Nin are better tanks now?

[Alderin]

Firstly I would like to say that was a cleaner post and gives me more respect for your opinion.

There's no point in sugarcoating it, especially when they are spreading false information. You'll note that I'm not arrogant towards people with opinions that are actually opinions, nor to people who have intellectual questions. I am only painfully blunt to the ignorant people.

While his original post may not have been bang on the money - the major issue I had was the manner in which you responded to him.

You're arguing facts with anecdote. There was a night when I was farming seals and our BLM/BRD triggered grellow four times in a row. Notice that I am not parading around forums declaring that if you have no BRD main in your party that all your BLMs should sub BRD. Point is just because you have a lucky streak one night doesn't mean that you are proccing grellow 90% of the time with NIN + BRD.

How many of those 4x was a BRD spell? My original post stated that BRD and NIN don't really come up that often for me personally. If you have a BLM with you, unless you are unlucky - you are pretty much going to proc grellow. Sure BLM only accounts for about half of the spells, however from my experience it is a BLM spell most of the time. Sure it is more efficient to have the ability to proc every single spell, however I do believe if you have a BLM with you - you are reasonably safe.

Why is your MNK not sub WAR? NIN is an absolutely terrible sub for MNK and should not be considered except in the most dire of circumstances.

I don't have MNK levelled because I have NIN. Nor have I spent much time with a MNK tanking as being a NIN main, I am usually the tank of the group. I see more MNK/DNC then I do /NIN so that was what I was intending. I know /NIN is a terrible sub for MNK as the way a MNK tanks (correct me if I am wrong) is counter rate - which is ignored if you have shadows, massive HP and cure bombs.

What are you arguing for? That NIN is better than MNK for red? Yes, MNK is terrible for red, NIN is vastly superior. People care for percentages to maximize their efficiency with what they have available. That's why percentages are important.

I am on no specific side as I know that NIN and MNK are both great tanks. I don't believe one is "better" at tanking then the other because that depends on player skill, gear and atma of course. So I will be honest - don't really have an argument there. From your original post I had that "MNK's pwn" impression - In which I stand corrected. Yes MNK's suck at red, and ninjas have a lot more options in that department.

You didn't understand what I meant. Most of the time, blue is optional, an added bonus if you are able to proc it, but not the point of the run. For the cases that you are actively trying to get the blue proc items, you will enter Shinryuu/pop the NM during blunt o'clock, period. If you don't, you are doing it wrong and wasting your party's time, end of discussion.

Correct, and stand corrected. Either that or take a WAR with you. No argument there.

SE defines what is "right" in this situation by virtue of this specific topic being "I don't think you can proc grellow with subjobs." This little triad would be better served with the discussion of NIN + BLM onry. In the end, I don't care how anyone else farms their seals except for two groups: my party and the DNC/NIN + WHM/RDM duo that is popping my NM and taking 15 minutes to kill.

Fair call. Starting to tie up my shoes with this post anyway TBH

Oh dear. Stop trying to justify gimp subs. As I stated before, the only use for /DNC is for suboptimal party setups.
-Haste Samba: Does not make up for the DPS loss from JAs and DA.
-Healing Waltz: Kills your TP. Get a WHM that doesn't suck.
-The marginal healing gained from /DNC is completely irrelevant on nearly all abyssean NMs with a mage healer and completely irrelevant on all NMs with a WHM. The damage and triggers gained by going /WAR is so monumentally huge in abyssea that you are a fool if you don't go /WAR.
-Evasion +22 is completely irrelevant with a healer. If you find that you NEED that +22 Evasion, swapping gear is a better solution compared to gimping yourself.

Like I've stated, the ONLY time you /DNC is with a suboptimal party setup: solo, or NIN + WAR. If you have a mage with you, /WAR is always the better option.

Disagree with you there.
- I havn't done the math, but I see only a reasonably small difference in DPS as /WAR or /DNC with atmas. If you show me a parser sheet with the mentioned - /WAR with beserk up, and /DNC with haste samba up - There will be a difference but I can only guess that it will be a marginal one. Sure you hit a little harder but we are using Katanas here - they aren't the strongest weapons in the world. The damage you get from katanas is from RR when you crit hit most of the time.
- My WHM rocks, but as does healing waltz in those "oh shit" situations. What is 20TP when you get it back in one round of swinging katanas anyway?
- Yes I have gear swaps, yes I know how to be an evasion tank. Also, yes +22 evasion does help. Go sub /DNC, aggro something then stand there. See how much +20 evasion gives you. You evade a lot more then you do with /WAR. Means casting shadows less, which means less work for you.
- Lastly might I just remind you of potentially DNC's best ability - and that is the ability to stun. Stun adds more to survivability. Less "oh sh*t" situations, and more time to focus on actually killing.

/WAR is a great subjob, however your opinions on /DNC being a gimp subjob - are flawed.

The whole argument in and of itself was silly; NIN does not offer much for grellow and practically any job can "get away with" subbing NIN for grellow. The point of my post was to point out fallacies that "vajral" kept making. To be frank, a lot of the stuff he was spouting out was pretty terrible and needed to be corrected. There's a few other things in the thread that I don't agree with, but didn't feel the need to comment on.

Sure, and I do agree - Nin grellow procs are really irrelevant. However earlier in the post, didnt we establish /nin is a less then ideal sub for MNK? I believe the original argument was MNK + WHM vs. NIN + BLM. Which in a sense is a fine comparison due to the fact as NIN you don't truly need the excessive healing that a MNK needs. (Due to the nature in which a MNK tanks).

My in-game mentality is actually pretty different from my forum or twitter mentality. I have a less tolerance for stupidity when things are posted opposed to being said in-game. I suppose my reasoning is that you can better articulate your points in a forum post/tweet, rather than real time talking. But we're not hear to talk about my mentality, are we?

Well actually, the mentality in which you posted your original post is what forced me to respond to it. I couldn't care less for the actual argument at hand, I believe both sides have their better and not as good sides to them. So in actual fact, yes this post is about your mentality. As was my original post rebutting yours, as I disagree with the way you spoke your points.

For the record, I could care less if he goes and plays NIN the "wrong" way. The part I care about is his giving the NIN community a bad name by saying junk like NIN being a better blue proc than MNK or /DNC as a viable party sub.


P.S. MNKs are better tanks than NINs. It does not come down player's skill, gear or atma because we are talking about a class. Discussion cannot take into consideration a particular player's skill, gear or atmas because you can have a terrible MNK go up against a wonderful NIN. Just because that NIN is better than that MNK does not make NIN > MNK. It makes Player A > Player B. Same goes for truly amazing PUPs outparsing mediocre Perle wearing WARs. Doesn't mean that the class PUP is better than the class WAR, it means Perle WAR needs to quit FFXI.

Disagree. Yes a MNK + WHM can duo pretty much anything in Abyssea. NIN/DNC can solo a lottttt of junk that MNK would struggle solo'ing.

Are MNK's better at taking a hit? Yes of course. However are NIN's better at avoiding a hit / not getting hurt? Yep!
A MNK tank needs a healing method to kill something. A nin essentially doesn't.

Both classes are better at tanking certain mobs in certain situations. Neither out-do the other.