Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[mattkoko]

Elitism is the attitude or behavior of someone who thinks they are better than you. That's is basically what it is.

So if someone comes up to me and starts mocking my job because they believe their job is superior then that's an example of elitism.

How about this, I will break down your example more. Because you seem to know what Elitism is to some degree, but there is more to it then just thinking you are better then someone.

Your first example was making rude or disrespectful comments toward someone based off what subjob they are using. This is not Elitism. You do not have to think you are superior to make rude and disrespectful comments toward a someone using a certain subjob. However, this could have been handled in a different way. In the rude sense, this person could be saying, "why would you use a shitty sub like, rdm when you are a drk. Are you a dumbass or something?" Instead this person could have said, "you know, /rdm does not really benefit drk. I suggest you use a sub like war or sam for drk." Or, "Is there a reason why you are using rdm as a sub?" So your example is more about being an asshole then being superior.

Now, trying to decide for someone what job is the best job or subjob and anyone who doesn't agree sucks and proceeds with mocking them is not Elitism either. Someone thinking their opinion is superior is not Elitism. It is their reasoning behind the opinion. Now if this person thinks their opinion is more superior because this person is a part of a more experiences ls and has been playing for 10 years as oppose to the person he/she is mocking who has only played for 5 years and was only ever in casual and social linkshells, then said person can be accused of elitism. Elitism is thinking you are superior because you are apart of a widely known and established endgame ls or simply just because you have been playing the game 5 years longer (I am sure there are more and better examples but trying to keep this short). The person you are describing in your example is guilty of being Arrogant. Not Elitism

[Dale]

How about this, I will break down your example more. Because you seem to know what Elitism is to some degree, but there is more to it then just thinking you are better then someone.

Your first example was making rude or disrespectful comments toward someone based off what subjob they are using. This is not Elitism. You do not have to think you are superior to make rude and disrespectful comments toward a someone using a certain subjob. However, this could have been handled in a different way. In the rude sense, this person could be saying, "why would you use a shitty sub like, rdm when you are a drk. Are you a dumbass or something?" Instead this person could have said, "you know, /rdm does not really benefit drk. I suggest you use a sub like war or sam for drk." Or, "Is there a reason why you are using rdm as a sub?" So your example is more about being an asshole then being superior.

Now, trying to decide for someone what job is the best job or subjob and anyone who doesn't agree sucks and proceeds with mocking them is not Elitism either. Someone thinking their opinion is superior is not Elitism. It is their reasoning behind the opinion. Now if this person thinks their opinion is more superior because this person is a part of a more experiences ls and has been playing for 10 years as oppose to the person he/she is mocking who has only played for 5 years and was only ever in casual and social linkshells, then said person can be accused of elitism. Elitism is thinking you are superior because you are apart of a widely known and established endgame ls or simply just because you have been playing the game 5 years longer (I am sure there are more and better examples but trying to keep this short). The person you are describing in your example is guilty of being Arrogant. Not Elitism

As I said, I believe you're definition of elitism is too limited and has much broader connotations than just belonging to an established endgame linkshell or having played the game for 5 years. It's just a word used to describe the attitude of people who feel they are superior to others for what ever reasons and how they treat others as less than their equal because of it. It can take place on a video game or outside of it.

But in the end this is just semantics. So it's probably best we just agree to disagree at this point. I don't really see either of us changing each other's mind at this point. So if you want to sum it up as just being arrogant I really don't have a problem with that. As long as we both recognize it's wrong and players shouldn't do it that's the important part. I don't really care what we call it.

[mattkoko]

As I said, I believe you're definition of elitism is far too limited and has much broader connotations than just belonging to an established endgame linkshell or having played the game for 5 years. It's just a word used to describe the attitude of people who feel they are superior to others for what ever reasons and how they treat others as less than their equal. It can take place on a video game or outside of it.

But in the end this is just semantics. So it's probably best we just agree to disagree at this point. I don't really see either of us changing each other's mind at this point. So if you want to sum it up as just being arrogant I really don't have a problem with that. As long as we both recognize it's wrong and players shouldn't do it.

Actually, I agree with your last post. Saying someone sucks because they are a part of a certain social group, has more money, etc is Elitism.

However, if I tell you right now I don't agree with you and just say you suck right now, it could be just because I don't like to be wrong. In this case, this is not elitism. I am just being too arrogant to admit I am wrong. It's just your original examples that I did not agree with. Some people think they are superior just because. some people don't have a reason and just don't like to admit their wrong. Some people are so used to a certain way of getting things done and will say someone else sucks depending on what job or subjob they bring. This person just may not know enough or have bad understanding of mechanics. It does not add up to elitism necessarily. This is not to say this person is right by any means though.

We can agree to disagree though. Either way, I am right because I am Elvaan and most likely taller which makes me better looking. Probably also means I have a bigger... Never mind. Okay that was somewhat of a joke, however, saying I was right because I am an elvaan and better looking is classic elitism lol.

I do agree whether it be arrogance or elitism, it is wrong. And I am also wrong in assuming you were talking about elites in general. Because I do know a bunch of players that could be considered elite, but are extremely helpful and respectful. They like getting things done efficiently and will give advice on certain jobs and subjobs with out being rude. I go back to what someone else said in this thread that a lot of people in here and in game who put being elite in a negative light. This is what I have a problem with.

[Comeatmebro]

Yes I know how you feel. It's everyone else's fault. Everyone else is incompetent except the LEET DD who doesn't know how to hold back or take any kind of precautions or responsibility for his own survival because he wants to parse as high as possible and use those numers to measure his epeen. That's the typical attitude, and why even hearing this word parse on FFXI makes me sick to my stomach.

But in the end, it's the elite that's on the ground dead blaming everyone else for his own mistakes while we finish up the battlefield with no problem. So you can blame who ever you wish in this example I gave, but I think the end result speaks for itself.

Also, that wasn't a hypothetical.

If I go SAM with my mules, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

If I go SAM with my linkshell members, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

I only do pickups if I'm extremely bored and I see a group's been shouting a while, I'm not the guy going around ruining groups. If I can't get a group of people I know for something, I'd rather use my mules and not have to deal with the unpredictability of shout groups. That said, if a pickup of the same setup can't keep me alive to the same caliber a good group could, then the only mistake I'd have made would be putting faith in a group that didn't deserve it. Perhaps hybrid gear would've been more beneficial in that state, but it's not me that's lagging behind. The so-called elites you're ready to bash may not be playing 'irresponsibly', they may be treating you the same as their 'elite' groups. You let them down as much as they let you down.

Whatever BC you 5manned once is just a single scenario, a single person, and a single setup. I've done every event in the game successfully, and I've never had a need to hold back on a DD. I rarely use DT gear. I think it's safe to say that you're blaming that person BECAUSE you view them as an elite. What else is a SAM supposed to do? If it's not a theoretical, what event was this where your SAM just plain dropped before anything could be done due to dpsing too hard?

[Glamdring]

I was mainly going by the definitions Camiie's had posted and in most of those definitions intelligence was listed in them. I think most here can agree that you can't fix stupid. Back in the day when dynamis LSes existed my group would have this Pld that would never get an xp buff. Sometimes they would be our only tank, his constant deleveling would make the group faceplam.

oh god do I understand that. I always ran Dynamis bard in the old days, my facepalm was always the same. I'm screaming for target control, some guy decides to show how awesome he is, attacks something and immediately dies and starts whining how the rest of us suck for not keeping him alive. meanwhile I and the leader simultaneously /tell eachother "i JUST slept that thing..." seriously, how "elite" can you be when you don't even know how to use an /assist macro after 6 freaking years of play?

[Glamdring]

matt, dale, let me make it easy for you, some elites use the term to talk about their play, those would be the one's praising. the one's complaining however are using the "elite" definition of "adj. an arrogant prick who believes they have an authority based on excellence that they have not in fact earned". both are equally valid definitions (look at the traditional roles of "nobility" to see it in a historical perspective). you need to agree on what definition you are using before you are on the same page.

[Dale]

If I go SAM with my mules, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

If I go SAM with my linkshell members, I don't need to hold back. I won't die. Spamming WS will clear the event fastest, resulting in the most loot.

I only do pickups if I'm extremely bored and I see a group's been shouting a while, I'm not the guy going around ruining groups. If I can't get a group of people I know for something, I'd rather use my mules and not have to deal with the unpredictability of shout groups. That said, if a pickup of the same setup can't keep me alive to the same caliber a good group could, then the only mistake I'd have made would be putting faith in a group that didn't deserve it. Perhaps hybrid gear would've been more beneficial in that state, but it's not me that's lagging behind. The so-called elites you're ready to bash may not be playing 'irresponsibly', they may be treating you the same as their 'elite' groups. You let them down as much as they let you down.

Whatever BC you 5manned once is just a single scenario, a single person, and a single setup. I've done every event in the game successfully, and I've never had a need to hold back on a DD. I rarely use DT gear. I think it's safe to say that you're blaming that person BECAUSE you view them as an elite. What else is a SAM supposed to do? If it's not a theoretical, what event was this where your SAM just plain dropped before anything could be done due to dpsing too hard?

A lot of misinformation here so I'll try to clear some of it up.

I didn't view the samurai in question as an elite. I wasn't impressed with either his play-style or attitude. It was him that viewed himself as an elite and sought to insult and mock everyone else in the group simply because they were not what he would consider an acceptable job. And this happened before the battleground even started. So that is why I am bashing him. Because he chose to bash others. If he had simply played bad I would not be bashing him. If he had simply thought he was an elite I would not be bashing him. So you are mischaracterizing me.

The fact he was horrible and died in the first few seconds of the fight just proved to everyone there - except to him of course - that his inflated ego wasn't back up by inflated skill.

As to your other points: I believe a truly skilled player is one who knows how to adapt to different group situations to achieve victory. If someone always plays the same exact way all the time just because they think it's the elite way to play - even if it gets them killed - then that is just dumb. At least in my opinion.

And to answer your last question: I forget exactly which but it was one of the battlefields for Rem Chapters. Maybe the one with ants... not sure. He just charged in and proceeded to chain weapon skills on them and as a result died. And died quickly.

He got impatient because someone was buffing or something as I recall. Apparently he was just too awesome for us to make him wait a few seconds because us puny beings wanted buffs for such an easy fight. An easy fight that kicked his you know what

[Dale]

matt, dale, let me make it easy for you, some elites use the term to talk about their play, those would be the one's praising. the one's complaining however are using the "elite" definition of "adj. an arrogant prick who believes they have an authority based on excellence that they have not in fact earned". both are equally valid definitions (look at the traditional roles of "nobility" to see it in a historical perspective). you need to agree on what definition you are using before you are on the same page.

I think where we got side-tracked is there is a difference in being elite and then elitism.

If you are truly a skilled player and believe yourself to be an elite then I got no real issues with that. But if you practice elitism as a result of that belief, and treat others as inferior creatures not worthy of your respect then I do have an issue with it.

So as long as someone doesn't let their own self-feeling of superiority affect negatively their attitude or behavior toward others I got no real problems with people who see themselves as elites.

[Dale]

Actually, I agree with your last post. Saying someone sucks because they are a part of a certain social group, has more money, etc is Elitism.

However, if I tell you right now I don't agree with you and just say you suck right now, it could be just because I don't like to be wrong. In this case, this is not elitism. I am just being too arrogant to admit I am wrong. It's just your original examples that I did not agree with. Some people think they are superior just because. some people don't have a reason and just don't like to admit their wrong. Some people are so used to a certain way of getting things done and will say someone else sucks depending on what job or subjob they bring. This person just may not know enough or have bad understanding of mechanics. It does not add up to elitism necessarily. This is not to say this person is right by any means though.

We can agree to disagree though. Either way, I am right because I am Elvaan and most likely taller which makes me better looking. Probably also means I have a bigger... Never mind. Okay that was somewhat of a joke, however, saying I was right because I am an elvaan and better looking is classic elitism lol.

I do agree whether it be arrogance or elitism, it is wrong. And I am also wrong in assuming you were talking about elites in general. Because I do know a bunch of players that could be considered elite, but are extremely helpful and respectful. They like getting things done efficiently and will give advice on certain jobs and subjobs with out being rude. I go back to what someone else said in this thread that a lot of people in here and in game who put being elite in a negative light. This is what I have a problem with.

I believe there to be a a very thin line between elitism and arrogance - if indeed there is one there at all. So if you are more comfortable with me calling it arrogance I'll be more than happy to accommodate you.

[Afania]

So that is why I am bashing him. Because he chose to bash others.

Have you realized that you're doing the exact same thing as ppl you disapproved of?