind of concession. While simply boosting the stats to Relic/Mythic or their respective WSs would also even things out, they could simply do that while making them available to everyone. Having a non Relic bow user doing 500-1k damage Namas arrows while the relic users can do 1.5-3k Namas arrows for example.

[DrStrangelove]

@DrStrangelove
Relics will still have their Hidden damage multiplier, aftermath, Stat boost, and high dmg to make them stand out. And as long as the quest if sufficiently hard enough so that only a few ppl would even bother getting it, it wont hurt the relic weapons that badly. In retrospect, simply giving Relic/Mythic weapons the empyrean WS is rather unfair to the ppl who worked for Empyreans. One side cant take from the other w/o some kind of concession. While simply boosting the stats to Relic/Mythic or their respective WSs would also even things out, they could simply do that while making them available to everyone. Having a non Relic bow user doing 500-1k damage Namas arrows while the relic users can do 1.5-3k Namas arrows for example.

I sorta miss your point. SE has already said they are going to increase the strength of relics and mythics relative to empyreans. There is no quid pro quo going on...no concessions that have to be made from both. I was mentioning ways to do that.

Giving unique and useful relic/mythic WS to everyone while not doing that with empyrean WS is just the OPPOSITE of what SE said they were going to do since it gives empyreans and others something while doing nothing for relics / mythics.

[Seriha]

I will never understand the rampant hostility towards players who get things done. I have an Empyrean Weapon, heck my trio is finishing its third weapon (after helping another friend get his Masamune), and then I'll be on my second Empyrean weapon. That's not because I dualboxed or weaseled people into helping me with shit. I just have friends. You know, friends. Those things that people seem to think are exclusive to casual players. I have friends who I've known for over half a decade, who I've been in multiple shells with, some of which I've gone out to lunch with, who are actually fairly good at FFXI.

That's pretty much all it takes to get multiple Empyreans. I don't need to pay them, or barter things with them, or con them into coming out. We took turns getting weapons because we're friends, not because we need to be under contract in order to work for someone else's gain. This is how it works for most people I know with Empyreans. I'm really tired of this dead-wrong perception of Endgame players. We are people too, we play video games too, we have friends too, and we don't need to bot, cheat, hack, lie, or steal to be good at FFXI.

Funny, I'm tired of the dead-wrong perception of those who haven't jumped through a particular set of hoops are bad players, lazy, have no friends, or generally undeserving of any kind of meaningful and timely character progression.

What, exactly, do you lose by people having the potential to basically take a step between Empyreans and the WoE weapons?

I don't see gil mysteriously vanishing from your account, items being dropped, or your own Empyreans set to crappy stats.

Personally, I value the time of my friends. Them helping me get an Empyrean doesn't help them when I'm not around. On the other hand, they can't always be around to help me. This situation goes in reverse. We all know some Empyreans are easier to get than others. We also know you're looking at 30+ kills each for the first 2 phases. Just generally averaging, you'd get an hour per KI collection and fight. Yes, I know Carabosse is much quicker, Glavoid or Chloris not so much. My play times vary due to my family. That of my friends largely varies due to shift work or the actual intensity of their job having spurts. Just looking at 60 hours of time where maybe 2 or 3 hour blocks are knocked off maybe 3 times a week if lucky, all of them devoting themselves just to me would require 20-30 weeks for one weapon. Hardly fast and hardly unreasonable for other players to experience similar as I place myself between casual and hardcore with my own play style.

Obviously, despite WoE's shortcomings, I know it would be more reasonable to chase. As much as I want the event fixed from its grief-tastic state, that's not my motivation in posting for this idea. I am loathe of content developed where those with far more time on their hands or (RL) resources to burn can step away with far greater advantages more readily and too often wave it in the faces of those who can't. I'm sure you'll just pipe up with that's how MMOs are, life isn't fair, or whatever other anti-apologetic BS, but if you haven't come up with an answer to my earlier question, I'll give it: Nothing.


Edit: And while my commentary has been focusing on Empyrean weapons, I'm also for access to the Relic WS. Yeah yeah, we know a lot of them suck or are useless without the aftermath, but this basically sits on the assumption that SE will never touch the WS beyond what they did for the actual relic holders.

Edit2: I'm also of the mindset that Abyssea will not be where the 99 game is at. Leveling? Sure. New HNMs and such? Not so much. Take away the atma and you take away a lot of oomph these WS get.

[DrStrangelove]

What, exactly, do you lose by people having the potential to basically take a step between Empyreans and the WoE weapons?

1) you lose the incentive to try: why work for something that will be given to everyone anyway
2) you lose value in the accomplishment: no one knows how much work everyone did so there is no recognition of accomplishment or effort
3) you lose value of uniqueness: everyone has one so it's no longer special
4) you lose the value of utility: since everyone can now do the same thing, the worth of your weapon or weapon skill is no longer at a premium

One can ask the question the same way in all walks of like using the same argument you used:

A) a college teacher gives everyone an A (no matter how hard each person worked)
B) a boss gives everyone the same raise or bonus
C) your employer gives everyone the same pension (no matter how many years each person worked)
D) the tournament director gives everyone a first place medal no matter how everyone performed

I'm sure students, workers and athletes all have lives. Some have more time to devote to studies or work or training. What does it matter if everyone gets the same grade, same raise, same pension or same trophy?

For every reason we DON'T do that, is the same reason we shouldn't do it here. We aren't handing out cupcakes to 5 year-olds whose feelings should be respected.

Unless you think students, bosses, companies and sports events should work that way, then you have your answer.

[Seriha]

I see, so Professional Gamerz onry. Got it.

Nah, let's run with a variant of your school reference through a grading scale.
A+: Empyreans and the ODD Aftermath.
B: Quested WS with a good weapon used over the WoE version.
C: WoE weapon with the WS not yet learned for B.
D and below: Those noobs we all hate, right?

The only time B ever chances bettering A+ and eliminating any and all incentive is if the subsequent trials for the Empyreans result in almost no actual sense of an upgrade. By default, we can expect more tacked onto the Damage rating and the currently listed stat boosts. There's nothing stopping SE from tweaking, say, Almace's delay down to 210 from 224 or giving CDC from it a partial MP return based on the damage done.

Just use your imagination. It's not a hopeless proposal. Perhaps to the joy of some, however, I don't actually see this idea coming to pass. I merely find the arguments against it too shallow and not warranting an immediate trip to the recycle bin. Should it happen, though, and done right? Everyone wins.

[Rambus]

I see, so Professional Gamerz onry. Got it.

Nah, let's run with your school analogy, though.
A+: Empyreans.
B: Quested WS with a good weapon used over the WoE version.
C: WoE weapon.
D and below: Those noobs we all hate, right?

The only time B ever chances bettering A+ and eliminating any and all incentive is if the subsequent trials for the Empyreans result in almost no actual sense of an upgrade. By default, we can expect more tacked onto the Damage rating and the currently listed stat boosts. There's nothing stopping SE from tweaking, say, Almace's delay down to 210 from 224 or giving CDC from it a partial MP return based on the damage done.

Just use your imagination. It's not a hopeless proposal.

No, not professional, gamerz? onry? ( i am not sure the purpose of stating this in such a way)

You do have to see his viewpoint though , there needs to be content for people with more time on thier hands while giving the tools for casual players to do well enough to do their part.

you do not need emp weapons to perform, you do not need relic or mythic weapons to perform, in fact players with common weapons have been out damaging, outdotting?, the best of the relics ( like a thf out damaging a relic gun in moon because they had tripple attack merits and such) for years. ( hint: different, proper gear macros is why that happens)

I also need to ask this, what do you hope to achieve in auguring like you are?

some ws like relic ws are exclusive to the weapon to show the accomplishment, the only people that need an extra ws are mythic weapons. I was using that abyssea drop weapon on my war when I was asked “is that a relic weapon?” after I did the ws. That made me think, relic ws and emp ws are better off exclusive.

There is a difference of someone playing the best they can with the gear they have ( like using your 1 or 2 magain trials on your blm or even all 8 HQ staffs) vs sitting there spamming spells in a dark staff.

[Karbuncle]

First I'd like to say, The chances of empyrean wS being quests are probably 0%. you have 2 Weapon choices to get them already, One of them Clearly designed to be the "Easier" choice to just have the WS.

Secondly, In terms of Relic weapons... I know this is kinda a curve-ball, But wouldn't the Relic weapon itself be more of an accomplishment than the Sh*tty mostly useless Relic Weaponskills?

Not only would a random quested WS not get the Aftermath, It wouldn't get the DMG boost the Relic Weapons give Relic WS's on the Level 90+ Relics. (yes, Relic Ws's got a (I think it was 25%?) Boost on the 90 Weapons, Still shit mostly though).

So the Relic WS's would still be junk. Which begs the question why make them Questable, But at the same time, The anger from Relic owners over the thought of someone suggesting a Quest for them is unbelievable. They are all mostly terrible, and the True Reward form Relic Weapons is the Weapon itself, some cases, the Aftermath, not the Weaponskill. (Maybe in terms of Bow/Gun the WS, and Mercy Stroke...? Catasrophe has been about the Aftermath for the most part.)

I wouldn't mind either way, But as it stands, There are ways to use Relic Weaponskills outside of Relic Weapons (The fake-Relics in abyssea), theres ways to use empyrean weapons outside of Empyrean Weapon (WoE Gimpyreans), and theres ways to use Mythic Weaponskills outside of Mythic Weapons (The Mythic WS Quest).

SE clearly decided they wanted more than 1 way to use the above WS, and each one was given its own unique way to obtain it with less effort than the "Real" Relic/Etc. I don't see Relic/Empr being "Questable" on the same level as Mythics ever.

However, I would not be against the idea, I just see it being very unlikely.

And that theres way too much Anger from both sides over some arguably Terrible Weaponskills.

[Andylynn]

@Andylynn
Simply because I'd like to be able to use the WS w/o being forced to use a certain weapon?

and again, i ask, why? if you have to get some of the best weapons in the game to use them, whyon earth would you want to use a different weapon?

[Rambus]

First I'd like to say, The chances of empyrean wS being quests are probably 0%. you have 2 Weapon choices to get them already, One of them Clearly designed to be the "Easier" choice to just have the WS.

Secondly, In terms of Relic weapons... I know this is kinda a curve-ball, But wouldn't the Relic weapon itself be more of an accomplishment than the Sh*tty mostly useless Relic Weaponskills?

Not only would a random quested WS not get the Aftermath, It wouldn't get the DMG boost the Relic Weapons give Relic WS's on the Level 90+ Relics. (yes, Relic Ws's got a (I think it was 25%?) Boost on the 90 Weapons, Still shit mostly though).

So the Relic WS's would still be junk. Which begs the question why make them Questable, But at the same time, The anger from Relic owners over the thought of someone suggesting a Quest for them is unbelievable. They are all mostly terrible, and the True Reward form Relic Weapons is the Weapon itself, some cases, the Aftermath, not the Weaponskill. (Maybe in terms of Bow/Gun the WS, and Mercy Stroke...? Catasrophe has been about the Aftermath for the most part.)

I wouldn't mind either way, But as it stands, There are ways to use Relic Weaponskills outside of Relic Weapons (The fake-Relics in abyssea), theres ways to use empyrean weapons outside of Empyrean Weapon (WoE Gimpyreans), and theres ways to use Mythic Weaponskills outside of Mythic Weapons (The Mythic WS Quest).

SE clearly decided they wanted more than 1 way to use the above WS, and each one was given its own unique way to obtain it with less effort than the "Real" Relic/Etc. I don't see Relic/Empr being "Questable" on the same level as Mythics ever.

However, I would not be against the idea, I just see it being very unlikely.

And that theres way too much Anger from both sides over some arguably Terrible Weaponskills.

I see you sounding like me in trying to take both sides, one hand you got relic weapons and keeping the relic ws on that weapon for relfection, then the other hand you have the ws is so bad without the relic weapon why care?

for an accomplishment means others knowing you did it right? What are you achieving if no one gives recognition? I did not say anything but the other night I saw someone say "hey xxx neat scythe" (it was the shinru scythe twlight scythe?) and yet no one points out the next person having an emp bow doing 2-3k damage ws or even pointing out mine.

In other words I feel it makes the weapon's reflection less of an accomplishment if everyone can use ws x from high end weapon y.

back in the day you see someone using one of those ws it was like omg he has a relic now people think those abyssea weapons could be relics......

I do understand you can rebuttal me and saying you, yourself know what you accomplish or don't expect people to comment on your gear/ weapons. I do not want to sound elitist or anything in saying I expect parse but at the same time I find it strange that people can mistake the relic ws abyssea weapons for being a relic just because it has the ws.

The only difference questing for relic ws to be used on any weapon like mythic are is the social value is my only point. Basically if anyone can use a relic ws, its not easy for the average person to release oh that’s a relic weapon ( point back to my GA abyssea weapon example)

I would look at it like this, what is gained for making relic ws appear for everyone? Really nothing unless you want a different sc starter. ( like for my GA if i get the opportunity of being lucky I would ranging rush> raging rush> relic ws for light. That holds little tatical vaule since you have other ways of making light ( can just KJ someone). the mythic ws did brige a lot of jobs in being more sc friendly as is, like drk getting a fusion on scythe. then you have emps on top of it. I still think it is a shame now that mythics got stuck on level 1/ level 2 ( some level 2/ level 2) when emps have level 2, level 3

So my basic question is this for people that really want this. Why should SE make such a quest vs worring about other matters that need more fixing? ( like mythic, relic weapons vs emp weapons, AH slots, fellow NPC issues, other bug fixes and so on)

[Kazen]

It sounds like you need to suck it up Seriha and either work towards an emp weapon (slowly) or not do it at all. The emp group I'm in consists of 5 people and in 1 1/2 months we've completed Gaxe(90), Dagger(85), H2h(85), Katana(85), Gkt(85) and the dagger/h2h are about halfway done to 90 each because we're doing both at the same time. I'm sure you'll be thinking our playtime must be enormous, however, we only work on weapons for at most 3 hours a night.