Balsam Staff

[Mahoro]

Played since NA launch, and I'll stand by my statement and raise you another:

RMT bots auto-pulling Argus is not the same as an ally of 18 people with (i) tricked-out MNKs with ACC builds and T1-T5 Delve gear, (ii) Daurdabla BRDs, (iii) SCH/BLMs with tweaked Stun sets, (iv) WHM's who are familiar enough with mob attacks to know what to Erase or -na based on the mob's TP move, (v) GEO's with capped Skill, (vi) members who actually know how to swap BRDs and CORs, (vii) an Ochain PLD, (viii) BRD's and COR's who can keep up Haste on designated melee, and (ix) probably a dozen more things that I can't be arsed to list.

If RMT's go to all the above trouble to "control the market" on items that are already selling for less than 10M per server, then again: they DESERVE to do so.

[Secondplanet]

Played since NA launch, and I'll stand by my statement and raise you another:

RMT bots auto-pulling Argus is not the same as an ally of 18 people with (i) tricked-out MNKs with ACC builds and T1-T5 Delve gear, (ii) Daurdabla BRDs, (iii) SCH/BLMs with tweaked Stun sets, (iv) WHM's who are familiar enough with mob attacks to know what to Erase or -na based on the mob's TP move, (v) GEO's with capped Skill, (vi) members who actually know how to swap BRDs and CORs, (vii) an Ochain PLD, (viii) BRD's and COR's who can keep up Haste on designated melee, and (ix) probably a dozen more things that I can't be arsed to list.

If RMT's go to all the above trouble to "control the market" on items that are already selling for less than 10M per server, then again: they DESERVE to do so.

I really have to call in to question that you have been playing since release, How could you have not known about all those bots that took over the game before the MASSIVE banhammer took effect. Bots can do anything you can do but better, as for gear, its nothing for an alliance to get enough to make a mere relic or harp in a matter of weeks. They could get a full alliance going in about a month easily. As for skills, their worth almost nothing now since everyone seems to use skill bots......

And have you ever actually seen bot programs fight? They are like clock work, its like OMG yellow health, opps it was cured before it actually went yellow on the screen cause the bots can read the code before it is visually displayed.

[Babekeke]

I really have to call in to question that you have been playing since release, How could you have not known about all those bots that took over the game before the MASSIVE banhammer took effect. Bots can do anything you can do but better, as for gear, its nothing for an alliance to get enough to make a mere relic or harp in a matter of weeks. They could get a full alliance going in about a month easily. As for skills, their worth almost nothing now since everyone seems to use skill bots......

And have you ever actually seen bot programs fight? They are like clock work, its like OMG yellow health, opps it was cured before it actually went yellow on the screen cause the bots can read the code before it is visually displayed.

Yeah you've either never done delve, or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to 'bots' fighting.

It's not efficient for RMT to gear up to do delve, as the gear required (r/m/e), and all the spells (Geo can cost several million gil), plus all the time that could have been spent making gil lost to doing trials (for stun staff for SCHs).

The only way they would get a hold of the market on these is by botting the AH and bumping the prices up.

[Archades]

I remember when ppl were saying rmts were not able to do sky, dynamis and such. then they did. if there is a market they can get into they will. but that was back when SE didn't care. so to say that RMT cant just because its difficult is not enough to stop em. Ill find it funny though that theyll do event w/o the requirement the player base puts on the event.

[Fermion]

It's not efficient for RMT to gear up to do delve, as the gear required (r/m/e), and all the spells (Geo can cost several million gil), plus all the time that could have been spent making gil lost to doing trials (for stun staff for SCHs).

I don't think you're aware of how well bots can execute all their various commands.

But speaking of SCHs stunning, most strategies resort on stun-locking. Bots will never miss a stun...never. Curing comes instantly, status effects are removed before the message even comes up that you have one. Buffs are up 100%. They flawlessly do whatever they're programmed to do. It really is impressive. The thing with bot accounts is that they use the best and most obvious cheats. They aren't emotionally connected to their character (no fear of perma-ban), which besides morals, is what keeps most people from going all out hackmode.

RMT bots auto-pulling Argus is not the same as an ally of 18 people with (i) tricked-out MNKs with ACC builds and T1-T5 Delve gear, (ii) Daurdabla BRDs, (iii) SCH/BLMs with tweaked Stun sets, (iv) WHM's who are familiar enough with mob attacks to know what to Erase or -na based on the mob's TP move, (v) GEO's with capped Skill, (vi) members who actually know how to swap BRDs and CORs, (vii) an Ochain PLD, (viii) BRD's and COR's who can keep up Haste on designated melee, and (ix) probably a dozen more things that I can't be arsed to list.

People seem to confuse difficulty with inaccessibility . Buff > Stun > Zerg. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. There is no action you mentioned there that a player can do faster than a program. As for the gear, assuming that RMT would be doing this for a living, I'm pretty sure they'd spend time to do the research.

RMT have a rep of being idiots. It's not so much the RMTs personally, that I worry about. It's the hacks and programs that concern me. Especially since Delve has virtually no accessibility limitations. Once they take a little while to get to the point where they can beat it once (won't take as long as you think, with cheats doing the heavy lifting), they'll spam it 24/7, literally.

[Mahoro]

As a preliminary matter, many of the programs you cite are already being utilized by linkshells that regularly clear this content, and the mats have been flooding the market and tanking in price.

As a secondary matter, difficulty and inaccessibility are sometimes conflated more than you'd expect. It's not an either/or, black and white proposition.

As a tertiary matter, in the off chance that my comments are further misinterpreted by you or Secondplanet, I'll say it again using fewer non-exhaustive lists:

Nowhere in my posts did I say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for bots or programs to automate a Delve Boss fight. You could argue some players largely do it now. However, based on the history of the game and the types of botting behavior RMT have demonstrated in the past, it is UNLIKELY that they will set something up to simulate the degree of timing and coordination required in a typical Delve Boss fight. That being said (and here is the part Secondplanet himself has failed to glean while making judgments about what I do or do not know):

IF the RMT's put in ALL THE UPFRONT WORK to gear each and every one of the jobs required in a Boss fight cited above, work that most players don't want to do now mind you, all in the hopes of monopolizing a "market" that is already tanking due to the players themselves who are spamming and putting the mats up for sale, then they DESERVE to do so. Capitalism, yo.

[Yinnyth]

But speaking of SCHs stunning, most strategies resort on stun-locking. Bots will never miss a stun...never. Curing comes instantly, status effects are removed before the message even comes up that you have one. Buffs are up 100%. They flawlessly do whatever they're programmed to do. It really is impressive. The thing with bot accounts is that they use the best and most obvious cheats. They aren't emotionally connected to their character (no fear of perma-ban), which besides morals, is what keeps most people from going all out hackmode.

The stun bots would need to communicate with one another to prepare for contingency plans. Delve NMs spam WSs incessantly while they're being zerged. What happens if one bot stuns thundaga IV, the other stuns calcifying mist immediately after and tutewehiwehi decides to use calcifying mist while both stuns are still down? The RDM bot would need to recognize that both stuns are down and cover for it.

A poorly programmed bot would reach the stun cap on delve bosses well before the DD bots could kill it. You have to know what does and does not need to be stunned, and weigh these decisions in real time. Is it worth stunning Tojil's sleepga on the melees while his aura is up? No. Is it worth stunning his sleepga during the pull? Yes.

Cure bots would also need to be well programmed to not only avoid wasting MP (because MP is a large issue on delve bosses... even with 99 gjallarhorn ballads), but to anticipate important cures. Dakuwaqa always uses marine mayhem after he puts his aura up. A good whm will have their curaga land on their melees right after marine mayhem goes off because it's an easily predictable thing, and you don't want your melees killing themselves on the ice spikes.

When's the last time you saw a bot do anything which requires moving? The uragnite puts up a doom aura that you have to run away from, then run back in.

In short, the level of complexity these bots would require in order to be successful in delve is not impossible, no. But the sheer cost of developing the software necessary to create a bot which beats delve would not net enough profit to justify creating it in the first place, to say nothing of tweaking and maintaining it as patches add new gear and new abilities.

[FrankReynolds]

I think they will just keep doing what they do now. Perform simple repeatable tasks like fishing, farming NPC-able items and doing cleave type stuff on 1,000,000 characters at a time instead of leveling and gearing and networking a leet team of bots.

People will just buy the wins / gear from real players.