Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Camiie]

Oh and another FYI, if you think I'm advocating PUP BST remain useless then you didn't read what I wrote. I said PUP BST needs to be useful, but not in a way to make them getting the same advantage as DD.

They ARE DD. They just fail at it so spectacularly that most people don't see them as such. If they're not DD then what role do they fill? Care to tell me? And soloist is not a group role.

BLU is a perfect examples of how a job that's way behind SAM in terms of dmg but still useful. Saying more dmg = more balance is one of the laziest way to balance jobs.

BLU has group utility within its variety of spells. What group utility does a BST or a PUP have that makes them worth bringing?

[Karbuncle]

They ARE DD. They just fail at it so spectacularly that most people don't see them as such. If they're not DD then what role do they fill? Care to tell me? And soloist is not a group role.

They're pet jobs, and Square sees them as such... and if you'd like to get real technical, PUP was originally intended to fill a role similar to SMN, being a support type class with their pet doing most of the work, never was intended to be taken as a DD as we use it now. This has changed since then, but it doesn't change the fact PUP can summon a Tank, Healer, or DD puppet, with the Healer being very nice to have a long...

Again, don't mean I think BST and PUP are fine, but they aren't "DD" jobs", they're considered by SE to be "Pet Jobs", what defined pet jobs IDK, DD'ing is just what they can do. PUP being weaker than BST would be understandable with Automatons being much more controllable and having the ability to bring in a pocket WHM to a full 6 man party...

[Olor]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm confident a good BST would be able to do Alluvian well... shit I've even brought a NIN lol... not a great one either, he was good, not superb.

Oh good, I was hoping so.

[Camiie]

They're pet jobs

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?

[Karbuncle]

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?

As far as PUP Goes, Hybrid Class. As far as BST goes, DD I suppose, but its also a Pet Class, however you wanna go "Full Politician" and miss the point, Pet jobs/classes do exist, and pet jobs are usually defined by having a companion, normally having lower DD from master which is made up by the Pet, the Pets usually having some sort of utility.

In that line of thinking, most pet job have lower damage from the master/pet that is balanced out by the fact they have a dispensable pet that doesn't get weakened, and can be thrown at an enemy without risk to the player, and can be resummoned based on time, perhaps their damage is too low in balance right now, which I've never denied, but insisting they're a DD class and nothing else is as narrow minded if not more so than the "SAM ONRY" shouts. Balancing pet jobs is especially difficult for Square because these jobs do bring other things to the table besides pure DD. Its just that in the eyes of the community this utility is rarely utilized or needed... so I agree BST needs something else, but what exactly? Pet jobs have generally been a Hybrid DD/Support, DD/healer, DD/tank or something to the liking, Pet jobs are unique because usually their pets bring something different to the table rather than raw DD, allowing them to be useful in more ways. This doesn't exactly fit in XI's world it seems, as even jobs like PUP and SMN are left out for a lot of events.

Balancing pet jobs is one of the hardest thing to do when it comes to MMO classes, because you have to achieve a good amount of utility from the job, but not making it so end all that the utility of the pet renders other jobs obsolete. I can't think of anything SE could do to balance the job fairly.

A small, small damage boost to the master would be a good start. Increasing the mods on their WS would go a long way as some of them are underwhelming. Pets getting buffs from party would also help in both pet survival and the masters overall DPS. But outside of minor damage upgrades, BST would need to bring something to the table to be worth using over SAM, right? What could that be, or would everyone be content with BST just being another DD job and nothing else?

Perhaps the Self-buff pet TP moves could be AoE? BST is in a pretty sh*tty spot right now, but will more damage solve that? Maybe, but then you'll just have SAMs and other DD complaining that their jobs aren't invited cause BST does the same damage and has a dispensable pet, and the cycle continues.

[Bebekeke]

BST can have a lot of utility in a fight... choosing the right pet so that you can use Killer Instinct, or choosing a pet for particular enfeebles provides a very strong edge in a fight.

Not to mention the fact that in a particularly hard fight there's still the option to take 6 BST all with a very durable pet (VS adoulin mobs, choosing a pet that's strong to the 1 element that most bosses use is good) and just stick the pets on to bounce hate around while keeping the master out of range.

The only real issue that BST has right now is the lack of options at 119 to provide this utility.

[Camiie]

As far as PUP Goes, Hybrid Class. As far as BST goes, DD I suppose, but its also a Pet Class, however you wanna go "Full Politician" and miss the point, Pet jobs/classes do exist, and pet jobs are usually defined by having a companion, normally having lower DD from master which is made up by the Pet, the Pets usually having some sort of utility.

In the MMOs I am familiar with pet classes are DPS classes, and despite their innate ability to solo well, they are allowed to effectively DPS in whatever content they wish to participate in. I'm not going to claim there aren't balance issues, but they are minuscule compared to the utter nonsense that is FFXI class balance.

BST can have a lot of utility in a fight... choosing the right pet so that you can use Killer Instinct, or choosing a pet for particular enfeebles provides a very strong edge in a fight.

Not to mention the fact that in a particularly hard fight there's still the option to take 6 BST all with a very durable pet (VS adoulin mobs, choosing a pet that's strong to the 1 element that most bosses use is good) and just stick the pets on to bounce hate around while keeping the master out of range.

The only real issue that BST has right now is the lack of options at 119 to provide this utility.

Killer Instinct? Really? And what happens when your foes aren't part of the beast strength chart? Your Killer Instinct buff is now worthless while a WAR can still Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry or Blood Rage and be just as effective. A SAM can still self buff with Hasso/Seigan and Meditate. A MNK can still Mantra and Formless Strikes.

If you want to go the buff route then go the route WoW does with Hunter. Each family of pet has a certain buff they bring to the table that affects the group. A wolf gives off an attack boost regardless of what you're fighting. Make Killer Instinct do that and you have a much more universally effective ability. The drawback would be that you'd likely be stuck always using the same pet and the others would languish in party play, but at least you'd have something to offer a group regardless of the type of mob you're facing.

[Afania]

Instead of MNK MNK SAM SAM WHM BRD?

Gee... what a huge difference, not.

As everyone has noted, no one cares about utility. Not a bit.

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:

That is why I have the opinion that the same damage means balance, that comment right there ^

The player base could care less if your job has utility. Not a three to four song bard with Gilga horn? That's too bad, maybe next time.
Not a SAM with 119 & Fudo, good luck see you again!
Etc etc etc . . .


With out the ability to deal the right amount of damage your job will be ignored for end game content.

The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Afania]

"Pet job" is not a group role. DPS/DD, Tank, Healer, and Support are group roles. A job/class in a group based MMO needs to fit effectively into one or more of those categories. So again which do they fall under?

My real question is why do you insist jobs must fill one of the DPS/tank/healer/support role in MMO. Ever since SWTOR a lot of the AAA MMO have been trying to move away from the traditional group roles in MMO. Classes in GW2 are hybrids and they can change roles depending on the build/situation. All 4 classes in TESO can be played as DD/tank/healer/support depending on how you want to play it.

If I remember correctly I think EQN may move away from DPS/tank/healer/support as well.

Pet doesn't need to fill one of it's job roles, and DD role isn't the only place it belongs. It can have multiple functions in event. It can act as ranged dmg DPS instead of melee only, it can function as tank. It can CC.

I believe in order to fix BST, pet's dmg and mechanics needs to be changed(instead of master's) They also need some other utility that makes a difference. If they can get AoE WS as strong as fell cleave, or survive ability close to PLD, and ranged dmg close to RNG, it can be a pretty useful hybrid even in delve.

Give pets some utility moves such as potent def/eva down and it can be a viable support.

BST can at least fill DD(both melee and ranged), tank, and support with current mechanic, the only thing it can't do is heal.

Imagine this, you're doing marj on a pet job, you pull NM with pet and use AoE move to clear them real fast, on more dangerous NM such as T5 or megaboss you summoned a tank pet and have it tank the NM while other RNG kill it. You also do def down/eva down with pet's specialty on all NM for faster kill speed.

Even if BST can only do 65% dmg of SAM, I fail to see why you wouldn't bring one in such situation.

Come on, be creative. Making every job that can do the same dmg as sam isn't the only way to accomplish balance, more like the most boring way.

[Malithar]

Imagine this, you're doing marj on a pet job, you pull NM with pet and use AoE move to clear them real fast, on more dangerous NM such as T5 or megaboss you summoned a tank pet and have it tank the NM while other RNG kill it. You also do def down/eva down with pet's specialty on all NM for faster kill speed.

Even if BST can only do 65% dmg of SAM, I fail to see why you wouldn't bring one in such situation.

Because that situation doesn't exist? 2/3 of the "fixes" you mentioned above revolve around what pet jobs are asking for, increased damage output to better compete with other DDs. I get where you're coming from about hybrids, and offering more to a party, but Bst nor Pup offers these things. Pup's Soulsoother? Great for soloing, terrible in parties. Bst admittedly has a few nifty debuffs that Dasva discovered, -25% eva comes to mind. But these are on pets that are no longer viable.

The entire idea behind hybrids is silly IMO. I mean, some MMOs you could stretch it out and call everything a hybrid because they have cool downs for HP gain, -DT, damage, buffs, you name it. Even here, would you call a War a hybrid? They're beefy enough to tank and get massive TP gain through Retaliation, can get respectable defense, AoE buff with Warcry and Blood Rage 20% of the time, and still provide solid single target DPS, or good AoE DPS with Fell Cleave.

There's a line for everything though. No, War is not a buffer, and calling War a tank is a stretch anymore in this day and age. It's a DD. Pulling out these asinine scenarios of pet burns, pet CCing, imaginary non-existent situations where pet jobs are omg amazing and people who don't take them for their "65% damage of a Sam" *highly skeptical of this* and utility are twats is silly. Every job needs an easily defined party roll so that in this day and age of pugs, party leaders know what a job has to offer, and SE needs to make jobs capable of performing to a desired degree (read, not just equal to 100%+ of the best DD available) to be able to meaningfully contribute. I don't agree with their post about pet + master > DD, but I don't think it should be very far below the DD either.

As far as shouts go, nothing will change unless they completely unhinge whatever they got setup. They just buffed Geo out the ass, insanely OP atm. Have you seen a shout for a Geo? Neither have I. But Geo has the tools available to make parties go "woah.." all Matrix like, and make people see that a Geo is worth bringing. What can a Bst do? A Pup? At the moment, they can't even send a tell to a party looking for a DD (whether they're shouting for Sam and Mnk or not) and say "I'll DD on Bst" with a straight face.

And before the whole argument of job change comes back round, I agree, you should have multiple jobs leveled to fill whatever the situation may need. However, all jobs should be capable of performing at some sort of a baseline as well. Well below 50% of another DD's output is not cutting it.