Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[kylani]

Benefits yourself?

Like here we have endgame gear being sold while in other MMORPGs we have similar things.

I imagine how a newbie might feel after getting 117 gear and realizing he has no chance of either joining an endgame ls and will have to amass 50mil gil at least to buy delve wins.

I know thats utopia but wouldn't it be nice if the game rewarded veterans for helping others with these things?

I wish new folks could experience the entire game, not just jump into endgame. I know Trusts help new players accomplish things that we didn't used to be able to, and I'm glad for it, but at the same time, there was nothing like doing the missions and quests with other people, everyone working together, failing until you get a strat down, and that wonderful feeling when you finally do succeed. I wish there was a way to help new folks experience the game like that.

I never have understood the point of hiring mercs to begin with. Why even play if you are just playing to hire mercs. Why pay to 'win' endgame when there is so much to enjoy if you take your time and explore and enjoy the content.

If anything, I wish other games were half as good at FFXI at providing such variety of great content.

[Dale]

I wish new folks could experience the entire game, not just jump into endgame. I know Trusts help new players accomplish things that we didn't used to be able to, and I'm glad for it, but at the same time, there was nothing like doing the missions and quests with other people, everyone working together, failing until you get a strat down, and that wonderful feeling when you finally do succeed. I wish there was a way to help new folks experience the game like that.

I never have understood the point of hiring mercs to begin with. Why even play if you are just playing to hire mercs. Why pay to 'win' endgame when there is so much to enjoy if you take your time and explore and enjoy the content.

If anything, I wish other games were half as good at FFXI at providing such variety of great content.

I sympathize. But sadly this new generation of gamers are too used to having things given to them. The old days of MMORPGs when players were dependent on one another to overcome obstacles are probably a thing of the past. And most modern titles treat partying as merely a mechanical function where strangers are just lumped together based on simplistic roles and strategies. It's a boring and very shallow system and I have no idea what these new gamers see in such games. I feel more like a cog in some wheel rather an individual role playing in a fantasy world with other players.

The trust idea was a good compromise I suppose. It allows players to solo while still experiencing a semblance of group-based tactics. But in the end, I really have to ask what is the point of playing an MMORPG if you want to solo most of the time? It kind of defeats the whole purpose of an MMORPG if you ask me.

I believe the original Final Fantasy XI did it right in this respect. Soloing was possible. But it was difficult and dangerous so grouping was always preferred. Luckily there is enough left over from the old system that keeps this game more group-oriented than the newer titles. Still I'm with you on this though, and still prefer it as it was in the elder days when Vanadiel felt like a dangerous wilderness you had to respect, rather one you could easily stomp across alone.

[kylani]

I sympathize. But sadly this new generation of gamers are too used to having things given to them. The old days of MMORPGs when players were dependent on one another to overcome obstacles are probably a thing of the past. And most modern titles treat partying as merely a mechanical function where strangers are just lumped together based on simplistic roles and strategies. It's a boring and very shallow system and I have no idea what these new gamers see in such games. I feel more like a cog in some wheel rather an individual role playing in a fantasy world with other players.

The trust idea was a good compromise I suppose. It allows players to solo while still experiencing a semblance of group-based tactics. But in the end, I really have to ask what is the point of playing an MMORPG if you want to solo most of the time? It kind of defeats the whole purpose of an MMORPG if you ask me.

I believe the original Final Fantasy XI did it right in this respect. Soloing was possible. But it was difficult and dangerous so grouping was always preferred. Luckily there is enough left over from the old system that keeps this game more group-oriented than the newer titles. Still I'm with you on this though, and still prefer it as it was in the elder days when Vanadiel felt like a dangerous wilderness you had to respect, rather one you could easily stomp across alone.

I'm actually in an odd camp where I loved the old days, but I don't want them back like they were. I like things as they are now. Sure there were great times, but there were bad too. I was lucky to be RDM when RDM was considered a must, but I had friends who loved DRG and MNK and RNG when it was hard for them to get in a party with those jobs. We leveled together when we could, but I worked so I was only on in the evenings and weekends. The folks I met were often students who played various times or from Japan or Taiwan. We had great fun, but getting together was often a pain. Fortunately, I met some friends with the same schedule in our LS so we formed a static to do COP and helped each other with missions as well as other LS members. There is absolutely nothing preventing that kind of play today except the player base doesn't choose to do it.

Most of my friends that left, left because it was so hard getting groups and getting things done. So I don't think trying to force folks to play together works. For some it may, and it may be the best experience ever, but in this day and age, people will leave the game if they can't get things done on their own. Who wants to play a game that you can't play on your own schedule? I don't think any game could make this work any better than FFXI did/does, and FFXI still lost people because they got frustrated. I don't know that any game designer can conquer this problem. The problem is really the player base. Absolutely nothing prevents people playing like they used to, except players don't want to do it.

I love grouping, but all of my friends have moved on. So what have I done since I came back this past month? I actually started leveling a new character with Trust and enjoying all this new stuff, and have been having a blast because the quests are still fun, and I'm enjoying being able to do things I couldn't do by myself back when I was a new player. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing it solo. There are still MMO elements that I like. This weekend, I answered a shout for a crafted item, teamed up with another player in Valkurm, did some BCNM/KNMs with a friend. I love this game, whether soloing or doing things with others. I'm enjoying, anything and everything I choose to do.

I don't think a game designer can make people want to play with/help others. If they set up a system where people got rewarded for helping, it would turn into some kind of farming thing. 'Hey, let me help you so I can get 'so and so'. I feel like people have to want to help because they want to help. I like to think, most people enjoy the good feeling you get from helping others. If anything, encouraging casual link shells would be the only thing I can think of that might help people meet and work together. I really miss the first LS I had where we did help each other or just talked in ls even when we were all doing our own thing.

[Ris]

Yea, without players selling most of these players would never have a shot at endgame at all.

I was thinking about new players when they reach the 117 gear. I'm always worried if FFXI can retain new players cause without them the game will die.

You've touched on what is really an important issue, but I don't think there's a (good) technical solution to it. In the end it's a social issue...

Usually when a game community becomes very conscious of its own mortality, that's when high end players start taking an interest in bringing in newbies. But... I think by the time FFXI would become small enough that that could actually happen, it will probably not be a profitable game for Square Enix anymore.

Even a large, successful game like FFXIV could benefit if there was a good (technical) solution to this problem. I've known some and heard of many others becoming less active and eventually quitting because they can't get past T5 or get a SCoB static... leaving them directionless, not necessarily because they lack 'skill' either. The game does well despite this but imagine what it could be if there was a way to solve this problem...

Making things solo friendly really isn't that great of an answer to this problem but when the vast majority of the playerbase just doesn't care... well, it's better than leaving things as is.

An alternative is to make "manpower" as important as character skills/gear/progression... EVE online does this, and it's why even a fresh newbie gets lots of attention from recruiters... but I think that would be hard to apply to a fantasy MMO that's more traditionally RPG-like.

Sorry for the wall of text! ^^;

[Dale]

I'm actually in an odd camp where I loved the old days, but I don't want them back like they were. I like things as they are now. Sure there were great times, but there were bad too. I was lucky to be RDM when RDM was considered a must, but I had friends who loved DRG and MNK and RNG when it was hard for them to get in a party with those jobs. We leveled together when we could, but I worked so I was only on in the evenings and weekends. The folks I met were often students who played various times or from Japan or Taiwan. We had great fun, but getting together was often a pain. Fortunately, I met some friends with the same schedule in our LS so we formed a static to do COP and helped each other with missions as well as other LS members. There is absolutely nothing preventing that kind of play today except the player base doesn't choose to do it.

Most of my friends that left, left because it was so hard getting groups and getting things done. So I don't think trying to force folks to play together works. For some it may, and it may be the best experience ever, but in this day and age, people will leave the game if they can't get things done on their own. Who wants to play a game that you can't play on your own schedule? I don't think any game could make this work any better than FFXI did/does, and FFXI still lost people because they got frustrated. I don't know that any game designer can conquer this problem. The problem is really the player base. Absolutely nothing prevents people playing like they used to, except players don't want to do it.

I love grouping, but all of my friends have moved on. So what have I done since I came back this past month? I actually started leveling a new character with Trust and enjoying all this new stuff, and have been having a blast because the quests are still fun, and I'm enjoying being able to do things I couldn't do by myself back when I was a new player. Just because it's an MMO doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing it solo. There are still MMO elements that I like. This weekend, I answered a shout for a crafted item, teamed up with another player in Valkurm, did some BCNM/KNMs with a friend. I love this game, whether soloing or doing things with others. I'm enjoying, anything and everything I choose to do.

I don't think a game designer can make people want to play with/help others. If they set up a system where people got rewarded for helping, it would turn into some kind of farming thing. 'Hey, let me help you so I can get 'so and so'. I feel like people have to want to help because they want to help. I like to think, most people enjoy the good feeling you get from helping others. If anything, encouraging casual link shells would be the only thing I can think of that might help people meet and work together. I really miss the first LS I had where we did help each other or just talked in ls even when we were all doing our own thing.

I'm going to have to defend old school FFXI here in that no one was forced to group in the old days. Soloing was possible and enjoyable in my opinion. I even soloed on Dark Knight so your friend could have done it if he had put in the effort. It was just a lot easier and less dangerous in groups. And I believe you need that incentive to group up else people won't' do it. Why bother putting a group together for something you can easily do yourself? That's not being anti-social or anything. It's just common sense really. And you have only to look at the multitude of newer MMORPGs to see this, because they are largely played as solo games as a result. And it's had its effect on this game as well, as I rarely see groups out in the open world now an days. It's usually just soloist running around with trusts.

I believe Final Fantasy XI 's original design failed not because soloing was difficult or that much of the content required groups, but because of their endgame. The NM camping was tedious and boring and that's why I left and all of my friends did. That and the economy was brutal and dominated by gold sellers. Luckily that style of NM camping has mostly been abandoned and the economy is in much better shape. But I do believe the original game had the right balance between solo and group play and I wish they would bring it back.

[Olor]

risk of failing is only as high as the players incompetence, you can find full guides for what needs to be done and none of it's very hard

sch sch | whm brd cor geo mnk mnk with nobody wearing anything but sparks gear and no accessories could 1/1 tojil if they took the time to read a strategy

Oh give me a break. Any sch that was good enough to stun in delve already has the clear. I did delve runs with people with 119 gear/relics etc that still failed - so to say full 117 party would clear all delves with NP, in a PUG ... is just silly.

Is it technically possible? Sure. Is it likely? No.

This topic is not about FFXI so Draylo and Afania stay on topic please or i will report you.

All topics in a FFXI general forum should be about FFXI.

[kylani]

I'm going to have to defend old school FFXI here in that no one was forced to group in the old days. Soloing was possible and enjoyable in my opinion. I even soloed on Dark Knight so your friend could have done it if he had put in the effort. It was just a lot easier and less dangerous in groups. And I believe you need that incentive to group up else people won't' do it. Why bother putting a group together for something you can easily do yourself? That's not being anti-social or anything. It's just common sense really. And you have only to look at the multitude of newer MMORPGs to see this, because they are largely played as solo games as a result. And it's had its effect on this game as well, as I rarely see groups out in the open world now an days. It's usually just soloist running around with trusts.

I believe Final Fantasy XI 's original design failed not because soloing was difficult or that much of the content required groups, but because of their endgame. The NM camping was tedious and boring and that's why I left and all of my friends did. That and the economy was brutal and dominated by gold sellers. Luckily that style of NM camping has mostly been abandoned and the economy is in much better shape. But I do believe the original game had the right balance between solo and group play and I wish they would bring it back.

Sorry if I implied my friends never soloed. We did a lot of variety, including soloing/duoing, and my DRG friend ended up with Maat's cap before he left. There really wasn't any content we couldn't do when we all got on, and we did a lot solo, duo, etc. But back then, there weren't other MMOs, and when you get on to play a game, and spend much of your time waiting/scheduling to play, it's not hard to see why folks would go to other games when they became available.

I'd give anything for my friends to give FFXI another try now, but they're not willing to give up their lives again, and it's hard to convince them otherwise. Today it's different. Back then, just to do limit breaks, you needed help. Our LS scheduled runs when folks needed help, but it's frustrating when you want to play all week, and need to wait till Saturday to get your LB done or hope you can get help if you shout, but the whole mechanic was frustrating in general. Doesn't mean we didn't do it, and that the accomplishment didn't mean more when you finally hit your goals. I'll never forget getting rank 10, Sky, finally beating the Promies and getting into Lufaise Meadows, etc, and am glad I went thru it, but I can't imagine doing it again. I think it's wonderful there are more options now, even if you don't get that same satisfaction.

Personally, I always enjoyed doing whatever I was doing, crafting, soloing (anything /bst was fun to me, and I liked getting exp while farming for my crafting). But people are different, and I think the changes that have been made over the years have been great. I sure hated dying in the old days, I'd lose more exp than I gained some days beasting, but the world had a scarier, more dire feel than today. No one cares about dying anymore. So while I like the changes, it doesn't mean there weren't trade offs. I really miss having to worry about what folks around you were doing, and loved being on watch for sleeping adds, etc, but most folks seemed to like not having to worry about trains from others ruining their exp party, etc. I feel for MMO designers. You can't please everyone. I've tried many games, but FFXI always brings me back.

[Dale]

Sorry if I implied my friends never soloed. We did a lot of variety, including soloing/duoing, and my DRG friend ended up with Maat's cap before he left. There really wasn't any content we couldn't do when we all got on, and we did a lot solo, duo, etc. But back then, there weren't other MMOs, and when you get on to play a game, and spend much of your time waiting/scheduling to play, it's not hard to see why folks would go to other games when they became available.

I'd give anything for my friends to give FFXI another try now, but they're not willing to give up their lives again, and it's hard to convince them otherwise. Today it's different. Back then, just to do limit breaks, you needed help. Our LS scheduled runs when folks needed help, but it's frustrating when you want to play all week, and need to wait till Saturday to get your LB done or hope you can get help if you shout, but the whole mechanic was frustrating in general. Doesn't mean we didn't do it, and that the accomplishment didn't mean more when you finally hit your goals. I'll never forget getting rank 10, Sky, finally beating the Promies and getting into Lufaise Meadows, etc, and am glad I went thru it, but I can't imagine doing it again. I think it's wonderful there are more options now, even if you don't get that same satisfaction.

Personally, I always enjoyed doing whatever I was doing, crafting, soloing (anything /bst was fun to me, and I liked getting exp while farming for my crafting). But people are different, and I think the changes that have been made over the years have been great. I sure hated dying in the old days, I'd lose more exp than I gained some days beasting, but the world had a scarier, more dire feel than today. No one cares about dying anymore. So while I like the changes, it doesn't mean there weren't trade offs. I really miss having to worry about what folks around you were doing, and loved being on watch for sleeping adds, etc, but most folks seemed to like not having to worry about trains from others ruining their exp party, etc. I feel for MMO designers. You can't please everyone. I've tried many games, but FFXI always brings me back.

Some of the changes are nice. I don't miss the massive experience penalty on death for example. But the problem when an MMORPG appeals to the players who want to be able to easily solo everything or at least most things is the game turns into a mostly solo RPG game with a chat window. And playing with others turns into more of an endgame option rather a core function of the game itself.

I understand your point about not being able to please everyone. But I think the real problem is that gamers who want to primarily solo flock to play multi-player games for some odd reason then complain when they actually have to play with others to progress. Because it should be expected in my opinion at least that on an MMORPG that you will need to group up with others to accomplish things. That should be common sense in my estimation. But instead they don't seem to accept this and demand the game be changed to suit their solo play style and that harms the game for people like me who primarily play multi-player games for the multi-player aspects. Because if I wanted to play a game designed for solo play I would simply go play a solo game.

I differ with you in one respect, and that is I could imagine myself beating the Promies and getting to Lufaise Meadows again. In fact I almost crave it, and feel MMORPGs are at their best when friends have to come together to overcome great challenges they couldn't do alone. Because I loved old school FFXI and it remains by far my best experience with any MMORPG.

As I pointed out to you in my earlier post, I don't believe it was the game's challenge and group-oriented content that causes its original design to fail. I believe it was the boring and tedious nature of its endgame and the brutalization of its economy by gold sellers. Now I could be wrong about that. But I know that's why I quit the original game. Because I loved the original's focus on challenging group-play. It's why I stuck around for the many years that I did. And if I really enjoy something, I can usually find a way to fit it into my life. Though I'll admit the scheduling could be a pain at times. But as long as the content is kept at reasonable numbers it was worth the effort to me. And planning an event for 5 other friends to beat the promies and get to Lufaise Meadows wasn't that bad. Now managing larger events which required alliances is another matter and I'm with you on that.

[Malithar]

Oh give me a break. Any sch that was good enough to stun in delve already has the clear. I did delve runs with people with 119 gear/relics etc that still failed - so to say full 117 party would clear all delves with NP, in a PUG ... is just silly.

Of course they have the clears, they worked at it, just as most others have. There's absolutely nothing stopping a player or group from learning how to stun and doing the content, 117 gear or otherwise. You don't even need Sch, could be Rdm, Geo, 2x Drks, etc. Laziness and competence typically don't mix well when someone has a goal in mind.

[Afania]

Of course they have the clears, they worked at it, just as most others have. There's absolutely nothing stopping a player or group from learning how to stun and doing the content, 117 gear or otherwise. You don't even need Sch, could be Rdm, Geo, 2x Drks, etc. Laziness and competence typically don't mix well when someone has a goal in mind.

The point isn't whether ilv 117 pt being doable or not, the point is that if you're an ilv 117 player with 0 delve clear experience, besides getting LS/friends to help, paying someone else for delve1 clear is hands down the most efficient solution.

Of course you can clear with an inexperienced full pt of ilv117 if you really want to, it's just that you can probably accomplish the same result faster by farm gil and buy win.

Winning a delve1 is also a bit more than "competence", 80% of them is also communication and team work. It's quite unfair to blame the failure on "laziness and incompetence" You can play perfect in your ilv 117 gears, but nothing will change if communication doesn't work.

One example is, my friend who often trio-box foret delve1, suddenly failed the same zone twice in a row when he invited 2 friends to the pt. Because he tend to sleep MB after pull, then buff the pt. While other ppl are used to buff first then pull MB and zerg. Without proper communication the result was pulled MB, someone woke MB when mages were buffing, mayhem--->wipe mages---> /rage warp.

There's nothing wrong with playstyle/gear/skill in this case(we've been clearing this zone before SoA skill update, cleared hundred times literally, if we had playstyle/gear/skill issue we wouldn't be able to), it's the difference between one /p chat sentence before pull.

If you only play with same friends or just multi-box delve1 zones solo, then you probably won't understand the tricky part of communication/team work, which often become an issue when you play with strangers. When this issue kicks in, even experienced veterans can get a slap in the face.

If this issue can happen between friends who've been clearing/selling delve1 for 1+ year, surely it'll happen a lot often between new/returning player wearing ilv117 gears with 0 clear experience. Learning how to stun needs time, learning how to DD properly needs time, learning how to deal with moves needs time, learning how to communicate in /p chat needs time and experience, and /shouting and rep members also needs time. Slowly, hours passed and the ilv117 players may still not have win. By the time you finally get win, you're lotting gears against 5 other members.

You can get everything done in 2.5hr or less solo if you buy win, and you get to lot all the gears that comes with free 70k plasm, which probably worth more than 1~3M itself.

No matter how I see it, making a pt full of ilv117 players with 0 win experience aiming for 1/1 is certainly a lot time consuming than pay 1~3M to alt tab youtube video, get all the ex/rare drop + 70k plasm and get it done with.

And it's certainly not the "incompetence" aspect that's affecting the decision to buy win instead of making an ilv 117 pt. IMO, it's a lot smarter to buy win in this case.

Personally, I just find it ironic that Comeatmebro made the comment about "it's doable!". It's a lot more convincing to hear someone who've really 1/1 delve1 with 6 returning player with 0 delve experience, instead of a player who plays with 6 mules and 1 year of delve experience making such comment.

Anyways, who cares, if I'm a returning player, I'd buy win. I have goals in mind, I'm not afraid of challenges. I just prefer faster and more efficient way to get things done, which is to pay 1~3M and lot all the gears, leech 70k plasm and watch youtube video while doing so. In this case, laziness/competence has nothing to do with it.