On Puppetmaster, Dancer, Rune Fencer Job Abilities

[Asymptotic]

Uhm, Presto only yields 1 additional finishing move, meaning you get 3 from the step you subsequently use instead of 2.

Hence why I specifically said "I" do.

Presto does give me 4 finishing moves, but it didn't really change the way I use my FMs. 3 FM reverse flourish was already enough to perform a solo-skillchain (57TP) after WS TP return + one round of attacks.

In other words the transition from getting 3fms with Presto to Terpsichore (4fms with Presto) did not change the most effective way to use my fms!

[Alhanelem]

I understand that, but TP on DNC isn't just for WS. I'd rather get 100 TP from reverse flourish than not 100 TP.

Also, you're an extremely rare breed with terpsichore, so while you're saying it didn't affect things for you, that doesn't mean it doesn't affect things for anyone else.

[Asymptotic]

The only reason to use Reverse Flourish is to build random TP to start things or to solo skillchain, otherwise you are better off meleeing for TP. Otherwise it was this (where both WS were Rudra's Storm):



Terpsichore did not change how I used reverse flourish, it only changed the weapon skills that I was using and the fact that I no longer had any use for flourishes outside of Reverse and the random Violent. It's the downfall of Terpsichore: a million FMs and no reason to spend them. As a result, the only aspect of DNC that it changes is that you use fewer of DNC's inherent abilities.

[Ophannus]

SE has acknowledged the delay for DRG which is why they implemented Spirit and Soul Jump(they increased the TP for these abilities from 1.5->2 and from 2->3 I believe for Spirit and Soul respectively.) Their logic was that the TP generated by Jump and High Jump did not warrant their use since they slowed down the Dragoon's attack speed. Because of this, Jumps were actually not worth interrupting your attack rounds since they gave as much TP as a regular hit but had a 2 second delay which otherwise wouldn't have been there at all if you didn't Jump. Spirit and Soul Jump were implemented to give you 2-3 attack rounds worth of TP to justify the delay.

[Ophannus]

I feel as though SE won't do this simply because JAs cost no MP nor ammunition to use, they need to have some kind of delay. Magic has a delay and so do weapon skills. DNC isn't a mage per se but its steps/waltzes and flourishes are instant cures/buffs/debuffs. The delay on PUP or DNC abilities serves as an analogue to mages. Mages use magic, which has delay, and light armored jobs use JAs for special effects/bonuses which are given a delay as well. It's a balanced mechanic I think.

Take waltz for example. It has a delay that interrupts your attacks and prevent melee swings but it cant be interrupted, it can be cast while running, it's instant and can't be silenced. Steps lower def or evasion, they can miss but they don't expend tools or MP, they expend TP which is technically 'free'(no refresh needed etc).

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay. I feel like SE lets the JA delay slide on these jobs since from their original vision sees these jobs as support damage dealers not main frontline damage dealers like SAM WAR MNK DRK. DNC and PUP fit that ambiguous,tactical, light armored, rogue archetype. Moderate damage but has a host of gimmicks or special effects that enhance the party or debuffs the mob, but could concentrate solely on damage if need be(to a lesser extent than a main DD job though). I think if you look at PUP how SE envisioned them and less how you want them to be played, it makes more sense. DNC and PUP are so versatile and can do so much more than a SAM WAR MNK DRK(in terms of roles i.e healing, debuffing, nuking) that the JA delay in a way creates a barrier, preventing them from entering the realm of those SAM WAR MNK DRK jobs which can't drop a waltz or a fire V and can only output damage. Because of that, the JA delay is an indirect barrier preventing jobs that have high damage potential but also have other tools and versatile abilities that main DDs dont have, from becoming overpowered.

tl;dr DNC swings extremely fast, has Cure V and Cure VI, debuffs, has a 10% haste JA, great SC ability, reverse flourish and a ton of other JAs, 2h DDs have way less than that; so the JA delay kind of prevents jobs like DNC from becoming too powerful; besides mages have cast delay way longer than JA delay

[Glamdring]

I feel as though SE won't do this simply because JAs cost no MP nor ammunition to use, they need to have some kind of delay. Magic has a delay and so do weapon skills. DNC isn't a mage per se but its steps/waltzes and flourishes are instant cures/buffs/debuffs. The delay on PUP or DNC abilities serves as an analogue to mages. Mages use magic, which has delay, and light armored jobs use JAs for special effects/bonuses which are given a delay as well. It's a balanced mechanic I think.

Take waltz for example. It has a delay that interrupts your attacks and prevent melee swings but it cant be interrupted, it can be cast while running, it's instant and can't be silenced. Steps lower def or evasion, they can miss but they don't expend tools or MP, they expend TP which is technically 'free'(no refresh needed etc).

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay. I feel like SE lets the JA delay slide on these jobs since from their original vision sees these jobs as support damage dealers not main frontline damage dealers like SAM WAR MNK DRK. DNC and PUP fit that ambiguous,tactical, light armored, rogue archetype. Moderate damage but has a host of gimmicks or special effects that enhance the party or debuffs the mob, but could concentrate solely on damage if need be(to a lesser extent than a main DD job though). I think if you look at PUP how SE envisioned them and less how you want them to be played, it makes more sense. DNC and PUP are so versatile and can do so much more than a SAM WAR MNK DRK(in terms of roles i.e healing, debuffing, nuking) that the JA delay in a way creates a barrier, preventing them from entering the realm of those SAM WAR MNK DRK jobs which can't drop a waltz or a fire V and can only output damage. Because of that, the JA delay is an indirect barrier preventing jobs that have high damage potential but also have other tools and versatile abilities that main DDs dont have, from becoming overpowered.

tl;dr DNC swings extremely fast, has Cure V and Cure VI, debuffs, has a 10% haste JA, great SC ability, reverse flourish and a ton of other JAs, 2h DDs have way less than that; so the JA delay kind of prevents jobs like DNC from becoming too powerful; besides mages have cast delay way longer than JA delay

I agree with you 100%, and my worry is these soft delays are there for balance, if SE takes those "nerf" elements from the job what will we get in return?

Dnc already hits like a feather duster, just a very FAST feather duster, handy for a tickle fetishest, not so much for a DD. If they get us swinging even faster they'll probably just reduce our attack or ACC, and that's the last thing I want.

Pup, it's a bit annoying but nothing major to me. My pup is already almost as strong as my beast, and with greater all around utility. The only worries I actually have is casting during downtime, slow attacks from Valoredge and shield bash is too slow to actually stun anything short of AM, I can't put any trial buff on a 2nd hand, and that I can't save configurations. Granted, now that it's not in Aby all the time I do use different attachment arrays a bit more.

I don't play drg so no comments there.

Rune, if anything maybe pup has me overconditioned, but since the runes last so much longer than manuvers I tend not to watch them as closely as I do playing pup so I end up not renewing them when they need it, and that affects both my DPS and my defense. Partly a learning curve, but the hit to reapply runes to my DPS is so small (and faster than the Enspells they kind of emulate) that I have no issues with delay. Now, if they upped the enmity enough-and tanking was enough of a part of current gameplay that tank hate was an issue-that I was actively using runes for hate generation despite the duration I would be alot more concerned. But it isn't. However, rune and SoA are still under development (we don't even have merits or JSE yet), so I can definitely see this BECOMING an issue depending on which way they go.

[Asymptotic]

Except it doesn't work out like that because JA delay is crippling (PUP is weakened because they have an automaton so the automaton is taken into account for balance but the automaton is rendered useless for PUP to function in higher content because the cost of using maneuvers is too high) -- but concerns like yours are why I conservatively suggested removal of the soft delay (only the second half of the delay) and not the first half (the hard delay) and only on a specific subset of job abilities which are designed to be used repeatedly at high frequency (but did not request removal from Waltzes etc)

Magic is a completely different story but the effects of most spells are more potent than similarly leveled job abilities and I didn't address that in this thread (I'll let the myriad RDM melee threads handle that) although the delay should probably be lowered on that as well

[Alhanelem]

Manuevers allow a PUP to use their pet's abilities which is the main aspect of their job, they're not Monks so DDing on the master isn't 100% of their job, half of their job is the Automaton which is how SE justifies the delay.

Difficulty:

To enhance your automaton's performance, you have to sacrifice your own (both in JA delay from maneuvers and in equipment). To boost your own performance, you have to sacrifice the automaton's, and furthermore alter its behavior in an undesirable way. The benefits of enhancing one or the other basically cancel eachother out. Cutting down JA delay, making the time investment in boosting your auto smaller makes boosting your automaton more worthwhile.

[Asymptotic]

The game is not going to break if Dancers and Puppetmasters can suddenly use Steps and Maneuvers with half of the forced delay that they currently experience. We're not talking about "On the Dot" here.

(sorry I just had to take a cheap shot at that, mini-games crashing servers is seriously hilarious)

That aside, the soft delay is sort of silly in the first place. I just used a job ability so I can't swing my weapon during this time, but! I can Jump, or cast a spell, or use a weapon skill, or use another job ability! Herpaderpadoo! ^(='-'=)^

[xiozen]

To OP: I like it! Especially the suggestion for Puppetmaster... not only makes sense but its a worthy adjustment. THANKS! I hope the Devs listen.