Job Adjustments for the Next Version Update

[Losie]

That's what I got out of it. they could have just said "Wyverns will scale with the DRG's weapon damage" and it would have saved the CMs two pages worth of reading.

Alternatively people could not flip out by assuming the worst and post pages of why it won't work despite misunderstanding and making wild assumptions, but hey..

[Duelle]

Alternatively people could not flip out by assuming the worst

You must be new here... >.>

Translation: The Tanaka Era has conditioned pretty much everyone that has played this game since RotZ to expect the worst when the developers make a change, as while promising and pretty-sounding, there would tend to always be some boneheaded implementation that would ruin the whole thing.

[Hawklaser]

Alternatively people could not flip out by assuming the worst and post pages of why it won't work despite misunderstanding and making wild assumptions, but hey..

Difference between when they say "Addition of polearms that have stats to increase the parameters of wyverns", vs saying they will be allowing your lance to adjust the stats of your wvyern. First one causes Pet: effects being on weapons to jump to mind while the other does not cause that as much, though would still get some of the same feedback because with Pet: effect gear already being in the game that could be what was coming. All in how the news is delivered.

Back to the all the adjustments, while this may solve some of DRG's wyvern scalability, PUP, SMN, and BST is still going to have issues unless they have plans to consistently add new grips, animators and jugs. So for grips, see one of two things happening either they become situationally used or they will be the only one used. And as for the Jugs, unless they are special Rare/Ex ones that don't get used up, every BST is going to have immediate access to them, and there will be a huge demand for them. With high demand, can only hope supply will be able to keep up otherwise prices are either going to be very high or will struggle with trying to get them unless you make your own. And when Content Level goes up again, end up back at square one.

[Theytak]

Greetings everyone (and happy Friday!),

I'd like to follow up a bit about the planned wyvern enhancements for dragoon.

To give a simpler idea of what we have planned, by equipping a high content level weapon, we are envisioning that the stats of your wyvern also increase along with you. It's somewhat close to what a player mentioned about making it so your wyverns damage value, delay, attack, and defense increase based on your own values.

Currently there are pieces of equipment that have pet enhancing stats and by equipping them they influence your pet's strength (for example, there are already polearms in existence that enhance wyverns); however, this is not what we will be doing this time with polearms. With that said, it'll help a lot if you think of this as the polearms that are to be introduced from here on out will allow you enhance your wyvern, and the enhancements will not only increase specific stats. (We will be making it possible to enhance your wyverns after we implement the RME revamps.)

Also, the reason we didn't choose grips was because there are varieties of strong pieces of equipment that can be selected based on the situation, and if we were to make these enhance wyverns, it would be difficult to choose other options.

With that said, we felt it would be best for dragoons to be able to enhance their wyverns with their weapons.

Mmmm. I'll need to hear from you that this is also being applied to bst, pup, and smn, and then get a much more concrete explanation of just what it is you plan on doing, before I can really judge it. Thus, I'm going to stand by what I said before,

Fixing pets by adding new, pet enhancing gear is not the correct answer. It's no different than applying a band-aid to someone who's in need of surgery, and expecting the band-aid to somehow magically fix the problem. The only difference this little clarification gives, from my perspective, is that we'd be getting one of those cool cartoon-character band-aids, rather than a boring one.

not gonna quote Theytak, too long. I agree with most everything you said, EXCEPT the part about pup being designed with the 6-man party playstyle in mind. I think the vision from the get go was as another soloer job, using a different mechanism than bst. It was just poorly executed which is why we are only overcoming-to an extent-"lolpup" after all these years.

That's not true. PUP was a horrible soloer at first. It didn't have the gear, or the resources, to reliably solo. The only reason people made it work was through grit, and because we had no other choice. PUP has become a soloing powerhouse, but that's no different than NIN becoming a tank, or bst becoming a soloer (bst wasn't intended to solo either, they were just damn good at it)

The other player issue is the one track mind. You know, the "official" strategy people. Yes, strategy x has been shown to work. Problem is, y-n also work, but noone will do them because they aren't x. And noone will try to make o-w work, even though they may very well work with a bit of fine-tuning. That's how jobs just die in this game. Example, could paladin tank in Aby? yeah-if the other players didn't try to break records on every swing/cast. But they did, so Zerg killed pld. That's why as much as I love my new rune I was kind of sorry to see it introduced-what's the use of a new tank when all content is Zerg Uber Alles? So yeah, it's levelled and I'm going to keep playing it because I like the style, but I'm resigned to its primary use being to solo beastman/mob mage types, and the few occasions I can talk my friends into letting me play something besides thf or brd.

I'd like to remind you that I'm one of those "official" strategy people. The reason other methods aren't used isn't because people don't know how to do them, or don't want to do them, but because they're not remotely as effective or efficient as the tried and true melee zerg. Sure, method x, y, and z might all be able to kill the NM, but when the key difference between them is that method x achieves the same results as method y in a third the time, and method z with half the people, it's clear that method x is the superior choice, and doing either y or z is a waste of both your, and everyone else's, valuable time. That said, the main reason tanking died was more that tanks couldn't even hope to try and hold hate in a zerg situation. If they could, which SEis slowly working them back towards, that would only make zerging even better.

[Glamdring]

...or don't want to do them..., That said, the main reason tanking died was more that tanks couldn't even hope to try and hold hate in a zerg situation. If they could, which SEis slowly working them back towards, that would only make zerging even better.

Didn't quote the part about soloing, I still hold to my opinion pup was meant as a soloer, I just think they did a piss-poor job on the roll out. The fact that some people could solo despite that is really more a testament to their ability in the face of massive design/implementation flaws-face it pup was rolled out with the the auto meant to deal the damage and the player tanking, in essentially mage gear. That's not my idea of fun and why I didn't pick up the job until Aby.

As to the "official" strategy thing, I left the relevant part. See, there's my beef, it's not that it doesn't work, it's that people don't WANT to do the alt tactics. Yes, they are probably slower, BUT they allow players to play on the jobs they prefer (for the most part) instead of being forced into jobs they don't like because strategy "x" requires that build. That is why jobs die. I've seen you over in the rdm discussions so I'm positive you know what I'm talking about. Lest we forget, the primary reason for playing a GAME is to have fun, if you aren't enjoying the job you are pigeonholed into the fun part is lost, so you are left with a secondary reason to play, i.e. I do like to help my friends which is why I still roll out my brd or thf as needed even though I prefer my other jobs.

The tank thing, I know they are FINALLY working on it, but waiting this long was a MASSIVE screw-up. Pld is essentially dead now due to YEARS of this issue. It was designed essentially as a single-purpose job-to take hits so the rest of us don't have to-but even in its heyday holding hate wasn't an absolute, the players around it had to play smart, and yes, that meant holding back at times until the pld (with or without a cooperative thf) could reestablish their place at the top of the hate list. Even moreso for nin which didn't have inate hate building tools the way pld and war do. Rune is even worse, we have Flash... and? We're going to be dependent on our DD output-GS doesn't suck, but that means we have to haste almost exclusively in our gear builds and with the choices out there that means our weak physical def is going to suffer since the haste gear for the most part is on bad defensive pieces. And the other prob is that all the melee DD are also hasted out the wazoo so we still will lag on damage-generated enmity. They are going to need to beef our enmity from JA, probably the runes and wards if they are serious about us ever tanking. Still, the fact they are TRYING to bring back legitimate tanks will be a help and well received by our nuking and ranger friends that have been absent from the DD table for too long...

I still think a thf is going to be mandatory now for hate control instead of just for building TH IF they can manage to revive tanking at all, looking at the new weaps numbers I have doubts about tanks being able to try to hold hate in the face of that kind of Zerg, or nukes being able to keep up for that matter. Too bad, blm was a fun job...

[Aezelas]

Still, the fact they are TRYING to bring back legitimate tanks will be a help and well received by our nuking and ranger friends that have been absent from the DD table for too long...

I still think a thf is going to be mandatory now for hate control instead of just for building TH IF they can manage to revive tanking at all, looking at the new weaps numbers I have doubts about tanks being able to try to hold hate in the face of that kind of Zerg, or nukes being able to keep up for that matter. Too bad, blm was a fun job...

And then, they set a time limit on delve nms and we're going zergfest.
SE is going back and forth, and i'm not sure about what we can expect.
PLD still shines in Naakuals fights though.

[Glamdring]

And then, they set a time limit on delve nms and we're going zergfest.
SE is going back and forth, and i'm not sure about what we can expect.
PLD still shines in Naakuals fights though.

tell me about it. Honestly, what's wrong with being able to bring a nuke? I got alot of BLM buddies, they would like to be part of end-game as well. most of them didn't whine about having to lay off the big nukes until the mobs HP had been whittled down due to their squishyness. The few that were dropping AM from the opening a. aren't my buds, but b. I taught them to care about hate by TE>>DE on the blms that did it (they wanted hate, they got hate). And I liked the days when rng was interchangeable with a blm, even though I had neither job at the time. It was just fun watching them work, and they actually enjoyed working.

so SE doesn't want everything to be arrow/mana-burned? fine, the bosses should be immune to sleep/gravity/bind AND make it take more than 6 meteors to take them down, and strong enough to 1-shot a blm or rng. That means a balanced party, most likely with a tank.

[Chimerawizard]

@Glamdring

I knew a THF that would always try to do that to me @75. I laughed when on SMN because I would still never pull hate.
On BLM ... He just made sure I would not lose hate as long as I was alive. We joked about it in vent all the time trying to MPK each other. He gets charmed...kaboom, I do a MB and find out the closing WS was done with TA on me.
I manage to stay alive for more than a minute while tanking on BLM...get ready for Spikeflail . Well unless its Tiamat, then I just go afk while I wait to be finished getting eaten. (don't wanna piss off the rest of the group)