A Suggestion From The Pet Job Community: Stop Ignoring Us and Listen To Our Plea.

[Glamdring]

Exactly. This is poor game design, knowing that anything not a MNK RNG PLD won't stand a chance.

...

Telling someone to level another job doesn't cut it, because all the favored jobs require top-notch gear that takes time to obtain. People are already blowing through endgame content, and anyone that didn't already have the popular 6 jobs ready are left in the dust.

and never forget, those jobs are just the flavor of the month until SE's next battle system roll-out. in case you don't remember it wasn't that long ago that the only way someone's Pld for example was getting a party invite was out of pity and even then only if you were sleeping with the player real life-and he still better have an Aegis AND an Ochain already. I'm actually surprised that some of the mages that don't start SCH are getting some occasional party love-unless you needed to hit a proc they've mostly been ignored since pre-ToAU meri-pos.

@Wow, as to other DDs, yes, they can function, but the term you are looking for is "MP sponge". other DD types can wipe your healers out in a big hurry, both of MP and life if they have to cure bomb. that's the survivability argument. and gear isn't the answer. SE could make the sweetest DEF+ gear you ever saw for all those jobs and all the players will completely ignore it, they only care about the DPS parser. and fixing the job's damage won't fix the problem, they'll still take the DPS+ gear over the DEF+ because they can get DPS even higher. Honestly, outside soloing rare is the player that thinks about survival in their build at all, especially with the reduced XP loss and the quick regain these days.

[WoW]

Again with the minority argument. I swear that's the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit ones opinion or stated facts. But you know what, I'm not wasting my key strokes. Go ahead SE, listen to these whiners and complainers it's not like you'll create a WoW clone in hopes of appeasing them.

*looks at FFXIV ARR*

Too Late.

Have to agree, otherwise ppl can say that about anything.

[Mitruya]

Again with the minority argument. I swear that's the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit ones opinion or stated facts. But you know what, I'm not wasting my key strokes. Go ahead SE, listen to these whiners and complainers it's not like you'll create a WoW clone in hopes of appeasing them.

*looks at FFXIV ARR*

Too Late.

I have never played WoW or FFXIV. This is my first and only MMO so I don't have anything to compare this to. Therefore, I don't understand your anger with us in what has been 20 odd pages of mostly positive support. I don't understand what is so wrong about having more than 5 or 6 jobs be viable.
I don't mind challenge. I just want to PLAY THE GAME I PAY FOR, and not feel like I wasted 30 bucks on the SoA expansion because of job exclusivity and Valefor being a f***g dead server.
More eloquent posters than myself have pointed out the unlikelyhood of becoming overpowered due to job mechanics/limitations. I believe someone also pointed out there is no challenge in throwing MNKs and RNGs at everything anyway.
Explain the logic of SE giving pet jobs level 117-119 items, with no content to really use them in that sparks gear or Wildskeeper gear wouldn't perform just as well. (not counting Upukirex, since DRG does get invited as a DD from time to time)

[Jinzha]

Again with the minority argument. I swear that's the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit ones opinion or stated facts. But you know what, I'm not wasting my key strokes. Go ahead SE, listen to these whiners and complainers it's not like you'll create a WoW clone in hopes of appeasing them.

*looks at FFXIV ARR*

Too Late.

Actually I find it a bit funny that you would say that the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit one's opinion or stated fact is by calling it the minority's opinion. Pet jobs have been the minority class in Final Fantasy XI since their existence, and every time the pet job community attempts to voice their opinion, we're always shut down by the game developers because they fear upsetting the majority by disrupting the job class hierarchy. People have been using the outdated dogma of believing that any vast change in FFXI's mmo mechanics will lead to FFXI becoming the equivalent of WoW. I think that mantra is a bit overused and what you would call a "effort to discredit one's opinion" because anytime anyone wants to make the game better, someone yells 'World of Warcraft' and suddenly that opinion is discredited. All you have given us is accusations that the implementation of our suggestions will lead to the downfall of the game, and your only evidence is an analogy to WoW. The reason why your opinion was discredited was not because it was a minority opinion in this thread, but simply because you have given no one any substantial evidence of how our suggestions could even lead FFXI on the road to WoW. When people like you pop up in this thread and simply say things like "No, I believe pet jobs should stay the way they are," you're not contributing anything to this thread other than wasting 30 seconds of someone's life. The point of this thread isn't to pick a side: [Pet buffs and cures] vs. [no pet buffs and cures] or [To fix] vs. [not to fix]. The point is to come up with a solution through compromise. Everybody who actually plays a pet job class as their main class agrees that there is a problem with pet jobs in group content. We're not here to debate whether or not pet classes need to be fixed but rather trying to find a reasonable and balanced solution because it has already been established that pet jobs need some sort of revisions. So if you have nothing more to contribute to this thread other then "Pet jobs are fine the way they are," then you're wasting your time and our time.

[Damane]

Again with the minority argument. I swear that's the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit ones opinion or stated facts. But you know what, I'm not wasting my key strokes. Go ahead SE, listen to these whiners and complainers it's not like you'll create a WoW clone in hopes of appeasing them.

*looks at FFXIV ARR*

Too Late.

As if FFXI hasnt move allready a large amount into WoW directions with the ilvl system and various other stuff ¬.¬ (which isnt per say bad)

[WoW]

I never said that Terri didn't have the right to post in this forum, I simply asked for her to take her biased opinions elsewhere. He or she has the right to say no if he or she pleases.



My opinions are just opinions. Nothing more. Anyone who reads what I have to say can decide for themselves if they agree with them or not, but I'm not holding a knife to anyone's throat and saying that my opinions are absolute. I respect everyone's opinion here, and I'm willing to reconsider my own if the person is convincing enough, but if people have the right to make half thought remarks that are clearly bias and made out to irritate everyone rather than give constructive input, then I also have the right to give my opinion, although in may be a bit blunt. Here is a clear example of why I do what I do:



I mean come on. Krystal is clearly insulting everyone by saying that we're the reason why the game is the way it is. People like this start the cat fight first, so I should have the right to return fire by calling him or her a dumb-ass.



Again. Seriously? Like really seriously? Cool opinion, but I'm pretty sure she's a minority in this argument. Anyone who is content with pet jobs the way they are are simply content because they don't play pet jobs as a main class. For us who actually take the pet job class seriously, it's easy to realize that pet jobs are not quote on quote "fine the way they are".

Actually I find it a bit funny that you would say that the ultimate fallback in an effort to discredit one's opinion or stated fact is by calling it the minority's opinion. Pet jobs have been the minority class in Final Fantasy XI since their existence, and every time the pet job community attempts to voice their opinion, we're always shut down by the game developers because they fear upsetting the majority by disrupting the job class hierarchy. People have been using the outdated dogma of believing that any vast change in FFXI's mmo mechanics will lead to FFXI becoming the equivalent of WoW. I think that mantra is a bit overused and what you would call a "effort to discredit one's opinion" because anytime anyone wants to make the game better, someone yells 'World of Warcraft' and suddenly that opinion is discredited. All you have given us is accusations that the implementation of our suggestions will lead to the downfall of the game, and your only evidence is an analogy to WoW. The reason why your opinion was discredited was not because it was a minority opinion in this thread, but simply because you have given no one any substantial evidence of how our suggestions could even lead FFXI on the road to WoW. When people like you pop up in this thread and simply say things like "No, I believe pet jobs should stay the way they are," you're not contributing anything to this thread other than wasting 30 seconds of someone's life. The point of this thread isn't to pick a side: [Pet buffs and cures] vs. [no pet buffs and cures] or [To fix] vs. [not to fix]. The point is to come up with a solution through compromise. Everybody who actually plays a pet job class as their main class agrees that there is a problem with pet jobs in group content. We're not here to debate whether or not pet classes need to be fixed but rather trying to find a reasonable and balanced solution because it has already been established that pet jobs need some sort of revisions. So if you have nothing more to contribute to this thread other then "Pet jobs are fine the way they are," then you're wasting your time and our time.

That is the point; you stated that bst are the minority; hence their opinions do not matter. I believe Krystal was referring to shutting down/brushing off individual's opinions by stating that they are the minority. For instance; i do not agree that buffing pets with attack and acc would overpower them; however, cures would = no pet food. I did not tune out Krystal's argument because ppl feel she is the minority.

The minority argument is sort of a cop-out; I believe you stated that bst were the minority. I will hear out anyone whom opinions differ from my own; I was even convinced that these buffs will not overpower pets based on the comments posted in this thread.

[Lithera]

Yet, she has yet to state why pet jobs are fine as they are and thus don't need a big hand up just to be more productive in a party or alliance situation except that it will be the one thing that will kill the game. Along with the game becoming more WoW like. Except that both of the DD that regularly get asked to parties and alliance stuff are going to have massive butthurt because omg someone might think about bringing a pet job for something more than angon or to use AF on something.

[Damane]

Yet, she has yet to state why pet jobs are fine as they are and thus don't need a big hand up just to be more productive in a party or alliance situation except that it will be the one thing that will kill the game. Along with the game becoming more WoW like. Except that both of the DD that regularly get asked to parties and alliance stuff are going to have massive butthurt because omg someone might think about bringing a pet job for something more than angon or to use AF on something.

zomg blasphemy people actually haveing to put effort into MNK to compete with other DDs!!! Mindblowing!!!! (/sarcasmoff)

Thats how it should be, you have to earn your place in a pt, not get it for granted just because your Job has 3923029 better abilitys/ws etc then others.

[Demonjustin]

I referenced 14; the two tank jobs can tank, all the dps can dps. for instance, my free company would say, "Any dd needs ampapor keep?" XIV simplified the job system, it can be done. However, the way XI's job systems is currently constructed, they may need to make certain tanks shine on various hard level content, because that is how they designed the game; cannot get past that. They can make each job specialize at a specific fight, but not every fight. For instance, NIN shines on a very hard boss, while pld shines on another, ditto for run. Spread these battles across relevant content to enforce equal job playability. As it pertains to dd, allow them to possess equal dd capabilities; akin to 14. They may have to tools to scale and balance this. For instance, give bst a pet with berserk to make up for the lack of offensive JAs.

Excluding RUN, PLD & NIN kinda have this setup right now, where PLD can tank Delve bosses and NIN can tank AAs, the thing is there's nothing in this game PLD can't tank right now and NIN can that I'm aware of. Creating that balance would be fine, but you'd have to make it a mob that is completely outside of what we see from SE today and so strong that 1 hit would be either so deadly it nearly kills you, or it flat out 1 shots you, because anything less and a PLD will be able to tank it all the same. The AoE spell spam would have to completely stop, the AoE normal moves would have to be done away with, the TP moves that ignore or rip through shadows effortlessly would need to be stopped or at least massively slowed down. It's hard to come up with something not insanely stupidly overpowered that PLD can't tank, but NIN can, simply because PLD is a godly tank of their own undoing that has everything besides hate tools at it's disposal, and that brings me to the next reply...

Edit: The job play mechanics enforce specialization; for instance, not every tank job can be invited to take on a particular boss; that has been the case since XI was born. Now; if they got rid of these specializations and allowed nin and rune to mitigate physical damage akin to a pld; ochain plds would cry foul, now we opened up another can of worms especially if the damage reduction does not require the run or nin to possess a Relic or emp.

PLDs would have no right to complain, I admit if it were to easy to complain maybe there's a leg to stand on, but right now RUN has no use really because you're looking at a job that is unable to prevent physical damage enough to survive between spells. If you compare that to the fact PLDs have easy access to Aegis, the shield which made RUN sound like a joke of an idea and to a good extent still does, giving RUN the ability to mitigate 50% of their damage taken from physical attacks seems like a non-issue to me, I mean they're still getting hit fairly hard, they just don't royally suck anymore.

DDs are quite simple to balance compared to tanks. A dds primary job is to deal damage (And survive while doing it for the nitpickers, lol); ok, simple enough, allow each job access to a massive damage boost akin to the top tier dd jobs. Tanks are a bit tricky, because their specializations are rather unique compared to dds. Nins are evasion masters, plds are physical damage reduction, while run are supposedly magic damage reduction. DDs..well...they dd; it does not matter how they do it, so long as they put out a massive amount of damage. Now, giving a run the blocking capabilities of a pld could open up a new problem/complaining.....allowing bst to put out similar damage to a war would not matter much; because a war will still get the job done; only difference is, a bst can as well; hence invite either or.

This I agree with.

Back on topic to pet jobs, bst in particular; just make the jug pets close the gap between us and other top dds; that is all. I mean, if they have to add better pets, boost ready moves again, give pets JAs, or what ever they choose to do.

I think another issue that needs to be looked at for all pet jobs, or all jobs in general, is still the large issue of JA delay. Fix BST pets, Automatons, and so on however you wish but when the master is standing there a full 2 seconds doing nothing because he had to throw a treat to his pet, call a new one, or tell it to stop being stupid and use it's TP, it's starting to slow the master's DMG down too and that's a bother as well. One of the main things keeping PUP down last I knew was the JA delay, all those Maneuvers being spammed constantly, same with DNC & it's steps, getting rid of that delay in the middle of every action would go a long way in helping the jobs that not only need use their JAs for themselves but keep an eye and use abilities for their pets who need so much attention. Basically, in my opinion we should add JA delay to that list as well.

Also, you guys are kind of nitpicking with the post, lol. We all know rng type jobs have s safer distance compared to other jobs; even when there were not the number one choice. However, i ask you, what should they do about rng distance advantage? I am fine with it personally; i see other jobs get into delve parties etc; i was strictly talking about dd capabilities. If it is as bad as this, idk what to tell non-rangers, lol. From what ive seen, just heal them, unless they get one-shotted by something. I have seen dds handle endgame crap fine.

I don't mean to be nitpicking it, but really if you do any of the new Delves from what I've seen melees are getting destroyed, the same thing goes with the Merit Point fights, melees get absolutely crushed by their DMG. The only way melees really can take on AAs right now is through shadows and that's not a perfect solution for many reasons and the most important of which is that some TP moves either wipe all shadows or completely ignore them. If anything I would say make it easier to survive as a front line job, increase HP, increase DEF, decrease DMG, something, I mean right now the reason I see RNG as prefered over other jobs isn't because it's a better DD in all of these different instances necessarily but it's because that's the 1 job that doesn't have to be up close to do it's job and can now days get around it's hate issue fairly easily.

Unless melees can start to survive on the front lines though it won't matter how much damage they're popping out, and I'll be honest, for now there's not a whole lot that can be done, doing AAs on Very Hard with melees easily results in a number of 1 shots from WSs, especially MR who spams Cloudsplitter which ignores shadows outright. I've yet to do Tenzen on VD but I know his SC ignores shadows and he can spam it over, and over, and over again, which means it's either Scherzo or death.

[Mitruya]

I think another issue that needs to be looked at for all pet jobs, or all jobs in general, is still the large issue of JA delay. Fix BST pets, Automatons, and so on however you wish but when the master is standing there a full 2 seconds doing nothing because he had to throw a treat to his pet, call a new one, or tell it to stop being stupid and use it's TP, it's starting to slow the master's DMG down too and that's a bother as well. One of the main things keeping PUP down last I knew was the JA delay, all those Maneuvers being spammed constantly, same with DNC & it's steps, getting rid of that delay in the middle of every action would go a long way in helping the jobs that not only need use their JAs for themselves but keep an eye and use abilities for their pets who need so much attention. Basically, in my opinion we should add JA delay to that list as well.

Or perhaps a simple fix would be to extend the duration of said JAs - maneuvers, steps, Angon, etc. then we don't have to constantly spam the JA during dps time. I was disappointed that so far the reforge sets don't offer duration boosts, maybe reforged Empyrean could have that? Or with the new job points system? (there better be more ways to get JPs on unwanted jobs though ...)
I think I did include the issue of JA delay in my list in an earlier post but no harm reiterating that point.

I agree also that anything not a PLD or a job that can attack from a distance is shit out of luck right now. In cases like that, I wish my Sharpshot buddy could also be one of those slots! But really, aren't pets meant to throw at things while the master stands back? It's a shame NONE of them are useful for the new content.