Fell Cleaves...

[Alhanelem]

I grasp that there are lazy people. However, earning enough gil to fell cleave your jobs up is super easy.

It's not super easy enough. I don't think you grasp just how lazy the typical buyer of gil is. They buy gil because they want to play the game but don't really want to play it. Also a perequisite for having a million plus gil to cleave your jobs is having at least 1 job leveled already. It is not easy for a new player to make a million gil. They certainly can't do it fast. It doesn't matter how easy you personally think something is, there will always be someone too lazy to do it. It wasn't exactly rare for someone who couldn't be bothered to play the game and pay someone else to play their character for them before cleaves existed.

It's not really for us to judge.

Except it is for SE to judge, and I will judge it too because it is obviously shady to me. I don't care if you get snowed in. You don't have to spend every second on FFXI continuously performing the same activity. That would be suspicious to anyone in this game.

The fact of the matter is that SE should be doing their due diligence to make sure they don't ban long time dedicated customers like him just so that they can stop joey the pink ninja from buying gil.

Except in systematically obvious cases that can easily be detected by a scanning system like RMT PWNER, the ban button is pressed by a person who looks at the case before making a call. They're giving due diligence, because, like you said, unless you hate money, you don't ban people from your game unless it's a flagrant violation that is likely to have a negative effect on other paying customers, either directly or indirectly through disrupting the economy with RMT.

[Fawkes]

All shouts are disruptive. Ban everyone who shouts.

[FrankReynolds]

It's not super easy enough. I don't think you grasp just how lazy the typical buyer of gil is. They buy gil because they want to play the game but don't really want to play it.

It doesn't matter how lazy the average gil buyer is. The cost of entry is low enough that 99.99% of legitimate players can afford it easily.

I'll repeat again. Read the words out loud and actually think about what is being said.

1 million gil is not a lot of gil. Only an idiot would suggest that anyone with 1 million gil is a gil buyer.

Go through the auction house. People pay millions of gil for items that give almost zero tangible benefit all day long. Why wouldn't they pay that money to save themselves from doing something they don't like? There are only a few plausible reasons. They like leveling, they have no money, they don't understand how it works or they have some BS moral conflict.

Also a perequisite for having a million plus gil to cleave your jobs is having at least 1 job leveled already. It is not easy for a new player to make a million gil.

This is a moot point as you cannot FC your first job to 99. You have to leave and do limit breaks every 5 levels. No one is doing that in a pay per hour party. Quit being intentionally obtuse.

and I will judge it too because it is obviously shady to me.

I think your insinuations and seemingly inside knowledge about gil buyers and their activities reeks of experience in gil buying yourself. I however am a fan of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing and an even bigger fan of "mind your own business" so I'm not gonna cheer on the ban bot and hope it gets you and I'm certainly not going to worry about what you do with your money. See, I don't need to see other people who aren't doing anything to me get banned in order to feel good about myself or my "Ethics".

I don't care if you get snowed in. You don't have to spend every second on FFXI continuously performing the same activity. That would be suspicious to anyone in this game.

Of course you don't care if I get snowed in. You seem to be the worlds biggest fan of bad things happening to other people. You're basically angry that someone else got to play more than you. He also spent upwards of 12 hours straight in a single day helping groups of people get through missions like CoP and ZM. Should he banned for that too? WTF do you care how he spends his time? Do you pay him or something? When did they put you in charge of regulating peoples time spent in game?

To be clear here, we are talking about a guy who was chatting in LS and talking on Xbox live the entire time. Not some robot running a pattern 24 hours a day.

Except in systematically obvious cases that can easily be detected by a scanning system like RMT PWNER, the ban button is pressed by a person who looks at the case before making a call. They're giving due diligence, because, like you said, unless you hate money, you don't ban people from your game unless it's a flagrant violation that is likely to have a negative effect on other paying customers, either directly or indirectly through disrupting the economy with RMT.

And how exactly would shouting in a city provide proof that Gil was exchanged for real life money? I'll give you a hint. It won't.

Face facts. You didn't like FC parties because it was a violation to your BS moral system and it infuriates you that other people don't see it that way. You know damn well that this has nothing to do with people being RMTs and everything to do with you just hating FC parties. Even if the RMTs had never touched them, you would probably still be in here rooting for SE to ban everyone who did them.

TLDR; Stop rooting for SE to ban everyone who doesn't play the game the way you think they should.

[Alhanelem]

I'll repeat again. Read the words out loud and actually think about what is being said.

I would do the same thing, but it would repeat in an endless loop; so this will be the last time.

1 million gil is not a lot to you, but it is a lot to new players, and no person just starting the game is going to make 1 million gil in any real hurry. Keep repeating it if you want, but the fact of the matter is, just because YOU can make X gil in Y time, doesn't mean other people can, or that other people see that as easy to accomplish. We could fight over this to the end of time. 1 million gil can't be made in 5 minutes or less solo (without a lot of luck e.g. getting a good drop from some NM), and if something takes longer than 5 minutes, there are people with too much money and too much laziness who will happily pay large (small, meduim, whatever the hell you want to call it) sums of gil for someone to do something for them. You will not convince me that most people shouting for cleaves at set regular intervals all day every day are not RMT nor that none of the people buying in are not gil buyers.

It does not matter how easy you think it is. There will be people too lazy to bother doing it.

Christ, there are people who will buy items off the auction house that are available from an NPC in the same city they're in for cheaper. People are willing to pay more just to avoid spending a small amount of time walking, because that would require EFFORT! There are people that are just THAT lazy.

TLDR; Stop rooting for SE to ban everyone who doesn't play the game the way you think they should.

I'm not. I'm rooting for SE to ban everyone who is RMT and/or is violating the terms of service.

And how exactly would shouting in a city provide proof that Gil was exchanged for real life money? I'll give you a hint. It won't.

They don't just go, "Oh, he's shouting for cleaves / paying to join one, must be RMT/gil buyer! BAN HIM!" They run checks on the characters and accounts involved the same way they would investigate any other RMT case. if they find patterns of RMT activity, which they have obviously spent at least some time analyzing how RMT act and behave, then they look into taking action.

This is a moot point as you cannot FC your first job to 99. You have to leave and do limit breaks every 5 levels. No one is doing that in a pay per hour party. Quit being intentionally obtuse.

new player doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't have 1 level 99 job yet." If you have just 1 level 99 job, there are several jobs that I would argue can not make the amount of money you claim to make doing the activities you claim to do. What if your first job was WHM, or GEO (post limit break implementation), or SCH? could you proc and kill dynamis mobs as fast most people who do it? Not likely.

What's even sillier about this is we're fighting over some arbitrary amount of money- an amount that I never specified. the specific amount is irrelevant- I don't care if you can make 100 million gil in an hour. Not everyone can or will have the patience or motivation to do whatever it is you're doing to make that gil.

[FrankReynolds]

I would do the same thing, but it would repeat in an endless loop; so this will be the last time.

1 million gil is not a lot to you, but it is a lot to new players, and no person just starting the game is going to make 1 million gil in any real hurry. Keep repeating it if you want, but the fact of the matter is, just because YOU can make X gil in Y time, doesn't mean other people can, or that other people see that as easy to accomplish. We could fight over this to the end of time. 1 million gil can't be made in 5 minutes or less solo (without a lot of luck e.g. getting a good drop from some NM), and if something takes longer than 5 minutes, there are people with too much money and too much laziness who will happily pay large (small, meduim, whatever the hell you want to call it) sums of gil for someone to do something for them. You will not convince me that most people shouting for cleaves at set regular intervals all day every day are not RMT nor that none of the people buying in are not gil buyers.

It does not matter how easy you think it is. There will be people too lazy to bother doing it.

Christ, there are people who will buy items off the auction house that are available from an NPC in the same city they're in for cheaper. People are willing to pay more just to avoid spending a small amount of time walking, because that would require EFFORT! There are people that are just THAT lazy.

So to sum it up, most people who have a million gil are gil buyers yeah? That's where we are at? And you realize that you have had over a million gil in the past so you are here and now declaring that you are almost definitely a gil buyer right? You're cool with that? You're going to come here on the forums and say that you and pretty much anyone who has as much money as you is cheating? No point banning then, just shut the servers down now. Everyone is cheating.

I'm not. I'm rooting for SE to ban everyone who is RMT and/or is violating the terms of service.

Your above explanation regarding the unlikelihood of legitimate acquisition of gil suggests that you and everyone you know are supporting RMT activities and should thereby be banned. Something tells me you will not do the right thing and cancel your account though.

They don't just go, "Oh, he's shouting for cleaves / paying to join one, must be RMT/gil buyer! BAN HIM!" They run checks on the characters and accounts involved the same way they would investigate any other RMT case. if they find patterns of RMT activity, which they have obviously spent at least some time analyzing how RMT act and behave, then they look into taking action.

That is not what is being asked in the OP and that is not what we have been discussing. We have been discussing the possibility of legitimate non RMT players being banned simply for offering FC services. Your above description of lazy players suggests that you belive that any and all people involved in FC parties are automatically guilty. That is completely different from auditing a players records for real money trades which has absolutely nothing to do with shouting.

new player doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't have 1 level 99 job yet." If you have just 1 level 99 job, there are several jobs that I would argue can not make the amount of money you claim to make doing the activities you claim to do. What if your first job was WHM, or GEO (post limit break implementation), or SCH? could you proc and kill dynamis mobs as fast most people who do it? Not likely.

You can make money off just about any event as whm or sch as both jobs are highly desired. I hardly think GEO has been around long enough to be considered in this conversation.

What's even sillier about this is we're fighting over some arbitrary amount of money- an amount that I never specified. the specific amount is irrelevant- I don't care if you can make 100 million gil in an hour. Not everyone can or will have the patience or motivation to do whatever it is you're doing to make that gil.

1 million isn't arbitrary. Shouters generally charge 100k an hour for FC parties. 1 mil is roughly enough to go from level 30 to level 80+ . Everyone doesn't have to make that amount or even care to. If anyone can do that legitimately (thousands of people do every day) then you are going to end up banning honest people by auto-banning everyone who does FC parties.

Based on a 24 hour cycle with the average party lasting 10 hours accross all servers your talking about banning somewhere in the ballpark of 500+ people a day. You're insane.

[Alhanelem]

So to sum it up, most people who have a million gil are gil buyers yeah?

I'm not stating that or implying it. I'm saying that people who spend this money on cleaves are comparatively more likely to have bought gil than those who don't spend that money on cleaves. Personally, I don't make millions of gil every day and I would not consider buying a spot in a cleave party to level up 1 job to be worth that amount of gil. You might be willing to throw away 1 mil on something that isn't all that hard to get for free (get a job from 30 to 99 in ordinary abyssea party) but I sure wouldn't be. Call me a miser or frugal but when I know there are things I want that cost much, much more, I would be much more likely to just save for that.

If anyone can do that legitimately (thousands of people do every day) then you are going to end up banning honest people by auto-banning everyone who does FC parties.

Which is why you don't ban people on this sole basis- you conduct an investigation and determine whether they recieved gil from a known gil seller, you analyze the interactions to determine if the person doing the cleaving is offloading money to an RMT mule, etc.

None of this is as simple or cut and dry as you make it out to be or think it is. They aren't just arbitrarily banning every cleaver who shouts and every person who buys into one of those cleaves.

Your above explanation regarding the unlikelihood of legitimate acquisition of gil suggests that you and everyone you know are supporting RMT activities and should thereby be banned. Something tells me you will not do the right thing and cancel your account though.

What is this I don't even- huh? How does that explanation suggest anything of the sort? I do not support RMT, nor do the people I associate with on a daily basis, unless you slide down the slippery slope and argue that anyone who buys an item or service from anybody must be supporting RMT, which is not what I said at all.

You can make money off just about any event as whm or sch as both jobs are highly desired. I hardly think GEO has been around long enough to be considered in this conversation.

Neither job can make money off "just about any event" - not at the rate you suggest. SCH is NOT that highly desired anymore because embrava was nerfed. WHM is desired but doesn't perform that well on its own. WHMs are not going to go into dynamis and farm currency. If either of these jobs join someone else, they aren't getting as much as they could if they were on some other job.

[Ravenmore]

Like was said no one is going to pay to do a FC when you have to leave every 5 levels if they are new. Then by time they are in a position to buy a slot they more then likely know of the many gil fountains in the game. But really your whole argument falls apart pretty fast anyway seeing how there is in no way any kind of large influx of new players. There are amny lazy players and enough are buying gil to keep the rmt around but paying for FCs is not the reason people are buying gil they buy gil to finish relics and the like. By the logic the snow flakes are using anyone building a relic is a gil buyer.

[Alhanelem]

Like was said no one is going to pay to do a FC when you have to leave every 5 levels if they are new. Then by time they are in a position to buy a slot they more then likely know of the many gil fountains in the game. But really your whole argument falls apart pretty fast anyway seeing how there is in no way any kind of large influx of new players.

My argument doesn't fall apart at all because 1) I didn't say anything about people cleaving their very first job and leaving every 5 levels and coming back or anything like that and 2) It doesn't exclusively apply to new players at all. Anyone can pay for a cleave, and not just anyone makes 1 mil every day or every hour or however fast you personally make it. Not anyone even wants to spend that time making money even if it's easy, when they could be playing other content.

People most certainly do buy gil to do cleaves, as they buy gil to do lots of other things. To argue that nobody does is simply ignorance and flat out wrong. I'm not saying "all people who buy into cleaves are gil buyers" - rather, "People who buy into cleave parties are more likely to be buying gil than people who level up by other methods."

Frankly I can't even comprehend why people would do it when it's easy enough to get into a non-cleave party, which can still be very fast and require little effort, for free. But apparently, people do.

By the logic the snow flakes are using anyone building a relic is a gil buyer.

1) flame attack is unwarranted, I am not a "snow flake," and I find your comments offensive. 2) This is not the logic I'm using at all, and I did not say, imply, or suggest that "anyone building a relic is a gil buyer."

[Demon6324236]

STOP ARGUING IN MY THREAD!

I made this thread to get an answer as to if players who make or participate in FC parties will get banned, not to argue the ethics of FC parties or argue if people will buy gil to join them. That is another subject entirely, if people buy gil to join the parties they should be punished, not the party, not its leaders, the people who bought the gil. Stop arguing about something completely off topic or start your own thread. I want an answer from SE, not your arguments over ethics or gil buying for parties.

[Zagen]

If you read the original post, they said something then about shouts being a disruption also. The current post is the same as the last time this came up.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, "something that wasn't previously mentioned" was supposed to be read as "something that wasn't previously mentioned by Okipuit". I understand that the original message mentions shouting, so if I shouted:

(Blue Mage) (Leech) (Party) (Do You Need It?) 500k/5hr (/tell)

And someone saw me shout that every 30 seconds or even once a minute for 10 minutes or however long it takes me to fill up. That person then thinks "Hey that Zagen guy he must be RMT cuz he's shouting for a leech party, I'm gonna report him!" so what happens to me?

I mean people who know me, recognize the name, or bother to look me up on FFXIAH or Linkshell Community whenever that's fixed could (what I feel is obvious) obviously tell I'm not a RMT leech party shouter but some random person who's never met me might think I am. That person's word shouldn't be enough to get me flagged as RMT and then banned. If it is I sure as hell would like to know.

Also not only am I at risk if that person looked me up and saw which zone I picked and then found me to find out which characters joined so they could report each and everyone of those players as participators in RMT activities, is that enough to get people banned?

This is important because that could then be extended to other mercenary services or even people who shout to sell KI pop sets, currency, fish, or anything. Do you get why this actually needs to be explicitly explained?