On Puppetmaster, Dancer, Rune Fencer Job Abilities

[Asymptotic]

I've been asking for an elimination of "soft" JA delay across the board pretty much since the creation of these forums and it has never gotten a response. I wish this thread more luck!

I asked for the removal of only a subset of JAs in hopes that a more conservative request might at least get a slap on the wrist from Camate!

[Horadrim]

Hello Players, Community Team, and Developers!
(in the case where you fall into more than one of these categories, you are still capped at a maximum of a single "hello!" Balance!)

Unlike other front-line jobs, Puppetmaster, Dancer and Rune Fencer have a focus on the repeated use of short-recast job abilities in order to maintain their intended function. Unfortunately, this becomes detrimental because of the forced delays incurred with using a job ability. To a lesser extent, dragoons are also affected so I will also address that in this thread.

There are two categories of delay:

1.) A hard delay during which no other abilities or melee attacks can be performed (1 second) - (this delay is probably fair)
2.) A soft delay in which you may execute another job ability but you cannot perform a melee attack (1 second) - (this is the one that is the major problem)

In all cases I propose the removal of the second category of delay (soft delay) from certain job abilities that are designed to be repeatedly used by these jobs (but not the first category, the hard delay) . In certain cases I provide additional suggestions based on the nature of these job abilities and suggest two new job abilities designed to alleviate the delay woes these jobs would still experience in high-haste situations where job ability forced delay is more pronounced.

On Puppetmaster:

Suggestions

• Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Maneuvers
• Increase the maximum effect duration from the following job abilities: Maneuvers (1 minute --> 3 minutes)
  
• Add a new job ability that will force the next maneuver to apply three stages of the maneuver at once. Here is my suggestion:
  
  Risky Routine: (Recast: 5 minutes) Your next maneuver will apply three maneuver effects instead of one, but the burden on your Automaton will be drastic.
  
  Notes: It would be very easy to overload an automaton using this ability, but it would allow the Puppetmaster to quickly maximize an aspect of the Automaton for a time.

On Dancer:

Suggestions

• Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Steps
• Allow appropriate job-ability specific gear/enhancements to allow the following job abilities to surpass the melee accuracy cap: Steps (appropriate gear being gear that "Increases "Steps" accuracy")
• The forced delay on Presto, Sambas, Waltzes, and Flourishes is probably a fair trade-off for their effects but opinions will differ on this.
  
• Add a new job ability that will force the next step to inflict the maximum level of daze. Here is my suggestion:
  
  Grand Jeté: (Recast: 3 minutes) Your next step will increase the daze to the maximum level but the TP cost will be tripled and will not grant finishing moves.

Note: Grand Jeté would not grant a bonus to step accuracy like Presto does. This ability is designed to allow a Dancer to contribute the maximum enfeebling effect for fast situations.

On Rune Fencer:

Suggestions

• Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Rune Enchantments

On Dragoon:

Suggestions

• Remove the forced soft delay from the following job abilities: Jump, High Jump, Spirit Jump, Super Jump, Soul Jump

These changes would remove the unfair hindrances that these classes experience based on their design. I have been relatively conservative with these suggestions.

As this deals with 3 of my 5 jobs I find myself specifically relevant to the conversation.
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I agree with all of this. (._.)

[Mizuharu]

Felt appropriate. >_>

[Asymptotic]

Quantification:

For all comparisons we'll assume a probably low estimate of 100 dmg average / hit for simplicity.

At Capped Haste

Scenario 1 - Top Of The Line at Haste Cap + Mythic AM3
No additional DW gear
QA 4
DA 31
TA 8
Store TP + 41


Terpsichore 99 | Twashtar 99
Delay 205 | Delay 176
(133.5 base delay with DWIV)
Base TP /hit: 4.6
TP / Hit with STP: 6.5
Attacks per Round: 3.58
TP per round: ~23.3
Floored Delay: 76.2
Approx. time per round: ~1.27s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
77 TP return
Gain: 67 TP

3.14 - 4.72 rounds lost
73 - 109.3 TP lost

Net Gain: -43 to -5
-1124 to 1689 damage lost

======================================

Twashtar 99 | Pugiunclus
Delay 176 | Delay 150
(114.1 base delay with DWIV)
Base TP /hit: 4.45
TP / Hit with STP: 6.27
Attacks per Round: 3.31
TP per round: 20.7
Floored Delay: 65.2
Approx. time per round: ~1.09s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

3.67 - 5.5 rounds lost
75 - 114 TP lost

Net Gain: -67 to -28 TP
1214 to 1820 damage lost


Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80TP

55 to 7.34 rounds lost
114 - 152 TP lost

Net Gain: -34 to -72 TP
1820 to 2429 damage lost

=========================================

Terpsichore 99 | Twashtar 99
Delay 205 | Delay 176
NOT HASTE CAPPED
DW+23 STP+46
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)


QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 28
Post DW Delay: 89.5 (hit)
Base TP: 4.24
Post STP TP: 6.2
Attacks per round: 3.31
TP/round: 20.5

Post-haste delay: 94.4
Time/Round: 1.57s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
77 TP return
Gain: 67 TP

2.55 to 3.82 rounds lost
52.23 - 78 TP lost
844 to 1264 damage lost

Net gain: -11 to +15
+2 average

=================================

Twashtar 9X | Thokcha 99
STP+31

This last one assumes a worst case where you have to sub NIN or something else silly!

QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 31
Post DW Delay: 86.01 (hit)
Base TP: 4.21
Post STP TP: 5.52
Attacks per round: 2.83
TP/round: 15.62
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)

Post Haste Delay: 90.7
Time per round: ~1.51 s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

4-6 melee econds lost
2.65 to 3.97 rounds lost
41.4 to 62 tp lost
Net gain: -15 to +5.6
749 to 1123 damage lost


Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80 TP

3.97 to 5.29 rounds lost
62 to 82.63 tp lost
-2.63 to +18 TP gained
1123 to 1497 damage lost

=============

And the worst case without saber dance

QA: 0 TA: 3 DA: 11
Post DW Delay: 86.01 (hit)
Base TP: 4.21
Post STP TP: 5.52
Attacks per round: 2.45
TP/round: 13.52
Haste (150/1024) + Samba(101/1024) + 23% gear (233/1024)

Post Haste Delay: 90.7
Time per round: ~1.51 s

Time to use Presto + Box step + Reverse Flourish
4-6 seconds non-melee time
10 TP cost
57 TP return
Gain: 47 TP

4-6 melee econds lost
2.65 to 3.97 rounds lost
35.8 to 53.6 tp lost
Net gain: -6.6 to +11.2
Damage lost 649 to 972
Damage Equivalence of net TP assuming no overflow: -132 to +220




Time to use Presto + Box step + Box Step + Reverse Flourish
6-8 seconds non-melee time
20 TP cost
100 TP return
Gain: 80 TP

3.97 to 5.29 rounds lost
53.67 to 71.63 tp lost
+8 to +27 TP gained
972 to 1296 damage lost
Damage equivalence of net TP assuming no overflow: +160 to +540


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Even in the worst case (non SAM subjob, only self-applicable buffs, no saber dance), the benefit of using Reverse Flourish (without No Foot Rise) for raw TP gain is marginal at best because of the forced delay invovled and is only really worth using for a solo skillchain where the additional skillchain damage will overcome the damage loss due to delay.

The only exception perhaps would be if your situation warrants constantly using waltzes and these situations are some combination of a.) extrmely rare or b.) situations where DNC is filling a role it's not designed to fill.

[Seha]

Not entirely sure about jumps, but /supports

[Glamdring]

I feel as though SE won't do this simply because JAs cost no MP nor ammunition to use, they need to have some kind of delay. Magic has a delay and so do weapon skills. DNC isn't a mage per se but its steps/waltzes and flourishes are instant cures/buffs/debuffs. The delay on PUP or DNC abilities serves as an analogue to mages. Mages use magic, which has delay, and light armored jobs use JAs for special effects/bonuses which are given a delay as well. It's a balanced mechanic I think.

Take waltz for example. It has a delay that interrupts your attacks and prevent melee swings but it cant be interrupted, it can be cast while running, it's instant and can't be silenced. Steps lower def or evasion, they can miss but they don't expend tools or MP, they expend TP which is technically 'free'(no refresh needed etc).

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay. I feel like SE lets the JA delay slide on these jobs since from their original vision sees these jobs as support damage dealers not main frontline damage dealers like SAM WAR MNK DRK. DNC and PUP fit that ambiguous,tactical, light armored, rogue archetype. Moderate damage but has a host of gimmicks or special effects that enhance the party or debuffs the mob, but could concentrate solely on damage if need be(to a lesser extent than a main DD job though). I think if you look at PUP how SE envisioned them and less how you want them to be played, it makes more sense. DNC and PUP are so versatile and can do so much more than a SAM WAR MNK DRK(in terms of roles i.e healing, debuffing, nuking) that the JA delay in a way creates a barrier, preventing them from entering the realm of those SAM WAR MNK DRK jobs which can't drop a waltz or a fire V and can only output damage. Because of that, the JA delay is an indirect barrier preventing jobs that have high damage potential but also have other tools and versatile abilities that main DDs dont have, from becoming overpowered.

tl;dr DNC swings extremely fast, has Cure V and Cure VI, debuffs, has a 10% haste JA, great SC ability, reverse flourish and a ton of other JAs, 2h DDs have way less than that; so the JA delay kind of prevents jobs like DNC from becoming too powerful; besides mages have cast delay way longer than JA delay

I agree with you 100%, and my worry is these soft delays are there for balance, if SE takes those "nerf" elements from the job what will we get in return?

Dnc already hits like a feather duster, just a very FAST feather duster, handy for a tickle fetishest, not so much for a DD. If they get us swinging even faster they'll probably just reduce our attack or ACC, and that's the last thing I want.

Pup, it's a bit annoying but nothing major to me. My pup is already almost as strong as my beast, and with greater all around utility. The only worries I actually have is casting during downtime, slow attacks from Valoredge and shield bash is too slow to actually stun anything short of AM, I can't put any trial buff on a 2nd hand, and that I can't save configurations. Granted, now that it's not in Aby all the time I do use different attachment arrays a bit more.

I don't play drg so no comments there.

Rune, if anything maybe pup has me overconditioned, but since the runes last so much longer than manuvers I tend not to watch them as closely as I do playing pup so I end up not renewing them when they need it, and that affects both my DPS and my defense. Partly a learning curve, but the hit to reapply runes to my DPS is so small (and faster than the Enspells they kind of emulate) that I have no issues with delay. Now, if they upped the enmity enough-and tanking was enough of a part of current gameplay that tank hate was an issue-that I was actively using runes for hate generation despite the duration I would be alot more concerned. But it isn't. However, rune and SoA are still under development (we don't even have merits or JSE yet), so I can definitely see this BECOMING an issue depending on which way they go.

[Alhanelem]

The only exception perhaps would be if your situation warrants constantly using waltzes and these situations are some combination of a.) extrmely rare or b.) situations where DNC is filling a role it's not designed to fill.

I think it's amusing that you say this is a role DNC wasn't designed to fill. I've done it myself on many occasions (especially in abyssea where you can have essentially unlimited TP and can full time heal on DNC/WHM.

DNC is more than capable of being a decent DPS, as you demonstrate, but to argue that it it isn't designed to be a hybrid support class when that's exactly what it's supposed to be? uhm.... ?

This has gotten really off topic... I don't think we need an anaylsis of DNC's TP gain to say that these jobs would benefit a lot from curbing JA delay.

[Asymptotic]

Dark Knights have spells but that doesn't mean that it's generally effective to use them - waltzes were effective at 75 but SE has made it apparent that they have abandoned that design paradigm for something else all together. If you're going DNC/WHM and healing fulltime in Abyssea then I really have nothing more to say to you any more than I would someone arguing that a big wheel is an effective means of transportation on the highway.

[Asymptotic]

This has gotten really off topic... I don't think we need an anaylsis of DNC's TP gain to say that these jobs would benefit a lot from curbing JA delay.

It's actually in response to the "But balance!" people, because it ends up working out to the same thing as giving Refresh a 120MP cost while tripling the cast time and saying "It has to be expensive because you can do so many other things!"

[Yinnyth]

It would certainly be nice if these changes could be made, but why restrict them only to the jobs you have listed? Why not allow all jobs to reap the rewards of decreased animation delay?

If I had to take a guess at why the system was made the way it is, I would assume it's because they want their (at the time) awesome-looking animation to play fully instead of being interrupted by your character taking another swing.

For the time being... my fellow rune fencers, I strongly suggest popping a rune just before using a WS or spell. Stacking these things together seems to minimize the impact that animation delay holds on your character.