Effort to reward ratio for job point categories

[Olor]

On the bright side the unmasked grind is really undermining my desire to play because it feels much more like a naked waste of my one precious limited life... I guess?

[Sasaraixx]

Afania, how about you stop ignoring valid arguments and changing them into something the original poster didn't mean at all.

1. You comparing an entire class of jobs to one job and then changing the argument to "some jobs will always gain x faster" completely ignored my point. I said 4 jobs out of 22 can earn cp solo at a decent rate and some how that is the same to you as 5 jobs (ignoring other viable merit options btw) got merit points faster than BLM. Seriously?

2. Did you really just respond with "people don't spend most of their time grinding job points. They have nothing else to do SO THEY SPEND MOST OF THEIR TIME GRINDING JOB POINTS?" I just can't . . .

3 /sigh You're not worried about future category expansions because you're confident they will make it easier to grind JP. . . In other words, if they don't change the current system it will be a ridiculous undertaking! You literally just proved our point while disagreeing with us.

4. I don't care how long it takes you to do anything outside of JP's. This thread isn't about any other content. It's about the amount of effort for the reward of these points being out of whack. How long it takes you to farm plasm for vastly more beneficial rewards is entirely irrelevant.

5. You're still ignoring the fact that your merit party LP comparisons are askew because you're not taking into consideration the fact it takes more CP per job point and more job points per category.

6. Your 60k/hr "numbers" are bollocks because they literally apply to almost none of the jobs in this game. I'm not even going to get into if they are accurate or not because it doesn't matter. Your argument is still flawed because even if they are "the system is fine if you can switch to BLM or BLU to get your CP" is NOT reasonable.

7. And finally even if your numbers above were accurate or applicable to the majority, which they're not, you think 28 hours of continuous game play is a warranted investment for a lot of these categories. As I said in my last post, I don't know what else to say to you.

[Zhronne]

This info is incorrect, a good pt at 75 era farm about 15k~30k/hr. I can farm 15k CP solo in 15 min if I pop capacity ring, which is slightly faster than merit point. I've heard some AoE jobs like BLM or BLU sub COR can farm even more CP/hr.

15k wouldn't really have been much of a "good" party in the ToAU era, but yeah, numbers were around those, I was trying to give approximate number, not mathematically exact ones.
I don't want to bicker with you Afania, but I'm afraid you're forgetting some important factors when comparing CP/hr to LP/hr.
You can't compare 1:1 for several reasons, among which:

1. It's 30kCP for 1 Job Points, vs 10kLP for 1 Merit Points (3:1)
2. Aside from a couple of Merit Categories, Job Points are much more expensive with the additional upgrades
3. Psychological factor now, not practical but still very important nonetheless. Aside a couple of notable exceptions, JPs atm are much less relevant than MPs. With the result that you work more for something that gives you less. It has a huge important in the gratification and how the subjective effort:reward ratio feels for every different player, do not underestimate it please, just because it's not a "number".

Furthermore, I think you are not considering the big picture atm.
Yes, maybe 20k cp/hr is a bit low, I could have said 25k maybe or even something more if we start talking about much better optimization, but I've been very generous with the amount of hours a day, since I doubt anybody who still plays manages to play that much every day and if they do, they probably want to do other stuff too and not just CP/CP/CP/CP/CP all the time.
Either way, I was just trying to give approximate ideas, and correct me if I'm wrong but I still think I've hit the spot.
Might have not been bull's eye maybe, but it was around that.

Yes, you are right. Some jobs have it easier with CP solo farming, not denying that.
Some exceptionally skilled players like Byrth manage to get like what, 100k CP/hr on their BLM?
It's true, it's not a lie.
But then again, would you consider that "average"? Because that's what I was trying to do, create an approximate average.
I may have been a bit below with 20k cp/hr, but I don't really think I was *that far* honestly.

Considering the amount of ppl I know in this game already done with CP

What is this line supposed to mean?
Please count the number of people who are "done with JPs" (definition of "being done"?) then let's compare that number to the total amount of players and let's see how relevant of a % that number represents.
I mean, what's the point?

Also, I'm afraid you're not considering the fact that
1) They're going to add more JP categories in the future (altough of course it will eventually slow down)
2) They are going to uncap the 10 limits first to 20 and then to 30. Getting 11>20 will require 155 Job Points. That's approximately three times the amount it takes for 1-10. 21-30 will require 255 points, for a total of 465 job points.
That's around 8,5 times the amount of points required for 1-10.
Now imagine this not for 6 categories, but for 24 categories (max cap of the system)
Imagine these 24 categories for multiple jobs.
Are you starting to see the whole picture now?
How can you define this *reasonable*?

I'm not saying they should make CP as stupid as XP/LP is today (god please no!), but then again it's pretty clear we need a better compromise than the current one.

Oh and btw, for those of you argue that's been saying "this is 2014 not 2006, thus the CP gain rate isn't fine", can you list one reason to support that the "2014 game pace" being better?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this line.
You're a very smart person, surely you don't need people to remind how the game is much faster/easier/accessible than it was in 2006? Wether we like this or miss the old times is another story, but surely you can see it without anybody having to make a list of silly examples about how much times have changed?
The MMO standards have changed, what people want changed, what people are willing to accept changed, how much time people are willing to invest changed.
The effort:reward ratio to obtain some gratification changed too, not without the rightful concern of many of us who really miss the old times.
But then again, what can you do about it?
Times change, things go foward, nothing stays the same forever.

The current JP system would have been perfectly fine by 2006's standards, even later.
It's like a fish out of water with the current (retarded, imho) pace/rates of the game nowadays.
I'm sure you realize this, and if you do, then you shouldn't be surprised many players are unhappy about the JP system rates.
Wether you agree or not, you should be able to understand the other people's point of view.

[Zhronne]

One last thing. They need to find a better coherence in their plan for JPs.
Is it content "for hardcore players" or is it, like they always promoted it, content "for everyone"?
They always talked about how you would have been able to gain JPs solo, how it would have been the "natural consequence of doing something else" but atm this is very far from the truth.
Even after they patched Skirmish and Delve to give CP
RoEs can give CP, like what, 100 CP for 4 Reives? When you can get 150CP from killing a single target?

They're been too scared and conservative about CP. You can't gain it in the majority of areas/mobs outside of Adoulin.
Majority of Adoulin or current content doesn't give CP.
Alluvion Skirmish normal mobs do not give CP.
Reives don't give CP.
Assignments don't give CP.
You're basically left with very small amounts from Skirmish/Delve, ridiculous (to the point of being close to trolling) amounts from a very limited number of RoE trials, and... killing stuff.
With the latter representing like 95% of the realistic source.

How is that a balanced "variety of CP sources" in their mind is quite beyond me, frankly.
So yes, we need adjustments in the rates but also in the variety of sources.

[Olor]

I wish they would just put CP on anything that gives exp. Then I could derp around on my BST doing something more than grinding very boring mobs. Like I could (example) go camp an old NM or something - I wouldn't be getting a lot of CP but I'd at least be gaining it while doing something else. Or I could farm dyna on my BST instead of my THF - accepting lower currency for the advantage of getting CP on the job I want it on rather than a different job.

Just mindlessly grinding worthless mobs is very boring. Even rieves are less soul-crushingly boring.

[Afania]

Frankly - I'd rather the no-lifers be bored than the game return to "horrific-grind fantasy"

This argument is completely based on "build the game based on what I need" instead of "build the game based on everyone's need".

MMO isn't supposed to let you finish everything so everyone can keep playing. Even if "no-lifers" are the minority, they're still not suppose to "finish" the game and get bored.

Casual can't finish the game doesn't matter....they're not suppose to, so does no-lifers. So why are you arguing a worse game design that's less profitable(let no-lifers quit so Casual can finish the game) instead of better, more profitable one(nobody quit because no one can finish anything)

[Afania]

Afania what are you killing that you are getting 60k cp/hour. If it was truly that fast, I would do it, but it's not. Maybe I'm not killing high enough level mobs, but maybe you could share some advice on getting that kind of return on your time rather than just telling us you do it so the system works.

Doh gates, there's a camp(forget the pos) that I can chain kill mobs there, each mob gives 600 CP with rings+roll, after chain 20 it's around 900 CP.

It's rather "finish 15k in 15~20 min" instead of grind for 1hr and get 60k. After ring wear I just log off and do something else and come back with a ring.

As for AoE spot, I haven't try. I only read it from a JP blog about their 30 min merit point challenge, most ppl ended up merit point chain 80+ after 30 min and more CP than I can do after 30 min.

[Selindrile]

This argument is completely based on "build the game based on what I need" instead of "build the game based on everyone's need".

By your own logic you're in the wrong, the masses want JP to flow more freely, game design should cater to the majority of players, not the minority. Let the corner cases grind for their afterglow if they're desperate for a grind, this content is no more engaging than that, let everyone else grind less and do more interesting content more.

[Demonjustin]

I honestly don't understand why Mythics and Job Points in general should be basically off limits to "casual" players when there are long term meaningless goals in the game such as afterglows that people can go after if they so desire.

[Zhronne]

So why are you arguing a worse game design that's less profitable(let no-lifers quit so Casual can finish the game) instead of better, more profitable one(nobody quit because no one can finish anything)

That scenario being "better" is your, respectable, but subjective point of view. It's not an undeniable, absolute truth.
Aside from that, I'm afraid you're underestimating the amount of time necessary to really "finish" capping JPs on more than one job (and with finish I intend FINISH, not "getting one category to 10 and ignoring the rest 'cause you don't like/want it").
Please stop watching only at the current JP system, but imagine the system in its evolution over time, the cap to 24 different categories and the cap at 30/30 in each of them (465 JPs to cap a single category).

Even no-lifers who bot 24 hours a day with 100k cp/hr would have SERIOUS ISSUES in really capping multiple jobs. And we're talking about a negligible, hardly influencing minority of players in the grand scheme of things.

each mob gives 600 CP with rings+roll, after chain 20 it's around 900 CP.

If you include rolls that's not really solo, unless you go there on COR.
And which ring are we talking about? The 100% bonus one that is a one-time only ring and has only 12 charges?
Or the 5k Sparks one with 50% bonus?
Assuming it's the latter and assuming you're talking about numbers outside of the doubleCP campaigns, you're telling me you get 400cp per kill without chains. Correct?
How many seconds does it take for you to kill one of these targets, accounting for the engage, disengage and player movement time aspects?