So why do we have the worst Espells?

[Vicious]

If you are /WHM or /SCH you are not on the front lines, you are a back line job at that time and you are not fighting with the other melee jobs.

/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.

[Demon6324236]

If you're going to start arguing relevance, then, I posit that all RDM solos at this stage in the game are equally irrelevant, as anything that drops anything of 'relevance' is extraordinarily inefficient to kill without the necessary procs and/or Treasure Hunter (a la Abyssea, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Salvage), downright impossible for RDM to solo in the first place (NNI, Legion), or was already feasible to solo at 75 when yonder Warmachine was, as you say, "relevant" (Limbus, Salvage, Sky, whatever).

I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server, NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well, Legion I do not do, nor would I do with RDM. Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

I need not try harder, I need only think and share my RDM experience, please do tell how that NM you showed is similar to these other events you listed, which are in fact, still useful.

[Vicious]

I DD in VW as RDM/NIN as well as many Emp/Relic WAR/SAM/DRK/MNKs do on my server

If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...

NNI I have DDed in before and done quite well

I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.

Limbus gear is needed for Neo-Limbus gear, and the coins are needed for Neo-Limbus as well, thus, relevant content. Salvage is needed for Alexandrites, new Salvage gear, and some of its gear holds up decently, for instance until this most recent update, Morrigan's feet were the best KoR feet in the game for RDM still. Sky gear can be augmented, Zenith Crown is a very useful Enhancing Magic piece for both RDM and WHM, Zenith Pumps are the best cure feet in the game outside of Iaso if you require cure potency in that slot, and second best for cure cast time.

As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.

[Demon6324236]

/mind blown

So, it's either frontline /NIN dual-wield I ain't casting shit, or backline I'm using staves and maging it up, eh?

Why are you playing Red Mage????

I tried to make it flash in 3-D, but I couldn't figure out how.

Because while I am on the front lines using my dual swords, I am also assisting through the use of magic, such as Cure spells, to heal my party. Low maning Salvage, an example you gave, I do that with RDM/NIN and THF/DNC, RDM for healing, DDing, and tanking everything that hits low numbers, while the THF is for TH, EVA tanking anything that hits hard enough to hurt me for more than 100 through Phalanx, and for the occasional erase from /DNC.

I play RDM because I enjoy the job, I made both Excalibur and Almace as my only Relic and Emp so far, so you can tell just a bit how devoted I am to the job, and how much time I invest in it by compare to others. I understand the job, and I understand that in any case my RDM would be subbing a mage subjob, I am not expected to be, nor should be, on the front lines, in any case where I am fighting on the front lines, I am using next to nothing but cures and possibly a few nukes or enfeebles, depending on the mob and location.

[Vicious]

I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.
-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.
-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.

Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. Granted, this assumes I am smart enough to cast an Enspell II, preferably of the element that will assist the one I just Accessioned if possible for our targets. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary, faster casting times for more melee swings, increased MP sustainability (granted, this rarely is an issue these days, but meh), as well as more situationally useful uses for Accession, such as Barspells and Stoneskin.

[Demon6324236]

If you don't know what's wrong with this statement...

That many DDs on my server are terrible or poorly geared? I agree, it would seem that way, at the same time, my RDM does often come out as one of the top 3 DDs, and Dia III helps.

I got carried away with this one I'll admit, RDM would do okay against the fodder mobs in there; you'd be a lot less useful vs. the floorx20 bosses though. I'd still take virtually anything over a RDM in there.

Dia III helps with defense, helping kill speed on bosses, is it the most amazing job ever? No, but it does a good job in the event never the less.

As I said, this was all doable and/or relevant (some things for different reasons, which I don't see mattering for the comparison) at 75, as was the Warmachine, so it does not help your case.

See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.

I don't doubt that you're devoted to RDM for whatever reason, and that's totally cool. It is, however, not a pass for the poor decisions you make regarding the job.

Here's some tips:

If you are dealing comparable damage to the Ragnarok DRKS and Ukon WARs in your VW alliance, the following statements are true:

-You have good gear, are not retarded, and are getting BRD/COR buffs.

Yes, I have a near perfect RDM TP build, some of the more high end WS gear for all 3 of my primary WSs, and a 500 Enhancing Magic set which puts my buffs at their max potency. Buffs in VW should be obvious if your in a DD party, if your not in a DD party, its not even really worth drawing your weapons.

-Aforementioned melee are either dead, retarded, or proccing. If it's a pickup alliance, expect a healthy mix of the first two with a smattering of the third if you're lucky.

Were they any of the above, it would be fairly pointless to make a statement of it.

-You are not fighting anything remotely threatening and/or hard to damage, such as Ig-Alima, Botulus, Kalasutrax, Morta, Bismarck, PWarden.

RDM has to low of accuracy in a good TP build to hit any of those 6 NMs, I am not stupid enough to fight them. The majority of the mobs I DD on RDM against are the commonly shouted for NMs, Kaggen, Akvan, Pil, Qilin, Aello, and Uptala. The only 2 of the 6 you listed I have fought as RDM are Kala and Morta, Morta my accuracy was so terrible I changed to DRK as soon as the fight ended.

Your subjob does not dictate your role in the party. If I plan on meleeing in a party with two other 1H DDs, such as a MNK and a THF, we will deal more damage if I /SCH and Accession Enspells onto them than if I used /NIN for DW3. This also gives the party a highly reliable source of status cures when necessary.

Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

[Vicious]

See, here is the difference, the Warmachine has no relevance now, all of the others, do. Some are required for new events that were made for level 99s even, once they make lv99 versions of those BCNMs which require the gear from the originals, or the originals drop something players use often like AC, Alex, or ABCs, then yes, you will be correct in your comparison.

For the record, Fenian Ring is fun for PLD and kinda essential for the serious endgame WHM.

Question is more or less in my opinion, how much is your RDM doing with /NIN vs how much extra are your DDs doing with En-Is. I notice my extra damage from being useful is more than their extra 30 per swing tends to be. As for the -na spells, if I am that worried about them I more often than not do not want to be in a close range to mobs which may or may not kill me depending on what event you are suggesting this would take place in. The only event I can think of which is done with only about 3 people is Neo-Salvage, which I have not done, so I can not be sure.

I am not going to sit here and give myself a migraine attempting to math it out; I've parsed several times both ways, and /SCH wins handily for total party damage output; THF and MNK hit way more times per round than a RDM could ever hope to, as does NIN. As for the range involved, sure, sometimes you hang back for a NM here and there; the point is that you have that flexibility. Salvage is pretty much the perfect example of this and one of the events where a good jack-of-all-trades RDM really shines; it's absolutely RDM's best event at this point in the game.

[Demon6324236]

I would argue that Meebles is just as good in its lower stages, the tier 5 and final bosses are not meant for RDM to be of any use, then again Gallu are over powered in my opinion anyways, and would not go near them outside of Perfect Defense or Fana drink. And as I said, the ring is actually notable, however I would not say its terribly needed, it helps against undead, 1 category of mob, as for PLD using it, its ok, but who really builds a shield bash set, and would value 50 damage to be worth that effort? Then again, I built a pop for the Stone Mufflers, so I'm not one to talk.

[Vicious]

Meebles, definitely! I've only gone a few times but definitely seems RDM friendly.

Ring does seem like a lot of effort for a small reward but hey, it's an excuse to go dick around in old zones, and I'm always looking for those... in fact, I think I just found my next side project.

[Demon6324236]

Well I hope the thread gets back on track, sorry for all the derailment, I'm going to sleep. As I said in my last on-topic post, I do not think of En-IIs as a second tier to Enspells, as they do not follow the same rules as En-Is do while making them stronger, they are entirely unique spells. I think they should be changed to be the same as En-Is but with added features/upgrades, or they should be changed in name to something else, to display the fact they are not the same thing. The spell that costs more MP often seems to be the lesser of the two in peoples minds, and in any situation you are gearing to do your most damage, its correct, I believe the fact that the second tier is ever weaker, is a flaw, and one which should be corrected soon. We have had this for years, I am not saying to take the advantages away from the En-IIs, but rather give them all of the advantages of the En-Is, so that they can truly be better, and feel like a real second tier.