[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

Oh but they do make a big fuss. You are proof of that because the last thing you are being is silent and secret.

Not to mention as I pointed out the extra time they spend shouting constantly for these specific set ups actually makes them less efficient in terms of time anyway. So it's hardly a separate issue - it just proves how ridiculous this whole thing is and doesn't even make sense according to their own logic.

A lot of the FFXI player doesn't even post on this forum lol(and yet they only invite SAMs). I'm not sure how I can represent everyone else in the community.

Your opinion about spending extra time to /shout for specific setup IS a separate issue. Most ppl who /shout for specific setup in this game is not because they want max efficiency, but because 1) They're too afraid to lose, so they refuse to use alternative setup 2) The job they /shout for is more PUG friendly than other jobs, and easier/faster to get.

Right not we're not talking about any of the above issues, we're talking about the job balance.

[Afania]

I'm pretty sure they knew what they are doing too. They just don't obsess over damage in the same way some of the players on this game does

It's just not a big deal. I do content regularly with Samurais and without them. People who act like there is such a massive imbalance that no job but samurai deserves a party invite are exaggerating to the point they really aren't worth paying attention to. So I don't blame the developers for ignoring them. I would too. And if they threatened to leave the game over it - I would show them where the door was.

This would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measured in terms of damage per second. I'm tired of it. They are a plague on MMORPGs as far as I'm concerned.

Please show other ppl who want a more balanced FFXI a door to leave so the entire server only has Dale and his friends, thanks.

You know, if the entire server only has Dale and his friend left, it'd be ideal MMORPG in Dale's mind.

[Dale]

A lot of the FFXI player doesn't even post on this forum lol(and yet they only invite SAMs). I'm not sure how I can represent everyone else in the community.

Your opinion about spending extra time to /shout for specific setup IS a separate issue. Most ppl who /shout for specific setup in this game is actually not because they want max efficiency, but because 1) They're too afraid to lose, so they refuse to use alternative setup 2) The job they /shout for is more PUG friendly than other jobs, and easier/faster to get.

Right not we're not talking about any of the above issues, we're talking about job balance.

No it's really not a separate issue. You want to make it one because it highlights how absurd this whole efficiency argument is.

I want to be more efficicent so I'm going to spend longer in Jueno shouting for very specific set ups when I could have probably not been so picky and got the battlefield over with in half the time. It's just stupid.

As far as job balance - Samurais are suppose to have high burst damage. Skill chains are what they do. Of course if you engineer a fight to be as quick and efficient as possible they are going to stand out and out-perform other jobs in terms of damage. That is just common sense and taking advantage of a job's strength.

There is nothing wrong with that nor does it mean there is some huge job imbalance in this game. You have to consider more than just damage when comparing different jobs. You think that's all that matters but it's not. Jobs on this game were never meant to be nor should they be balanced just in terms of damage.

[Dale]

Please show other ppl who want a more balanced FFXI a door to leave so the entire server only has Dale and his friends, thanks.

You know, if the entire server only has Dale and his friend left, it'd be ideal MMORPG in Dale's mind.

You are mischaracterizing what I said. And all anyone has to do is read what you actually bolded in my quote to see that.

I said this would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measure in terms of damage per second.

I never said players who want a more balanced game.

When you have to rewrite what I actually said to make your argument, that means two things: 1: you aren't interesting in an honest debate and 2: your argument is weak otherwise you wouldn't have to change what I said to begin with and my actual words would have been enough.

So I stand by what I actually said.

[Afania]

No it's really not a separate issue. You want to make it one because it highlights how absurd this whole efficiency argument is.

I want to be more efficicent so I'm going to spend longer in Jueno shouting for very specific set ups when I could have probably not been so picky and got the battlefield over with in half the time. It's just stupid.

You weren't reading my previous posts, please read again. I just said when ppl spend 2hr /shouting for a specific setup, it wasn't because they want max efficiency, and they often weren't /shouting for a dmg dealing job.

Personally, I've yet to see a pt shout for a SAM for 1hr while denying every other DD job ever since SoA introduced.

As far as job balance - Samurais are suppose to have high burst damage. Skill chains are what they do. Of course if you engineer a fight to be as quick and efficient as possible they are going to stand out and out-perform other jobs in terms of damage. That is just common sense and taking advantage of a job's strength.

Ok now you're at least talking more about the balance issue instead of "I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter", baby steps I suppose?

If you read my previous posts, I agreed that not every job should be able to do as much burst dmg as SAM.

The point is that there are other burst dmg/zerg jobs like WAR and DRK also do WAY LESS dmg than SAM. In fact, atm if your pt has 2 DD, such as a DRK and a SAM, a SAM soloing 1 single NM are very likely ended up doing more dmg than both SAM and DRK killing the NM together due to SC mechanics and how TP overflow hurts your dmg.

If this isn't design flaw, idk what is.

Again, role playing is irrelevant in this discussion, so does enmity cap. We're talking about "A job soloing does more dmg than A and B job DD together, please find a solution to this". And your only reply was "Just ignore the dmg and have fun", lol.

[Afania]

You are mischaracterizing what I said. And all anyone has to do is read what you actually bolded in my quote to see that.

I said this would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measure in terms of damage per second.

I never said players who want a more balanced game.

When you have to rewrite what I actually said to make your argument, that means two things: 1: you aren't interesting in an honest debate and 2: your argument is weak otherwise you wouldn't have to change what I said to begin with and my actual words would have been enough.

So I stand by what I actually said.

No one is measuring other ppl's worth by their dmg. Are you trying to imply that I take this job balance/game design issue to personal lv?

I AM interested in a honest debate about job and game design discussions. However after 30 pages all you're talking about is your personal preference and opinion about fun, I've yet to see a number and game mechanic discussion coming out from you.

I didn't rewrite what you actually said, I just copy and pasted what you said, this is the msg you're sending out after 30 pages of discussion.....we're not supposed to care about dmg because that somehow fits Dale's belief about MMORPG.

[Dale]

Ok now you're at least talking more about the balance issue instead of "I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter", baby steps I suppose?

If you read my previous posts, I agreed that not every job should be able to do as much burst dmg as SAM.

The point is that there are other burst dmg/zerg jobs like WAR and DRK also do WAY LESS dmg than SAM. In fact, atm if your pt has 2 DD, such as a DRK and a SAM, a SAM soloing 1 single NM are very likely ended up doing more dmg than both SAM and DRK killing the NM together due to SC mechanics and how TP overflow hurts your dmg.

If this isn't design flaw, idk what is.

Again, role playing is irrelevant in this discussion, so does enmity cap. We're talking about "A job soloing does more dmg than A and B job DD together, please find a solution to this". And your only reply was "Just ignore the dmg and have fun", lol.

I really wish you wouldn't put things I never said into quotes as if I had.

"I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter"

I never said this. I said damage should not be the only thing that matters Yes - damage matters. But it's not the only thing that does.

And I would have been happy to just concentrate on balance issues. You were the one who dragged me back into a discussion about the player mentality issue by involving yourself in a discussion I was having with another poster. So you can't blame me for that and there was no need for you take any kind of steps at all, baby or otherwise.

But to address your actual point - yes, Samurais do more damage than other jobs. I've already said that. This is especially true in shorter fights where their burst damage is going to stand out. The difference in me and you is you see that as being blatantly over-powered and an example of some huge job imbalance and I don't.

I believe other factors such as... yes, enmity/defense/utility and other options the job may have at its disposal must be considered before you can claim a job is imbalanced. You want to limit the context to just damage - but I'm not going to do that.

But again: if the point of your post is only to say Samurais are capable of doing more damage than other jobs, then yes: I agree with you. You can see this as some huge problem if you want. But I don't. We can simply agree to disagree about that.

[Dale]

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No one is measuring other ppl's worth by their dmg. Are you trying to imply that I take this job balance/game design issue to personal lv?

I AM interested in a honest debate about job and game design discussions. However after 30 pages all you're talking about is your personal preference and opinion about fun, I've yet to see a number and game mechanic discussion coming out from you.

I didn't rewrite what you actually said, I just copy and pasted what you said, this is the msg you're sending out after 30 pages of discussion.....we're not supposed to care about dmg because that somehow fits Dale's belief about MMORPG.

Oh but they are. When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing. As far as what you do on a personal level I don't know and don't need to know

And no, you aren't interested in honest debate. Otherwise you would stop exaggerating and re-writing the things I actually say.

And you are the last person who has a right to complain about my posts. You go out of your way to keep stirring up debate with me when I have tried to end it already on several occasions. Once again you are trying to play the victim when you were the one actually starting it.

[Afania]

Oh but they are. When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing. As far as what you do on a personal level I don't know and don't need to know

So you complained that I put words in your mouth but you do the same? Refuse to group with another player has nothing to do with measuring that person's worth. I don't view an individual "worthless" if they play BST. Sometimes I'd invite them, sometimes I don't. If I choose not to, it's often because of other factors(and that involves 5 other person in the pt and how they have fun), that has nothing to do with how I view that person.

What I meant by "taking it to personal lv" is, you used the word "measure everyone's worth" instead of "measure every job's worth".

I really wish you wouldn't put things I never said into quotes as if I had.

"I want FFXI to become an ideal MMORPG where dmg doesn't matter"

I never said this. I said damage should not be the only thing that matters Yes - damage matters. But it's not the only thing that does.

I've never say anything about dmg being the only thing that matters either, it is you who continue to make it sound like that players in FFXI are full of super obsessive SAM only elitists with 0 grey area nor compromise.

If anything this isn't black and white, everyone also has a different threshold toward this issue. Not everyone is extremely super obsessive about dmg that they must have max output, at least I don't....or else I'd play SAM instead of BLU. That doesn't mean I can turn a blind eye and pretend I'm having fun if I see someone purposely make certain decisions without respecting 5 other pt member's opinion about fun. And that doesn't mean I won't try my best to do as much dmg as possible when I play BLU either.

Everyone has different goals when they do event, some wants to play their job in a certain way, or try a different setup, some wants to grind as much plasm per hour. If you want to play a job in a certain way, just pt with like minded player, and vice versa. And it is leader's responsibility to make sure everyone has similar goals and able to accept each other's goals in a team.

If you want to role play, you can't force someone else aiming for max plasm/hr to pt with you. You won't have fun with them pushing you for faster kill, and they won't have fun with someone slowing them down. In the end both sides won't have fun, you can't change that.

Thus, exclude others is completely legit. It's not because I look down toward someone so I choose to exclude them, I do that because the team and that person has different goals, and a team must have same goals to move forward....and have fun together.

[Dale]

So you complained that I put words in your mouth but you do the same? Refuse to group with another player has nothing to do with measuring that person's worth. I don't view an individual "worthless" if they play BST. Sometimes I'd invite them, sometimes I don't. If I choose not to, it's often because of other factors(and that involves 5 other person in the pt and how they have fun), that has nothing to do with how I view that person.

What I meant by "taking it to personal lv" is, you used the word "measure everyone's worth" instead of "measure every job's worth".
.

Except that I didn't put any words in your mouth. Here is what I said:

When some one refuses to group with another based solely on the fact they cannot do as much damage as a Samurai for example: that is exactly what they are doing


I never said you did it. I said when some one. I did that on purpose to avoid this response too. But seems I still got it.

So once again you are trying to change what I said to make it sound like I was attacking you when I wasn't. It would help if you would just read what I actually say instead of allowing it to incite different implications.