I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts

[Afania]

If the knowledge that there is a source of information that can provide you with the location of your goal is enough to sway people to using the wiki rather than not then wiki would be used. You are making it sound as though no choice is given which is not the case, you can access it, thus, you can use it. That is like saying that now that Trust exists all low-man content will be much harder to do, this is due to the fact now every player can equate to 4 when soloing and thus, low-man content will be assumed to always include at least 4 people, with at very least 1 player. This however is not the case, simply because SE would give us a Quest Log or Marker system does not instantly mean that quest dialog would not be meaningful, rather the opposite. They try to work the story into everything they do in this game for the most part which means for us to get this info and put it in our log, we would need to get the info first, this would come from the NPC Dialog.

It seems to me what you are saying in the long run is that people have no self control when presented with an in-game option to obtain this information via a Log or Markers, but when they have to use Wiki, they can prevent themselves from using it without an issue.

Personally I only use wiki if I'm really stuck, but if the game tell me where to go next, I wouldn't turn it off because it's in game.

I consider reading wiki cheating(I'm not the only gamer with such POV), I like to play the game as intended, and often try to not to rely on online guide. But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you really think hand-holding on the map with ! doesn't affect NPC dialogue/map placement in game design.

If your mom ask you to retrieve 3 apples
"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"

"Where are the apples?"

"One is under the white cupboard, another one is in the sink, there's one more that's probably in the garbage can"

"Yikes!"

This is more like a conversation irl, something that'd happen without ! on the map.

If you're in a game, it'd be like

"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"

"Ok(clicks ok)"

Then ! pop on the map and you just have to follow that !.

There's no need to explain where are the apples because of ! on the map, so the game usually doesn't explain it and just rely on ! most of the time. I've notice this a lot in Skyrim, a game I've been playing recently and heavily rely on ! on the map. The NPC/in game rarely offer extra info on where to go just because ! exists. But in earlier TES games they'd offer more hint because you need hint to continue.

Further more, there's no reason not to use a in game help if it's there. I like to play the game as intended, having a ! on the map and use it is playing as intended, it just doesn't offer the same experience if the game force the player to read the text to find out where to go next.

It's not a "which is better" arguement, it's a "whether it offers same playing experience or not" arguement. Find out where to go via ! or find out where to go by reading dialogue isn't the same playing experience.

You don't think so, I do. It also depends on situations. If the person you know who sold his property had enough money from doing so that they could get by until the time of which they completed the movie, that is one thing, but if they are literally losing everything they have by selling it so they can try to make a movie and end up literally living on the street due to that choice until they finish it, then they are an idiot. I do not think my value is superior, I think logically no one can make that choice and be a smart person, it is simply not a good choice to gamble with your life and that is basically what you are doing in such a situation, gambling with your life that you will succeed in your goal after having given everything up, if you fail, you have nothing, if you succeed, you have your dream, but its still a gamble. As I said before as well the reason why you are an idiot for picking that option is because if you stuck with what you have you can still achieve your goals, just not as quickly.

I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.

No matter which option you'd pick, some people are willing to overcome the obstacles if the goal is attractive. That's the whole point(and it's been like that for hundreds and hundreds of years). If I'm not interested in making the film, why'd I choose to be broke as fuck? If I'm not interested in any goal in a game, why'd I return and face the obstacles? The goal doesn't weight more than the obstacles, may as well ask the dev to give goals more weight, instead of changing the obstacles. You CAN reduce the obstacles and maybe more would come, but I hightly doubt it's going to last long.

Allow me to use a poor in-game example of what I am trying to get across.

If someone right now needs Tojil's KI so that they can go buy their items from him, they have Plasm, just need the KI so they can get that gear they really want, and right now they have only 5 friends willing to help them, can get no one to join from shouts, and little gil. Now, they can do 1 of 2 things, either try desperately to low-man it, giving up their gil and possibly even selling some of their gear to buy some Beads the item to make the KI they need to enter the fight, all in hopes that they win that run. The second choice is that they wait, hold onto their items, and be patient, farming gil and improving where they can for now without that gear as well as practicing on outside NMs, then, after the update coming this month, they can do the 6-man version of Delve with their friends and try to get their win that way. Path A presents a chance at victory, but a rushing and foolhardy choice that if failed, could set them back even further than if they had just waited to achieve their goal. Path be present a more slow and steady choice which can pay off in the long run, and in the end will not take nearly as much away from them if they fail.

To me, I see A as foolish, and B as a more intelligent answer. That is my opinion, and I can make my own judgements on these actions, that is my choice. By making such a judgement though I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, I am stating how I see these things, and in all honesty, I think most people would agree that B is the better of the two, while A is not, because in reality its more of a 'slow and steady wins the race' mentality, which is often actually the better of the two in things, though admittedly not always, many variables can change that and make A clearly better.

I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.

You say 2 hours a day isn't the real reason, and this game is playable with 2 hours of playtime a day. This is true, but, ask yourself how true it is for someone who is behind rather than on par with the game. You and I may be able to make progress in 2 hours, sure, but I have a Relic and an Empyrean and am working on a Mythic, you a Mythic, we both have done Endgame events such as Delve quite a bit, we both have well geared jobs, we both have been playing a long time, and we both have been basically caught up to content for some time as well. In 2 hours, we can easily find people we need to do something or find something to do because we know people, we know the game, and we know what needs to be done. All of these things are vastly different than what he would face if he returned.

To explain the state of his character would be difficult but I will do my best real quick. He had 3 level 75s, SAM, MNK, and DRG, he also had somewhat decent gear for those jobs at their level, his BLU is at around 50 but he loved the job and never got his AF due to the whole Staging Point thing which he could never finish due to Imps. He had done rank missions up to rank 5, never getting rank 6 due to lack of interest in Dynamis, he had no CoP progress or any other expansion progress really, he has probably around 500k last I knew, he never broke a mil and sold a lot of stuff before he left the game last time. I bring all this up because it is a lot of things he would be expected to do in the game today. If he came back and tried to gear up his BLU, which is the job he said he would most likely level upon his return if he returned in the future, he would need to finish CoP for Rajas, RotZ for Suppanomimi, and get a few other standard pieces of gear such as things from Bayld or Sparks.

There would be a ton of work to do in order to get to where most players are at, and you are talking about 2 hours a day to do all of this. Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend 2 hours of their day when they are off just so they can attempt to catch up on a game? Just because he doesn't isn't a sign he doesn't want to play, but rather it can also be a sign that he just doesn't want to have to spend his time off trying to catch up with people so that he can play the game with people again.

I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).

At one point of time I play FFXI for about 2hr a day or less too, and not really in a position to make a Mythic, because it REALLY is going to take forever if you don't play a lot. But I really, really want a Mythic, so I ended up spent 3+ years on one. I'm not more hardcore than any of your casual friends, but I want one, so I can overcome the obstacles.

No really, most of the goals are doable, but you really have to want it bad. I can totally understand why your friend isn't coming back though. I probably won't return if I'm stuck at 75 and no real goal in this game to spend 2hr a day playing. Even if I go back I may not find the game interesting enough to stuck with it for 3 more years.

That's the real reason why I defend for long term goal, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I know quite a bit of people, including myself, stick around because of the long term goal. There are plenty of games out there with better quality of life when playing the game, I can't play any of them for more than 2 months because no goals are interesting.

Will he come back if he just handed a max lv character with all missions done so he can play with other people? Maybe. But it's just a shallow gameplay with no souls.....I never reach max lv in WoW, if someone want to hand me a max lv WoW character I'd probably give it a try, but it's just a shallow gameplay with zero journey experience that I don't see how I can stick for more than 3 days. There are no meaning, no backstory nor emotional attachment behind a character that's ready for everything build by someone else. Hand every noob/returning player a max lv character and remove the journey on the way toward the goal so they can play the game do more harm than good in the long run.

[Demonjustin]

Personally I only use wiki if I'm really stuck, but if the game tell me where to go next, I wouldn't turn it off because it's in game.

So it can't be in the game because otherwise you would use it, even though you won't use a Wiki. I... I don't really know what to say to that, really, no words, not because of it being a good answer, but I mean I just don't know how to reply to the idea that you won't use Wiki because its outside of the game and yet if it were in the game you would feel obligated to use it and thus it is hand-holding whereas the current experience apparently is not.

I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.

I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.

You're giving a completely unrealistic example then. You are giving examples where the person would have to know the future and be guaranteed a success or a definite outcome before they even began and made their choice, which is not possible in real life or in the game.

I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).

This is what I have been trying to get across to some extent, the obstacles in the way are what make the required motivation to achieve that goal greater than the motivation he has to achieve it. Were the restrictions in the game lighter and the time needed to catch up shorter, the chances of his return would be greater. Thus, if changes were made to remove obstacles, it stands to reason that you would see more people playing and/or returning due to the fact they can catch up more easily, and thus, enjoy the game much more quickly during their spare time.

[Lithera]

I'm not sure what's so "disturbed" about, every person have full control of their life, and choose what's important to them. Some value work over family, some value family over work. Some value accomplishment in a hobby(video game/making a film/owning a company). I have no issue with others trying to reach their goal, but I don't think the goal would value the same if the obstacles aren't the same.

Every choice you make, you make a sacrifice. If you choose to work overtime for more money and better position, you sacrifice your health and your family. Everyday when you make a choice to do "something", you always ended up sacrificing something else for it.

Do I sacrificed something for video games? I'd be lying if I say no, after all, it's thousands of hr in my life gone, spent on video games. But so do you, and everyone else who plays any video game title. Even if you spent only 30hr in your entire life on video game, it's still a sacrifice, just that the sacrifice is smaller.

It is disturbing because it is ignoring the last thing SE says to us right before we hit enter. To NOT ignore your family, health, or your job. They don't want their players to become someone who looks like they haven't literally moved off the couch in days. Also most people work over time not because they value their work more than their family. They do it so maybe they can afford a better place to live in, go on a really nice trip with the family because they haven't been able to in a long while, or to go and buy that someone in their life that be their spouse, child, parent, or even a friend that really could use a reaaaly good item to help their dream or job be accomplished better or faster. Maybe they do it so their kid can go to college.

Though it seems to you that it is always going to be one or the other in game or not. Also there are times when you do have the ! on your screen and still have trouble finding the damn thing. Specially if the map doesn't say do a good job with height. Even if it does it still might take a very small amount of time to realize it is at the top of a building or maybe in a building right next to it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I consider reading wiki cheating(I'm not the only gamer with such POV)

That's certainly not representative of the general player population.

I like to play the game as intended

Square-Enix has linked to "Community Sites," including those dedicated to "Data & Strategies" since at least February of 2004. Those links have included a wiki since at least September of 2006, "recommended" since at least October of 2006. One wiki or another has been a "Premier Site" since at least March of 2007. Where the hell have you been?

What you think is "intended" and what Square-Enix clearly actually intends are two very different things.

But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.

So we must all suffer because of your lack of willpower?

[Afania]

That's certainly not representative of the general player population.

I've met players that have to read strategy guide/wiki to play games, and I've met players refuse to touch strategy guide no matter what.

There are different kind of players, but idk what type of player are "general player population"

So we must all suffer because of your lack of willpower?

It has nothing to do with willpower, if you read previous examples.

It is disturbing because it is ignoring the last thing SE says to us right before we hit enter. To NOT ignore your family, health, or your job. They don't want their players to become someone who looks like they haven't literally moved off the couch in days. Also most people work over time not because they value their work more than their family. They do it so maybe they can afford a better place to live in, go on a really nice trip with the family because they haven't been able to in a long while, or to go and buy that someone in their life that be their spouse, child, parent, or even a friend that really could use a reaaaly good item to help their dream or job be accomplished better or faster. Maybe they do it so their kid can go to college.

Though it seems to you that it is always going to be one or the other in game or not. Also there are times when you do have the ! on your screen and still have trouble finding the damn thing. Specially if the map doesn't say do a good job with height. Even if it does it still might take a very small amount of time to realize it is at the top of a building or maybe in a building right next to it.

Maybe that's YOUR reason to work overtime, but I know quite a lot of ppl work overtime for different reasons. The term workaholic exist for a reason. My manager has no kids(basically no real reason to work overtime), he doesn't get overtime pay and he go home at 10pm everyday starting at 9am.

Also if you're "disturbed" because of someone else's value is different from your's, you'd be disturbed a lot. There are a lot of ppl sacrifice family/health/work for another hobby or goal(not necessary video game, but many different hobby too), because they think the sacrifice is worth it. If you're going to feel "disbrubed" about someone else's way of living, there's endless disturbance waiting for you.

So it can't be in the game because otherwise you would use it, even though you won't use a Wiki. I... I don't really know what to say to that, really, no words, not because of it being a good answer, but I mean I just don't know how to reply to the idea that you won't use Wiki because its outside of the game and yet if it were in the game you would feel obligated to use it and thus it is hand-holding whereas the current experience apparently is not.

I don't feel "obligated" to use it, a game with ! by design is there for you to use, a wiki is not. What's so hard to understand about it? Draylo stated he play the game as intended pages back.

I even give you damn conversation example about how the game design would be different with a ! on the map. So you study game design but you can't understand the difference? If a game has no ! on the map, do you design conversation and environment the same way as having a ! on the map? No.

[Lithera]

Yes there is and only when someone comes up with a good counter to your all or nothing pov you still go back to having everyone else is wrong because to you EVERYONE chooses one thing or another. You ask others to stop speaking for everyone else yet you do the same thing and treat it as absolute end all be all. That there are no other reasons or ways to do something except the examples you give. I am not disturbed by a person tossing everything else just to complete something but feel sorry that said person. Why, because they couldn't find a way to get to w/e they wanted without causing great loss in the rest of their lives.

Let's use the Olympics as an example to you the only people who should win medals would be Russians or Chinese because they literally eat, sleep, breath their sport. They start it when they're three, they get into the best training programs or schools, they get tutors for school, instead of going to the mall to hang out with friends they're training. Yet we all know this isn't true or people from other countries would never see the medals podium.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

There are different kind of players, but idk what type of player are "general player population"

The player population that S-E is trying to foster and cater to by having their website linking to strategy sites and having their GM's promote them.

Even if I grant you that "most players" aren't like that, it's certainly what S-E wants most players to be like, which gets back to the "intent" you were so recently in favor of following.

[bungiefanNA]

Hmm... I don't think Final Fantasy XIV has that "don't neglect your life" warning anywhere when logging in.

[Mirage]

because that game doesn't have as many things that are designed to suck the life out of you

[Demonjustin]

Square-Enix has linked to "Community Sites," including those dedicated to "Data & Strategies" since at least February of 2004. Those links have included a wiki since at least September of 2006, "recommended" since at least October of 2006. One wiki or another has been a "Premier Site" since at least March of 2007. Where the hell have you been?

What you think is "intended" and what Square-Enix clearly actually intends are two very different things.

I would also like to point out that GMs will often point you toward Wiki when asking about issues with the game or quests which do not allow you to proceed.