SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

[Caketime]

The only thing making it not possible to play all content with one job is the "terrible imbalance" aspect of the game we've been talking about. We have 20 jobs Saevel, and you listed 6 as being viable for events. 6 out of 20 is absolutely terrible, and it can be done better. All you've done so far is insist that there's no way to balance the game when you yourself don't know that for sure, you just have an incredibly biased opinion. I understand that you're still bitter about RDM, but you're making insulting comments and all we're trying to do is have a discussion. Cut it out. Or better yet, please enlighten us snowflakes as to exactly why it's not possible to balance the game and why I should just shut up and level a meathead DD job.

[Kincard]

Saevel's clearly not interested in an actual discussion, he has proved here and elsewhere multiple times that he never bothers completely reading/comprehending a post before he posts in response to it. I suppose it's just as likely he's incapable of doing that, though.

[saevel]

Misinterpreting an argument and breaking it down are two very different things, unfortunately for you. You still haven't explained in the least why this is "impossible" other than just stating it ad nauseum. If you are going to continue to make thinly veiled ad hominem attacks instead of making actual points like the actual child here, then I think we're done.

(By the way, awesome use of the 'u mad' argument, clearly you are putting your intellect on full display)



If people seriously cared that much they would bar Ukon WARs from Legion and demand to take only Ragnarok WARs instead (~5% difference, decently large).

Demonstrates you don't know much about Legion. The difference between them is much greater then 5% due to Legion NMs have critical defense bonus that nerfs Ukon. Legion is about throwing as many Rag's against the targets as possible while having three SCH/BLM's cycle stun to prevent it from acting.

I've stated it several times that balancing is impossible as each job would have to be identical to the others. Otherwise you get winners and losers based on who has access to what exploitable combo. Raise NIN's damge to 90% of a Rag WAR's damage and suddenly you have a DD who not only has high DPS but also increased survivability, why bring a Rag WAR when a Kanagi NIN (theoretically) would do 90% the damage while taking less damage overall. Won't change anything like Legion as damage intake isn't a concern but on anything else it would make Ninja broken.

Thus you haven't changed the primary complaint (not bringing NIN / PUP's to Legion) while breaking both jobs in everything else. On top of that a system wide change to make 1H on the same level as 2H vs level 120 NM's would then make 1H crushingly overpowered on anything 100~105.

See not as easy as you thought, law of unintended consequences being what it is. There was a time when 1H and 2H damage used the exact same damage formula and 1H pretty much won every time. Apoc's higher haste cap (prior to haste gear being so easy to cap) being one of the few exceptions to that rule. Now the true culprit to all this is LCF's static penalty to your damage, it becomes obscenely noticeable at higher levels. Changing that would fundamentally alter the balance across the entire game and I would bet that it would be for the worse not the better.

Ultimately asking for all jobs to be relevant to all content is silly and childish. Most MMO's struggle with four to six class combos and your asking SE's developers to balance out twenty two. Mind as well expect world peace first.

Now what you guys should be asking for, and I was hoping the light bulb would eventually go on (my expectations are too high I know), is that SE implement a wide variety of content that doesn't penalize slightly larger group setups. Salvage 2 was a decent start, it doesn't require a super specific setup though you want (WHM + THF + Pure DD) as a minimum. The unlock system kinda favors smaller groups for the first two floors and the loot system definitely favors smaller groups, but otherwise the event is pretty non-discriminatory. Of course this goes back to what I said earlier, any event that could be cleared by a relaxed 5~6 player group can be cleared by a min/maxed three player group. If they implement 120 super NM's then it'll be Rag WAR spammage, if they implement meebles / salvage II type content then it'll be groups of three to four players doing it.

Not much room outside of that, welcome to modern MMO's so glad you could join us after ten years.

[saevel]

The only thing making it not possible to play all content with one job is the "terrible imbalance" aspect of the game we've been talking about. We have 20 jobs Saevel, and you listed 6 as being viable for events. 6 out of 20 is absolutely terrible, and it can be done better. All you've done so far is insist that there's no way to balance the game when you yourself don't know that for sure, you just have an incredibly biased opinion. I understand that you're still bitter about RDM, but you're making insulting comments and all we're trying to do is have a discussion. Cut it out. Or better yet, please enlighten us snowflakes as to exactly why it's not possible to balance the game and why I should just shut up and level a meathead DD job.

I'm being honest and frank with all of you. You've put blinders on and refused to acknowledge that there really is only a few ways to go about doing anything without getting "gimmicky". In all honestly you can really only have five to six jobs in any game before you run into balance issues. You have "Healer Specialist", "DD Specialist", "Tank Specialist" and then room for one or two Hybrids, you could also tack in "Magic DD Specialist" if the game's engine allows for that. That is why in FFXI you see the exact same specialist jobs over and over again. It's not some great developmental failure on SE's part as every MMO ever made has to deal with this.

There are only so many ways to "kill stuff, get loot".

[Kincard]

Demonstrates you don't know much about Legion. The difference between them is much greater then 5% due to Legion NMs have critical defense bonus that nerfs Ukon.

I'm perfectly aware of the crit penalty, thanks. There have been numerous parses and I have read several parses that had Ukon WARs parsing about 5% behind Rag WARs. It's a large amount to be sure, but most leaders simply don't care about the little things as long as the run goes well. If you play to win as much as you can, good for you, that's not what the discussion is about.

Legion is about throwing as many Rag's against the targets as possible

Once again, missing the point. Rag does better but no LS leader is going to tell someone they can't come on WAR because they have an Ukon instead of a Rag. After a certain point people just don't care as much about he differences in DPS as long as they can win the event decently reliably.

Raise NIN's damge to 90% of a Rag WAR's damage and suddenly you have a DD who not only has high DPS but also increased survivability, why bring a Rag WAR when a Kanagi NIN (theoretically) would do 90% the damage while taking less damage overall. Won't change anything like Legion as damage intake isn't a concern but on anything else it would make Ninja broken.

You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that you should maximize your DPS as much as possible by taking as many Rags as possible, then you are saying that raising another job that trades DPS for some survivability (Really not that much anyway since most of the stuff in Legion has tons of AoEs and Migawari has a long cast/recast) is preferable. Isn't that what class balance is? I trade some offense for defense. Yes, there would be intricacies in the game mechanics to be ironed out, but you're proposing that they just lazily leave the system in its flawed state. That's just...what?

If it "doesn't matter" in your view, how does that make it broken?

On top of that a system wide change to make 1H on the same level as 2H vs level 120 NM's would then make 1H crushingly overpowered on anything 100~105.

Because they couldn't possible change the game in a way so that one-handers arn't as heavily punished on really high level monsters but only slightly change the way mid-level monsters are handled?

Ultimately asking for all jobs to be relevant to all content is silly and childish.

Once again you have missed the point. Nobody is saying all 20 jobs have to be the best at everything in every event. We're simply asking that all 20 jobs can fill some kind of role in all events, even if it's not ideal, without basically being dead weight. There's something called a middle ground, and there isn't one. That is what needs to be fixed. How you continuously miss this point when it's been stated in almost every response to you is baffling indeed.

[saevel]

I'm perfectly aware of the crit penalty, thanks. There have been numerous parses and I have read several parses that had Ukon WARs parsing about 5% behind Rag WARs. It's a large amount to be sure, but most leaders simply don't care about the little things as long as the run goes well. If you play to win as much as you can, good for you, that's not what the discussion is about.



Once again, missing the point. Rag does better but no LS leader is going to tell someone they can't come on WAR because they have an Ukon instead of a Rag. After a certain point people just don't care as much about he differences in DPS as long as they can win the event decently reliably.



You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are saying that you should maximize your DPS as much as possible by taking as many Rags as possible, then you are saying that raising another job that trades DPS for some survivability (Really not that much anyway since most of the stuff in Legion has tons of AoEs and Migawari has a long cast/recast) is preferable. Isn't that what class balance is? I trade some offense for defense. Yes, there would be intricacies in the game mechanics to be ironed out, but you're proposing that they just lazily leave the system in its flawed state. That's just...what?

If it "doesn't matter" in your view, how does that make it broken?

Your evading the issue about Legion, it's a whole helluva lot higher then 5%. Mathed out it's more like 15% or more. Also you've entered into the mode where you refuse to see the other persons point because it'll directly conflict with your own, so this conversation can't go any further. I used Ninja as a perfect example, "fixing" it's damage to be 90% of a "Pure DD" doesn't alleviate your primary concern (taking your NIN or PUP into Mul and killing third wave) while unbalancing everything that's not fighting level 120 NMs.

Because they couldn't possible change the game in a way so that one-handers arn't as heavily punished on really high level monsters but only slightly change the way mid-level monsters are handled?

Your refusing to see the game outside of "Damage ONRY!!!! MAKE MY NIN HIT HARDERER!!!", there are various types of events and low man events places more focus on survivability then damage. Enhancing a single aspect of a job without taking into consideration other aspects is how you get a broken game to begin with.

But lets go deeper into this rabbit hole. There was once a time when LCF didn't exist, at least for one particular type of damage. Ranged attacks used to hit IT the exact same as EM and the result was RNG spam for everything. RNG was the bandwagon job of choice, until SE nerfed it into the ground. What you just asked for was altering LCF which is one of the foundations of the games current balance. The only difference between a level 99, 110 and 120 monster is the amount of LCF it receives. Basically your now asking for SE to alter LCF to favor 1H at higher numbers which would result in a trickle down effect of making everything stupid easy. Legion would suddenly become a joke as would most content, this would result in SE nerfing it and we'd be in a worse situation then currently. Everyone's damage would suck equally not just 1h's.

Have you actually attempted to run math and see what could be changed or are you, like most others, just poping your mouth off and asking for more ponys? I know I have and the results are no matter what you do, 2H always stays ahead of 1H and by a far enough margin to be significant for strategy. You make it insignificant and things become stupid easy to the point of abyssea levels. The only way to arrive at a happy medium is to simply not include stupid level 120 NMs and then to lighten the LCF above 5 to 0.03 such that a monster 11 levels above would have 0.43 penalty instead of 0.55, it's not much but it evens things out a bit. This change would make Legion, PW and anything 110~120 easy though.

Once again you have missed the point. Nobody is saying all 20 jobs have to be the best at everything in every event. We're simply asking that all 20 jobs can fill some kind of role in all events, even if it's not ideal, without basically being dead weight. There's something called a middle ground, and there isn't one. That is what needs to be fixed. How you continuously miss this point when it's been stated in almost every response to you is baffling indeed.

No such thing as a "middle ground" in a MMO. That's like saying there is "middle ground" for a WS or TP gear item, it's either best in slot or it's not. A job is either the best for it's slot or it's not, period. Voidwatch is the place where "everyone can be useful" as procs matter, otherwise your either the best choice or not (out of whats available).

[Teraniku]

Quote Originally Posted by Calatilla View Post
No it isnt

Yes it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Kincard]

Your evading the issue about Legion, it's a whole helluva lot higher then 5%. Mathed out it's more like 15% or more.

When you math out Kogarasumaru it supposedly crushes all sorts of competition but in application players that have parsed their mythics have found that to be false. The number crunching will only take you so far, especially since you're in turtling gear half the time in Legion and that screws up a bunch of calculations anyway. Parses have shown Ukon WARs parsing within 5% of Rag WARs. Call them crappy players or whatever you want, that doesn't make it less valid.

Also you've entered into the mode where you refuse to see the other persons point because it'll directly conflict with your own, so this conversation can't go any further.

I don't think I need to point out how hypocritical this statement is when you've been unbudging on your stance without a single time even suggesting you're comprehending any of the posts you are reading.

there are various types of events and low man events places more focus on survivability then damage

If we're just going to focus on one job specifically, outside of Migawari blocking very specific types of attacks there is almost nothing a NIN can tank that a WAR can't at this point in the game. You don't seem to realize that WAR is a very powerful job even if you played it defensively because of retaliation.

Have you actually attempted to run math and see what could be changed or are you, like most others, just poping your mouth off and asking for more ponys? I know I have and the results are no matter what you do

I wasn't aware that you were privy to the game's source code and could eliminate every possibility of ways they could alter the game so that greater job balance could be achieved. It doesn't matter if the changes cannot fit into the game's current formulas/framework. They have altered formulas in the past. If it is unfeasible, then let them be the judge of that, they don't need you to speak for them. You're just being an alarmist and suggesting that any attempt at balancing would result in a catastrophe in the game's balance.

No such thing as a "middle ground" in a MMO. That's like saying there is "middle ground" for a WS or TP gear item, it's either best in slot or it's not.

I thought there was a limit on how much someone could miss the point. The "middle ground" is where I can take someone on a job that isn't ideal to an event without crippling the run, similar to how I can take a Ukon WAR instead of a Rag WAR to Legion without ruining the run. How are you having this much trouble comprehending this concept? Even taking your ridiculous claim of 15% advantage to Rag, that's still a lot less than the 30%+ advantage WARs and DRKs have over other jobs like DRG, NIN, THF, BLU or MNK.

[Caketime]

I'm being honest and frank with all of you. You've put blinders on and refused to acknowledge that there really is only a few ways to go about doing anything without getting "gimmicky". In all honestly you can really only have five to six jobs in any game before you run into balance issues. You have "Healer Specialist", "DD Specialist", "Tank Specialist" and then room for one or two Hybrids, you could also tack in "Magic DD Specialist" if the game's engine allows for that. That is why in FFXI you see the exact same specialist jobs over and over again. It's not some great developmental failure on SE's part as every MMO ever made has to deal with this.

There are only so many ways to "kill stuff, get loot".

Repeating "It's not going to work, balance is unpossible, just trust me on this" over and over isn't proving your point. Also, the imbalance here is a developmental failure on SE's part for deciding to create oodles of content focusing on doing as much damage as possible in a short time and then loading down a few jobs with abilities and weapon proficiencies/skills that do huge damage, while at the same time decreeing that all others shall suck it.

[Alhanelem]

My point is to illustrate the incredible childishness that people are demonstrating. You essentially asking for the impossible (make all 22 jobs relevant) then getting angry when that impossibility doesn't happen

Making every job relevant to a majority of content (not necessarily all) is not impossible. Nobody here is looking for perfection- only improvements.

Also, +1 to above post.