Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Olor]

If they're game designers it'd be disaster :/ We'd see "/shout Yorcia delve do you need it. BLU BLU BLU BLU BRD WHM"

Instead of MNK MNK SAM SAM WHM BRD?

Gee... what a huge difference, not.

As everyone has noted, no one cares about utility. Not a bit. TH maybe the only exception, and nowadays rarely. Either the drop rate is so good you don't need it, or so random no one trusts TH, or so low it appears to make zero discernible difference.

That's why I say that DD jobs should have no more than 10 per cent of their Damage output negated for their "utility." My ability as a bst to hold a fodder mob or w/e is not worth the HUGE loss in DPS I suffer for simply being a pet job. If it was, people would be interested in inviting BSTs. With 10 per cent difference MNK SAM and other pure DDs still stand out as DDs but it starts to seem more sane to look at utility of other jobs a bit more.

Also people act like light DDs don't sacrifice elsewhere than just pure damage - they also have less HP, more job ability delay, are harder to gear (especially BLU... omg), their gear is less tanky, etc.

[Afania]

Instead of MNK MNK SAM SAM WHM BRD?

Gee... what a huge difference, not.

As everyone has noted, no one cares about utility. Not a bit.

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:

That is why I have the opinion that the same damage means balance, that comment right there ^

The player base could care less if your job has utility. Not a three to four song bard with Gilga horn? That's too bad, maybe next time.
Not a SAM with 119 & Fudo, good luck see you again!
Etc etc etc . . .


With out the ability to deal the right amount of damage your job will be ignored for end game content.

The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Aeron]

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:





The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

Awesome post really outlines the right way to think about the game in its current form.