Please remove COP requirements on reforged relic and AF

[Demonjustin]

Then that makes you arguing for the sake of arguing.

No, it makes me arguing for the sake of others, rather than just myself. I have said multiple times and will continue to do so that this change would do nothing more than help new players, it would hurt current or older players in no way at all while making the game easier to access for newer players.

Now
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You must do this first to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You must do this first to upgrade your gear, no exceptions.

Proposed change.
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.

Tell me, what is bad about this change? How is this arguing for the sake of arguing when it would benefit others even if I myself will gain nothing from it?

[Demonjustin]

I did the expansion already too, if you read the thread. It means we care about the game going into the future for new players, and aren't just trying to skip a requirement like so many of you are trying so hard to believe.

Isn't it kinda funny how if the request is not selfish in at least some way that we are seemingly not allowed to make the request in the first place?

[Zarchery]

Tell me, what is bad about this change? How is this arguing for the sake of arguing when it would benefit others even if I myself will gain nothing from it?

I think what's bad about the change is that the hurdle it asks to remove is an insignificant one. Problem with this is that if you remove one insignificant hurdle, there will still be other insignificant hurdles that people don't like. Every time that someone doesn't like a task, there will be a demand to remove it, along with the justification "it is a good idea because it will attract new players".

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."

Someone in another thread likened this meme to the tendency of lobbyists in real life to advocate all sorts of legislation on the idea that it will create jobs. I like this comparison because it is so apt.

Crevox, who is such a big advocate of this, burnt out and quit after two months, during which, reading his posts, he hated just about every minute of the game. Exactly how profitable is it for Square Enix to bend over backwards to attract players like that? Even if the CoP requirements were removed, they'd just find some other insignificant thing to claim was "blocking" them and demand that be removed. Doing Walk of Echoes requires you to get through 5 quests in Wings of the Goddess, out of the 67 in the entire storyline. It takes a few hours at best. I helped a guy do this last month and he complained at every step of the way, and ragequit a month later.

I guess what I'm saying is that the CoP requirements may seem pointless, but they're sort of like application fees you pay or initiation rites you go through to join some clubs. They show you're serious. If you can't deal with the easy stuff, you're never gonna make it through the hard parts.

[Demonjustin]

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."

This is why this conversation is pointless.

[Crevox]

This is why this conversation is pointless.

It's not worth reading his posts. He just puts words in everyone's mouth and doesn't read anything anyone says. He wants to believe that all newbies just want to get rushed to end game, hate the game, and don't want to do anything. He wants to believe that so hard he will just keep posting it in every thread over and over and over. I've given up on him.

[Olor]

I think what's bad about the change is that the hurdle it asks to remove is an insignificant one. Problem with this is that if you remove one insignificant hurdle, there will still be other insignificant hurdles that people don't like. Every time that someone doesn't like a task, there will be a demand to remove it, along with the justification "it is a good idea because it will attract new players".

"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."

I'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic. I am not asking for any of these things. Please keep your criticism to the matter at hand. If other players request the things you are asking for, you are welcome to criticize those requests in the appropriate thread.

I'd appreciate it if you responded to my specific request or refrained from posting in this thread, thanks.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Some perspective:

When Treasures of Aht Urhgan was released, Square-Enix had to figure out what to do with the job-specific equipment for the three new jobs that came with the expansion. Rise of the Zilart's Dynamis and Chains of Promathia's Limbus addressed gear for the fifteen jobs released prior to Treasures of Aht Urhgan, but the idea was that new equipment for the new jobs should come from new content (e.g. relic-style equipment for the three new jobs would come from Einherjar).

Relic and artifact-upgrade equipment for these three jobs were only added to Dynamis and Limbus (respectively) in September of 2008, after the release of Wings of the Goddess(!). S-E addressed the long wait and the decision process to add new jobs to old content here.

Ultimately these jobs were added to old content because Status Quo is God, but I believe more specifically it was because Dynamis is a SACRED COW, then as now, while suddenly you had three (later five) jobs who had zero reason to put up with that nonsense (and build a relic weapon they can't equip?). And so these jobs had gear added to Dynamis (in a very delicate way that did not interfere with drops for the older 15 jobs, because SACRED COW), even though other prospective alternatives events like Salvage and Nyzul Isul Investigation never wanted for participation. Drops were added to Limbus as an afterthought, mostly to avoid the appearance of special treatment to Dynamis.

(Note, for example, the Imperial Standing equipment that can only be equipped by the then-new jobs.)

It is only now, five years later, that S-E decided that it was silly to keep forcing new jobs to go through old content.

My point: to those who insist that getting Limbus access to even simply be able to skip over AF+1 is "sacred tradition" that shan't be modified for any reason on pain of death, for at least five jobs it was never supposed to be that way. It was originally a tactless kludge aimed at avoiding the kinds of butthurt we see today over RME weapons, and I personally fail to see why newer players should continue to be punished for the sensibilities of older players.

[Karbuncle]

At best the argument is just guess work and conjecture. You have no evidence of support that It was not suppose to be added to those areas or that the devs did it simply cause "Dynamis Ex Machina". I'll admit theres some chance they just did it because it'd be easier or to make sure no one would complain those jobs got relic easier/harder, but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis. It does have some reason behind it but stating it as solid or fact is just off.

Still, I'm not claiming it should stay because its a right of passage, I'm saying it should stay because its already stupidly easy to complete CoP, and theres more than just AF to benefit from it. I again say I would not be strictly opposed to the change, but nothing about beating CoP requires any hardcore level of time devotion, even at the minimilast of plays times it can be completed within a week or so, its the most reasonably accessible and easy storyline with the biggest payoff.

The rewards are laid out, and it shouldn't be cut from the process simply because one doesn't want to have to bother with it. I will say Ziygs that you probably come closes to a reasonable reason why it should be changed, although you state it in a profoundly exaggerated way, but I imagine you did so with purpose.

Anyway, I feel I am at odds with myself, I'm finding it difficult to determine why exactly i side against the idea. I think the only reason I write to oppose such an idea is because I dislike people who want to skip to the end jumping over all the obstacles others have done just because they want the reward without the work. Its not like all of us skipped CoP, and most of is did it back when it could take months.

If it still took months to complete, I'd be standing here saying "sh*t needs to change", but its doesn't, and I'm not, because the constant CoP nerfs make it a menial task at best and the rewards are still great.

so while CoP, old it may be, irrelevant it is not. Just because its not Delve doesn't mean its dead content, While most of the rewards come from the completion of the Story-line, like Rajas ring and the Tie-in RoTZ/CoP Fight earring, those items are still useful to a 99 player in delve gear, making them as relevant as any of the current content.

We'll see how this turns out, It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.

[Demonjustin]

It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.

Just want to say. While I do somewhat agree that it's unlikely they remove it, they really didn't specifically place the CoP restriction on these pieces of gear, they attached the old Limbus NPC to the new Reforged NPC which by chain, requires CoP to be completed to talk to the Reforged NPC. So while they did place the restriction, they didn't do it directly, and since that's the case I feel like it's more likely that they simply remove the restriction since as you said it wouldn't be the first time they removed restrictions on old content.

[Karbuncle]

I was considering mentioning that as a possibilty to be honest, But I decided it would be best to tackle later. They did add an entirely new NPC for the Relic/AF Reforging, one would think if they wanted too, they could of detached her from AF Upgrades, but they didn't, they added her to the AF upgrade NPC likely for a reason.

But this is simply me assuming if they wasted time adding an entirely new NPC for the sole purpose of Reforging AF/Relic, they could have detached her from CoP if they so wanted.