Gravity Nerf...

[Sasaraixx]

Don't get me wrong, this update was HUGE for Rdm. But no matter how you cut it, Gravity was nerfed and Rdm's Gravity II had a fairly potent -25 Evasion that it can no longer bring to the table. Sure, Distract II definitely helps make for this, but it's still not as much as it ultimately could have been for Rdm. So it's like Rdm was buffed, but not as much as they could have been due to losing Gravity II's -25 Evasion, which would have stacked with Distract. That is the bigger picture, and if you can't see that, then you are blind and without eye drops. Or just stupid.

You really are not in a position to call anyone else stupid.

You are talking about the loss of a bonus which never existed and never was intended. The potency of Distract was determined with the changes to Gravity II in mind. Had they decided not to remove the evasion down effect of gravity, the potency of Distract would have been lowered.

That -25 evasion you can "no longer bring to the table" was replaced by a spell with twice the potency and the ability to be augmented further. You lost nothing in this update except perhaps for the inability to land -Eva on fire based mobs, but even that is balanced by being now being able to apply the buff to ice based mobs.

You now have the ability to lower the monster's evasion by up to 4 times more than you could previously and and the gap between RDM main and /RDM has increased by a similar margin. Yes, this was clearly a nerf.

There is a conversation to be had bout what this change does for RDM in the long run, but there is not one to be he about a non-existent nerf.

[Creelo]

You really are not in a position to call anyone else stupid.

You are talking about the loss of a bonus which never existed and never was intended. The potency of Distract was determined with the changes to Gravity II in mind. Had they decided not to remove the evasion down effect of gravity, the potency of Distract would have been lowered.

That -25 evasion you can "no longer bring to the table" was replaced by a spell with twice the potency and the ability to be augmented further. You lost nothing in this update except perhaps for the inability to land -Eva on fire based mobs, but even that is balanced by being now being able to apply the buff to ice based mobs.

You now have the ability to lower the monster's evasion by up to 4 times more than you could previously and and the gap between RDM main and /RDM has increased by a similar margin. Yes, this was clearly a nerf.

There is a conversation to be had bout what this change does for RDM in the long run, but there is not one to be he about a non-existent nerf.

You really have horrible reading comprehension. I'm literally just saying that GRAVITY was nerfed. I'm not saying the entire job of Rdm was nerfed by this update; I've clearly said quite the opposite. GRAVITY no longer gives -10/-25 Evasion down on the enemy, and that IS a nerf (If you can't see this as a nerf to Gravity itself then you're hopeless). You can't say that WSs like Mordant Rime and Rudra's Storm weren't nerfed slightly by this update, because they were because GRAVITY was nerfed. Yes, Rdm has Distract II now to make up for this. But why couldn't it also have Gravity II's Evasion down as well? If you don't need Gravity II's -25 Evasion, then don't cast it and stick with Distract II, thus enabling Gravity II to still be the utility spell they want it to be. But if you were to need it in addition to Distract II, well now you can't have that extra -25 Evasion down. That could have been a really nice feature of Rdm, something to make it really stand out in a party situation, but apparently it would have been too "unbalanced" (which is laughable given what other jobs like Cor/Geo/Brd can do and how unbalanced DD jobs currently are).

Going back to my original post, I just feel this nerf to Gravity was unnecessary given the current state of the game. I never expected this thread to blow up so much, so if you can't contribute anything, then just stop.



PS for Sasaraixx: You don't seem to understand how Saboteur works on NMs, you aren't going to have -108 Evasion on anything worthwhile due to it being an NM and it's not going to last 4.5min. I love how you seem to think that you can keep up this kind of Sab debuff on the enemy full time too. I also love how you seem to think that I'm unaware of potency of Distract II when I was the one who found these numbers in the first place. Also, Distract II is Ice based, so you probably are going to have a tough time landing it on Ice based mobs... I'm guessing you meant Wind-based mobs, but by all means, apparently you know this job better than I do so go right ahead. Finally, the gap between Rdm main and /rdm has hardly increased, if at all, since jobs like Geo/rdm, Sch/rdm, even Whm/rdm (where before /sch was much preferred for Whm main, /rdm is now a viable option) gained so much from this update, especially Geo/rdm. Even jobs like Cor/rdm and Brd/rdm gained a new buff through Flurry, and Cors and Brds don't have to rely on landing debuffs on mobs to be useful either. So. Please tell me. Cause I am dying to know how the gap between Rdm main and /rdm has increased by "4 times as much."

One last thing, I believe Demonjustin hinted at this earlier, but if they really were determining the potency of Distract I/II off of Gravity I/II's Evasion down, then how the hell did they come up with -35/-50 for Distract I/II when Gravity I/II was -10/-25? If anything, the potency for Distract should probably have been -20/-50.

[Sasaraixx]

You really have horrible reading comprehension. I'm literally just saying that GRAVITY was nerfed. I'm not saying the entire job of Rdm was nerfed by this update; I've clearly said quite the opposite. GRAVITY no longer gives -10/-25 Evasion down on the enemy, and that IS a nerf (If you can't see this as a nerf to Gravity itself then you're hopeless). You can't say that WSs like Mordant Rime and Rudra's Storm weren't nerfed slightly by this update, because they were because GRAVITY was nerfed. Yes, Rdm has Distract II now to make up for this. But why couldn't it also have Gravity II's Evasion down as well? If you don't need Gravity II's -25 Evasion, then don't cast it and stick with Distract II, thus enabling Gravity II to still be the utility spell they want it to be. But if you were to need it in addition to Distract II, well now you can't have that extra -25 Evasion down. That could have been a really nice feature of Rdm, something to make it really stand out in a party situation, but apparently it would have been too "unbalanced" (which is laughable given what other jobs like Cor/Geo/Brd can do and how unbalanced DD jobs currently are).

Going back to my original post, I just feel this nerf to Gravity was unnecessary given the current state of the game. I never expected this thread to blow up so much, so if you can't contribute anything, then just stop.



PS for Sasaraixx: You don't seem to understand how Saboteur works on NMs, you aren't going to have -108 Evasion on anything worthwhile due to it being an NM and it's not going to last 4.5min. I love how you seem to think that you can keep up this kind of Sab debuff on the enemy full time too. I also love how you seem to think that I'm unaware of potency of Distract II when I was the one who found these numbers in the first place. Also, Distract II is Ice based, so you probably are going to have a tough time landing it on Ice based mobs... I'm guessing you meant Wind-based mobs, but by all means, apparently you know this job better than I do so go right ahead. Finally, the gap between Rdm main and /rdm has hardly increased, if at all, since jobs like Geo/rdm, Sch/rdm, even Whm/rdm (where before /sch was much preferred for Whm main, /rdm is now a viable option) gained so much from this update, especially Geo/rdm. Even jobs like Cor/rdm and Brd/rdm gained a new buff through Flurry, and Cors and Brds don't have to rely on landing debuffs on mobs to be useful either. So. Please tell me. Cause I am dying to know how the gap between Rdm main and /rdm has increased by "4 times as much."

One last thing, I believe Demonjustin hinted at this earlier, but if they really were determining the potency of Distract I/II off of Gravity I/II's Evasion down, then how the hell did they come up with -35/-50 for Distract I/II when Gravity I/II was -10/-25? If anything, the potency for Distract should probably have been -20/-50.

This is absolutely the last time I am going to take the time to respond to you. In addition to being increasingly rude, you are the one who doesn't get it.

You weren't complaining about a nerf to RDM?

The problem with taking away Gravity's evasion down effect is that you lose a spell that could possibly land more easily than Distract on certain monsters (fire based, especially). And yes, this was effectively a nerf to Rdm because their Gravity II's -25 Evasion was nice enough to be noticeable and worthwhile, and Rdm needs all the love it can get right now. It's more of a slap to a face because we weren't told of this until the update actually hit.

You were saying??

And your points about Mordant Rime and Rudra's Storm are entirely beside the point because you created an entire thread to complain about RDM.

I'm not contributing anything? I've only explained to you multiple times why the decision was made to remove the evasion down from Gravity. If you don't want to listen to me then you can at least listen to the Dev Team who has responded to this multiple times.

I'm pretty sure Gravity is still a utility spell because it lowers a monster's movement speed. And you keep mentioning this extra -25 evasion you would have if Gravity had not been nerfed, but time and time again you fail to understand that Distract's potency was calculated with this change in mind. You would have gotten a lower potency spell. But hey if you want to cast two spells in order to have the same effect as one, then that is your prerogative.

And I know you are desperate to prove your point, but do not make up things I never said. Never did I say you'd have the -108 evasion on NM's and I never said you'd have it up full time either. I stated the range of possibilities.

And no, I know exactly what I meant. It is ice based so you are going to have a tough time landing it on fire based mobs, fire being strong to ice and all. You even mentioned fire-based mobs in your own post. . . And I did mean ice based mobs because you would probably have an easier time landing an ice spell on an ice based mob than you would a wind spell.

You complain about my reading comprehension? Good god. I was referring to the gap between how much RDM and /RDM can lower the monster's evasion, not their overall utility. Making up things that I never said really isn't helping your case at all. I've already said multiple times that there is a discussion to be had about whether or not these changes will improve RDM's standing. Acknowledging that though would poke yet another hole in your "argument," so I can see why you ignored it.

Multiplying numbers by 2 is easy, but I have a feeling the dev team put a little more thought into it when they came up with the numbers for Distract. You can ask them though.

If you want complain about something that you really have no business complaining about, have at it. Reason doesn't seem to effect you, so I happily withdraw from this conversation.

[Malithar]

So in regards to Rdm, you'd of preferred them to leave Gravity effects as is, and balance around Rdm's maintaining Distract II and Gravity II for the -50 evasion? Even though this would directly nerf Rdm's ability to grant -eva through their JAs due to being split between two different spells, granting a weaker result? Even though it'd just be more busy work for the same result (barring fighting a mob that resists one of the spells)?

It sucks it got hit, but really, if a dagger user is that upset over losing potentially -10 evasion on their WS, my heart goes out to em. They'll manage, just like anyone has who catches a swing of the nerf bat, no matter how big or small it may be.

[Creelo]

So in regards to Rdm, you'd of preferred them to leave Gravity effects as is, and balance around Rdm's maintaining Distract II and Gravity II for the -50 evasion? Even though this would directly nerf Rdm's ability to grant -eva through their JAs due to being split between two different spells, granting a weaker result? Even though it'd just be more busy work for the same result (barring fighting a mob that resists one of the spells)?

No. I'd have preferred the current Distract numbers (although -35 is still rather high for the Tier 1 version) in addition to Gravity II's -25 Evasion. I should have definitely been more clear about this, but that's what I felt I was saying this entire time. Like below

Yes, Rdm has Distract II now to make up for this. But why couldn't it also have Gravity II's Evasion down as well? If you don't need Gravity II's -25 Evasion, then don't cast it and stick with Distract II, thus enabling Gravity II to still be the utility spell they want it to be. But if you were to need it in addition to Distract II, well now you can't have that extra -25 Evasion down. That could have been a really nice feature of Rdm, something to make it really stand out in a party situation, but apparently it would have been too "unbalanced" (which is laughable given what other jobs like Cor/Geo/Brd can do and how unbalanced DD jobs currently are).

Maybe if Sasaraixx reads this, he'll truly understand what I've been saying. I totally understand that Distract's numbers were derived from Gravity losing its evasion down effect; I'm simply questioning why we couldn't have both Distract II's -50 Evasion and Gravity II's -25 Evasion in the first place.

And Sasaraixx, I could point out the holes in your previous post, but I'm sick of it. If you want me to, I will. But I'm just over it at this point.

Anyways, Job utility is truly what matters here, and has been a theme I've been getting at this entire thread. And in terms of Job utility for party play, Rdm, even after this update, still falls behind compared to similar jobs like Brd/Cor/Geo/Whm/Sch, largely because the new Tier 1 Rdm spells are available with /rdm and the large disparity between buffs and a Rdm's debuffs in general. But the gap would be slightly less if Gravity II still gave -25 Evasion in addition to Distract II's -50 base.

Edit: But Gravity II's evasion down is probably gone for good (if they did bring it back, I'm sure they'd lower Distract's evasion down for it, which is NOT something I want or have wanted with this thread) and so is the potential that I've been talking about this entire time, and it's not like the English forums truly make an impact on FFXI to begin with.

[Raydeus]

< *Is seen in the distance happily soloing content*

[Glamdring]

Creelo is right about the nerf to the mentioned WS-and a couple weapons no one uses anymore that had additional effect gravity for that matter. not that they were a huge part of end-game but they did have their place and that place is less valuable now. I think those WS need to be revisited to get their utility to pre-nerf levels, soloing on bard (which I don't have to do anymore as easy as it is to recap XP) was a hell of a lot easier with Mordant Rime.

and I actually did use gravity for the eva down effect, made skilling my sword easy and I didn't have to /dnc to do it. Distract might be better, but stacking the two would be even better. It's not like they last long enough to be an OP game changer if they did stack-on boss mobs I would expect maybe 3-4 hits from the faster DD (who tend not to hit as hard) max before both wore.

But while I can't speak for everyone my brd is enfeebling/debuffing like a madman, including stuff off my subjob, especially Finale, and I even throw in Lullabys to interrupt casting on mobs that aren't immune (and can be interrupted). Even in endgame, just toss the matching threnody 1st and you can land the debuff usually if the mob is resistant. Unfortunately, that's just one more reason rdm main isn't that much stronger than /rdm, and coupled with stuff off the brd main tends to mean I have more utility. Although I DO have to work my ass off to exercise it.

[Damane]

No. I'd have preferred the current Distract numbers (although -35 is still rather high for the Tier 1 version) in addition to Gravity II's -25 Evasion. I should have definitely been more clear about this, but that's what I felt I was saying this entire time. Like below



Maybe if Sasaraixx reads this, he'll truly understand what I've been saying. I totally understand that Distract's numbers were derived from Gravity losing its evasion down effect; I'm simply questioning why we couldn't have both Distract II's -50 Evasion and Gravity II's -25 Evasion in the first place.

And Sasaraixx, I could point out the holes in your previous post, but I'm sick of it. If you want me to, I will. But I'm just over it at this point.

Anyways, Job utility is truly what matters here, and has been a theme I've been getting at this entire thread. And in terms of Job utility for party play, Rdm, even after this update, still falls behind compared to similar jobs like Brd/Cor/Geo/Whm/Sch, largely because the new Tier 1 Rdm spells are available with /rdm and the large disparity between buffs and a Rdm's debuffs in general. But the gap would be slightly less if Gravity II still gave -25 Evasion in addition to Distract II's -50 base.

Edit: But Gravity II's evasion down is probably gone for good (if they did bring it back, I'm sure they'd lower Distract's evasion down for it, which is NOT something I want or have wanted with this thread) and so is the potential that I've been talking about this entire time, and it's not like the English forums truly make an impact on FFXI to begin with.

I'd trade in a gravity eva loss anytime for a spell that isnt quiet as much resisted on mobs ¬.¬ i dont see your point in your brabbling because of gravity nerf.

[Babekeke]

It's a fair point to say that the WS with gravity effects have lost out due to this update, but the spell gravity was not nerfed... it was broken down into 2 separate elements, one of which was doubled in potency.

[Creelo]

No one reads. My message is simple: I would have preferred SE keep Distract I/IIs numbers as they currently are (-35/-50 base) along with Gravity I/II still giving Evasion -10/-25. This would only help Rdm and this would prevent the nerf on WSs like Mordant Rime/Rudra's Storm.

It's literally that simple. I wanted to just leave this thread altogether but the fact that people just don't get it boggles my mind.