[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

So I guess you decided not to stop the discussion.

I never said it was a crime to pick you play with. But refusing to group with others just because they do not offer max-efficiency in terms of damage is harmful to the game. Why? Because it leads to exactly the situation we have here - where so many different jobs get excluded because of people like you go out of the way to find insignificant reasons to try and shut them out of content. It's the same type of elitism I have seen on countless other MMORPGs and it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for bringing the genre down and ruining much of the role playing elements that make games like this interesting to begin with. So I'm not exaggerating the negative effect this has in the least.

Sorry to continue this discussion - -, but as a long time MMORPG player, I still don't agree with the bolded part.

Players in MMORPG/FFXI exclude certain jobs and aim for efficiency because those games are grind based games, when a game is designed to grind for hundreds and hundreds of hours, role playing isn't gonna work. Unless this game has a dedicated role playing server it's not happening.

If you want to true role playing experience, I suppose you should play sand box MMO instead of theme park like this....you know, games that designed to be more open ended and explore different possibilities, instead of games with tons of points/gold/gears to grind. I think some MMORPG titles also has dedicated servers for none competitive gameplay.

Again, this is my original point: It is not the player's fault that MMORPG become like this, it's game design direction's fault. The game design aimed toward certain group of players that enjoys a more competitive gameplay instead of role playing. When the game content is designed to offer you points/gears/gold and the entire game has nothing else except content that offers points/gears/gold, this is how it'd end up. This game simply doesn't reward role playing element, it is not a sandbox MMORPG, and this game doesn't have a role playing server. You're definitely playing the wrong genre if role playing is what you want.

If you seriously want to role play in FFXI, maybe ask SE to build a role playing server with role playing content. Blaming players for not accepting role playing is pointless. Some players wants to compete/push harder, just let them be.

[Dale]

Sorry to continue this discussion - -, but as a long time MMORPG player, I still don't agree with the bolded part.

Players in MMORPG/FFXI exclude certain job and aim for efficiency because those games are grind based game, when the game is designed to grind for hundreds and hundreds of hours, role playing isn't gonna work.

If you want to true role playing experience, I suppose you should play sand box MMO instead of theme park like this....you know, games that designed to be more open ended and explore different possibilities, instead of games with tons of points/gold/gears to grind.

Again, this is my original point: It is not the player's fault that MMORPG become like this, it's game design direction's fault. When the game content is designed to offer you points/gears/gold and the entire game has nothing else except content that offers points/gears/gold, this is how it'd end up. This game simply doesn't reward role playing element, it is not a sandbox MMORPG.

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault. This game does reward role playing - because you can be successful at this game while still playing the jobs you enjoy. You do not need max-efficiency to be successful. That's just a falsehood players like you aid in perpetuating.

And I'm not even going to touch the sandbox/thempark stuff. Last thing this thread needs is a semantic argument about that.

[Afania]

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault. This game does reward role playing - because you can be successful at this game while still playing the jobs you enjoy. You do not need max-efficiency to be successful. That's just a falsehood players like you perpetuate.

And I'm not even going to touch the sandbox/thempark stuff. Last thing this thread needs is a semantic argument about that.

Let a pt of BST win the content doesn't mean it "rewards" the player for playing BST, you have a really strange understanding toward game design theory.

Say a SAM can grind 400k plasm/hr, BST can grind 150k plasm/hr, from what I've seen, the game is rewarding SAM, not BST.

Now if the content drops a D ring or mythic everytime you clear the content with 5 BST in pt, then the content is rewarding BST.

If I'm a game designer and I want every player to invite a BST to pt, I'd just make BST get a 400% plasm bonus and 5 extra airlixir +2 every delve clear. I wouldn't let SAM grind more plasm/hr than BST while offering no extra bonus for a pt with BST.

This is just, basic game design theory 101. If you want the player to do A, give them goodies to do A. If they're not doing A, then you're not giving out enough goodies, it's as simple as that.

[detlef]

And I disagree with you. I believe it is the player's fault.

I don't know how you can say it's the players' fault. As players we're slaves to however the devs adjust the game. We do the job with the tools we have. If they make one of our tools stronger, it's not the players' fault if we choose to use the stronger tool whenever possible. The devs can't throw their hands up in the air and say "We never expected this! Why aren't you using weaker tools for the job? Also we have no control over it, we're just devs!"

If they make a strong WS like Fudo easily available, give it useful skillchain properties, and then buff skillchains, what do you think will happen? What happens when you make it very easy to self-skillchain? Is this really the players' fault?

[Ulth]

I don't know how you can say it's the players' fault. As players we're slaves to however the devs adjust the game. We do the job with the tools we have. If they make one of our tools stronger, it's not the players' fault if we choose to use the stronger tool whenever possible. The devs can't throw their hands up in the air and say "We never expected this! Why aren't you using weaker tools for the job? Also we have no control over it, we're just devs!"

If they make a strong WS like Fudo easily available, give it useful skillchain properties, and then buff skillchains, what do you think will happen? What happens when you make it very easy to self-skillchain? Is this really the players' fault?

I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. I'm also working under the assumption that they devs like to play sam.

[Dale]

Let a pt of BST win the content doesn't mean it "rewards" the player for playing BST, you have a really strange understanding toward game design theory.

Say a SAM can grind 400k plasm/hr, BST can grind 150k plasm/hr, from what I've seen, the game is rewarding SAM, not BST.

Now if the content drops a D ring or mythic everytime you clear the content with 5 BST in pt, then the content is rewarding BST.

If I'm a game designer and I want every player to invite a BST to pt, I'd just make BST get a 400% plasm bonus and 5 extra airlixir +2 every delve clear. I wouldn't let SAM grind more plasm/hr than BST while offering no extra bonus for a pt with BST.

This is just, basic game design theory 101. If you want the player to do A, give them goodies to do A. If they're not doing A, then you're not giving out enough goodies, it's as simple as that.

I would turn that around and say you have a really strange understanding towards game design theory. Because MMORPGs aren't about being as efficient as possible in a business environment and getting x amount of items as quickly as possible. They are about role playing as a job you enjoy and having fun in the process. Because believe it or not - some of us still play video games to have fun.

And that is how a video game actually rewards you anyway - by having fun. And if you aren't accomplishing that - you really are wasting your time no matter how quickly or efficient someone thinks they are being. And as I said in a previous post - if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves and really have no business playing a MMORPG to begin with.

Also the whole point of a grind as you constantly refer to is to increase the time players spend on the game and to add replay value anyway. So this whole idea you have that you are suppose to play as efficiently obsessively and quickly as possible to get a so-called grind over with as fast as possible is actually the complete opposite of what designs like this are actually intended to do anyway.

So as I said, if anyone has a very strange understanding of video game design - it's you. Because I strongly doubt SE designed their game so players would want to just play what ever job does the most damage so they can hurry up and get their game over with as fast as possible. And to reach that ridiculous conclusion simply because they have a job like samurai that does high burst damage and therefore of course out-performs other DD jobs if you engineer the fight to be as quick as possible is absolutely absurd.

[Dale]

I don't know how you can say it's the players' fault. As players we're slaves to however the devs adjust the game. We do the job with the tools we have. If they make one of our tools stronger, it's not the players' fault if we choose to use the stronger tool whenever possible. The devs can't throw their hands up in the air and say "We never expected this! Why aren't you using weaker tools for the job? Also we have no control over it, we're just devs!"

If they make a strong WS like Fudo easily available, give it useful skillchain properties, and then buff skillchains, what do you think will happen? What happens when you make it very easy to self-skillchain? Is this really the players' fault?

Because it is the players fault. I am playing the same game you are yet feel no need to always concentrate on recruiting samurais when possible. Other jobs get the job done just fine.

SE can't help if players want to obsess over little details as an excuse to exclude other jobs from content because it makes them feel extra special or elite. A few extra minutes to kill something... big deal. No one being even remotely reasonable would make such a fuss over that. Besides - they could have probably beaten the battlefield etc. in the extra amount of time it takes them shout constantly for such specific set ups anyway. So even in terms of their precious efficiency their argument doesn't even add up.

[Afania]

I would turn that around and say you have a really strange understanding towards game design theory. Because MMORPGs aren't about being as efficient as possible in a business environment and getting x amount of items as quickly as possible. They are about role playing as a job you enjoy and having fun. Because believe it or not - some of us still play video games to have fun.

And that is how a video game actually rewards you anyway - by having fun. And if you aren't accomplishing that - you really are wasting your time no matter how quickly or efficient someone thinks they are being. And as I said in a previous post - if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves.

Also the whole point of a grind as you constantly refer to is to increase the time players spend on the game and to add replay value anyway. So this whole idea you have that you are suppose to play as efficiently obsessively and quickly as possible to get a so-called grind over with as fast as possible is actually the complete opposite of what evens like this are designed to do anyway. So as I said, if anyone has a very strange understanding of video game design - it's you.

You just won't accept ppl have different opinion about what's fun and what's not isn't it?

And yes I believe some ppl still have fun with role playing, but not everyone. Your opinion about what's fun and what's not can't represent everyone else's opinion. What if I just don't enjoy playing with some ppl? What if I have 0 fun playing with them regardless the setup I use? Why can't I choose not to invite them so I enjoy the game more?

Because it is the players fault. I am playing the same game you are yet feel no need to always concentrate on recruiting samurais when possible. Other jobs get the job done just fine.

SE can't help if players want to obsess over little details as an excuse to exclude other jobs from content because it makes them feel extra special or elite. A few extra minutes to kill something... big deal. No one being even remotely reasonable would make such a fuss over that. Besides - they could have probably beaten the battlefield etc. in the extra amount of time it takes them shout constantly for such specific set ups anyway. So even in terms of their precious efficiency their argument doesn't even add up.

Your argument about extra time spent on making a perfect setup is a completely different issue. Also no one is making a big fuss over different DD jobs/slower kill, they just silently/secretly choose not to invite them so they have more fun playing the game.

[Dale]

I'm pretty sure they knew what they were doing. I'm also working under the assumption that they devs like to play sam.

I'm pretty sure they knew what they are doing too. They just don't obsess over damage in the same way some of the players on this game does

It's just not a big deal. I do content regularly with Samurais and without them. People who act like there is such a massive imbalance that no job but samurai deserves a party invite are exaggerating to the point they really aren't worth paying attention to. So I don't blame the developers for ignoring them. I would too. And if they threatened to leave the game over it - I would show them where the door was.

This would be a better game without these obsessive players who think everyone's worth must be measured in terms of damage per second. I'm tired of it. They are a plague on MMORPGs as far as I'm concerned.

[Dale]

Your argument about extra time spent on making a perfect setup is a completely different issue. Also no one is making a big fuss over different DD jobs/slower kill, they just silently/secretly choose not to invite them so they have more fun playing the game.

Oh but they do make a big fuss. You are proof of that because the last thing you are being is silent and secret.

Not to mention as I pointed out the extra time they spend shouting constantly for these specific set ups actually makes them less efficient in terms of time anyway. So it's hardly a separate issue - it just proves how ridiculous this whole thing is and doesn't even make sense according to their own logic.