Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[Kristal]

Ultimately it'd be a new job in itself.

It's certainly not something PUP or MNK would use though, you're fighting with shields, you know those things neither job has skill in.

Neither does PLD. Remember, these are BATTLE shields, not shields. There is no reason why H2H or Guard skill cannot be used to wield them.
Besides, if MNK or PUP can wield 'swords' or 'axes' , they can wield 'shields' in the same manner as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Neither does PLD. Remember, these are BATTLE shields, not shields. There is no reason why H2H or Guard skill cannot be used to wield them.
Besides, if MNK or PUP can wield 'swords' or 'axes' , they can wield 'shields' in the same manner as well.

Battle Shield it's in the name. The only difference is they would equip two and hit with them, which they do with Shield Bash already.

lol, you can't call it a sword or axe simply because it is slightly pointed or rounded, also the Battle Shield goes on the wrist, not gripped in the hand.

[kingfury]

I really like the idea but, realistically, this would require a major work the likes of which you can expect from a new expansion. And the new one is already announced, and we won't get another one after that any time soon (if ever).

This whole idea would require not only new items, which would be pretty fast to design, but completely new in-game mechanics and animations.
I think the concept goes along very well with a NEW JOB, rather than just adding this playstyle to a current one.
For example name the new job "Gladiator", give him something like medium armour, two armoured shields, and this different playstile where you dualwield shields.

What would happen with the already existing shields? Would this new class be able to equip them? Or would he need specially designed shields? At which point it would be like adding a completely different weapon category like, say, Kusarigama.
New animations, new properties, new skill levels, new weapon skills.

Now multiply that for the 5 races and for the different genders and you get an idea of the huge amount of work it would require.


There are more chances to see thi concept re-used somehow in FFXIV than FFXI, honestly.
Nonetheless, kudos for your idea Kingfury, I liked it a lot.
(wish you could draw me as a galka as sexy as the one in your first illustration... /drool )

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Yep, there's no escaping the amount of work this would be for the Dev team to pull off ^^

The only true validation for this huge amount of work would be the possible fix to how PLDs tank and control enmity. Currently a WAR can pull hate in just about any battle setting with enough raw damage, and there's no tank in the game that can content with that fact without some major work done to the current battle system. The Dev team has expressed this fact as undesirable since they actually do want to keep PLDs tanking end game content, but they haven't in so many words told us how that's going to happen. They've told us that they will "adjust the enmity system" soon, but unless they completely redesign that system from the ground up to cater to PLDs, the same problem could be presented even after the adjustment.

I just think the solution lies in multiple places (the enmity system, and the way PLDs deal damage), and if they truly hope to get PLDs back in the Tanking business, they could use some new options for causing damage. It would be completely unorthodox, but for anyone that's been playing this game since it's introduction, seeing a job like PLD designed from the beginning to Tank be phased out of it's primary role due to limited damage output is just as unorthodox. I know I never saw it coming, but then again no one knew we'd ever hit level 99 either lol.

[Zhronne]

The only true validation for this huge amount of work would be the possible fix to how PLDs tank and control enmity.

I don't think this would fix anything and I'm going to explain why later.
But even if for a second we suppose it would, it would make other people angry.
We all know how hard it is in this game to balance different jobs for the same role like, say, tanking.
If this new tanking style would prove to be more effective, EVERYONE would swap to this and you would see people refusing to do content unless you have a dualshield Paladin tanking.
This would also make people who like classic PLD angry. SE already showed many times that they are unable to balance out a set of options.
In the opposite chance, if this new style would be less effective than the standard PLD one, then almost nobody would use it, and we're back to square one.

Furtherly exposing my point of view now.
I think it wouldn't fix the current issue with PLD being useless because that's not happening due to any faults or issues in the current JOB.
The problem is in the Content.
It's the content that promotes for several reasons either DD tanking style or just pure zerg, and when you have content like this of course PLD cannot possibly have a role.

To fix this they need to nerf certain buffs that are currently making alliances of DDs semi invincible, they need to avoid making people abuse of Atmas, powerful temp items and similar buffs, and they need to add different content that actually requires a tank to be killed.
Done this, PLD will become useful once again.

The issue with hate is another story. First there's the lame cap thing that fucked us up all through the abyssea days.
Then there's the issue with the damage/enmity conversion ratio (those formulae are balanced for the average numbers this game produced 8+ years ago) and then there's the issue with enmity generating job abilities which do not scale with level/job/traits but produce a fixed amount of volatile enmity.

Seeing at the picture with 2012 eyes, there are several stupid things in FFXI tanking mechanics that would never happen in other modern 2012 games.
I'm not championing the idea of making tanking trivial as it is in nowadays' wow for example (where you don't even have to bother about holding damage or stealing the tank's hate) because that would be lame.
But at the same time FFXI's standards need some major updates.
For instance if developers judge that some traits/ability/skill is FUNDAMENTAL and MANDATORY to allow a PLD to succeed in the role of tanking, then they need to make so those things are NATIVE to the job itself, and do not come from other subjobs or from specific pieces of equipment.
Things like these (subjobs, equipment, merits) are part of what should make your job easier and more performant, they should not be the mandatory minimum level to even be allowed to start doing your job.
I mean, up to a certain degree it's no problem, but I think sometimes these requirements are a bit too strict for PLD.

Like for example, in the past we had PLDs who had to focus on doing more damage because that was the only possible way they could efficiently hold hate efficiently.
That's wrong imho.
Doing damage should be the purpose of DDs. For instance SE could have easily fixed that, without making PLD do too much damage, by using a different conversion ratio for Damage/Enmity.
Like giving an additional multiplier to that conversion rate and that's it, 100 damage done from a PLD will generate much more enmity than 100 done from a DD, problem solved.
I think it's pretty much demonstrated that while the + and - enmity bonus are very much welcome and useful, they alone cannot be enough to achieve that (especially because of the lame caps and inventory woes we all have these days)


Anyway, wasn't attempting to dig your idea down. As I said I reeaaaaaally love it, I just think it's not bound to happen and it's sad because it would be really awesome.
Keep your fingers crossed for FFXIV? They might add a job like that in the future, who knows.
I personally am not a big fan of the current FFXIV core game system, but it seems to me the majority of FFXI players or ex-players like it a lot.

[Kristal]

Battle Shield it's in the name. The only difference is they would equip two and hit with them, which they do with Shield Bash already.

Kriegsmesser is a greatsword. What's in a name? Let's call it Grappler's Guard then.

lol, you can't call it a sword or axe simply because it is slightly pointed or rounded

Adargas and sainti are not 'slightly' pointed or rounded... these are full-blown piercing or slashing weapons designed to put additional thrust behind them by changing the way they are held. Sainti in particular are almost identical to these battle shields, minus the wristmounted guard.

also the Battle Shield goes on the wrist, not gripped in the hand.

Actually, it does both. Go back to page 4.

As a new kind of H2H sub-type, they would automatically be dual-wielded as well.

[kingfury]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

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You're correct about comparing them to our current weapons to get some footing on how balanced they would be for sure, but I was referring to the difficulty of fairly comparing this weapon to a sword, axe, or a standard shield based on it's unique niche functionality that combines two uses that makes it an obvious better candidate to tank with. It's true that new PLDs would take at look at the two options starting out:

• 1.(Sword + Standard Shield) or 2.(Battle Shield + Standard Shield)

They would be more inclined to choose the more defensive option since it would make more sense for a job that's sole purpose is defending. Just because this is true though, doesn't mean that it's a negative fact in a PLDs case since their current weapon set up(Sword + Standard Shield) can't compete damage wise in the games current state at high level content. This weapon would not phase out Swords for every other job, but it would offer a very real contender for a PLDs main weapon choice when considering being an effective tank. Now does that mean that PLDs would never choose to use a sword again should this weapon be introduced? I would say it would be based on the player's play style and battle situation since Swords would still have unique weapon skills that could be helpful against certain types of monsters. That, and the option to use a Sword + Battle Shield would still be a unique and possibly effective NEW option available to PLDs.

As it stands, a PLD has very few real options to choose from in terms of altering their current fate, where as a WAR has a handful of Damage Dealing options to alternate through. A WAR can still choose to use Axes if they wanted to deal damage since it was designed to do so (which was the valid choice a few years ago), but as the game has changed and new options become available, a WAR can choose another option like a Great Axe to deal damage with. Unfortunately, a PLD can't make the same choices. That's what this concept is at the foundation, another option.

I really appreciate the thought and consideration everyone here has put into shooting as many holes into this concept and questions for the sole reason of trying to help make it a serious concept to add to this great game, so know that all of your great detailed comparison data is very welcome Thanks

[kingfury]

I don't think this would fix anything and I'm going to explain why later.
But even if for a second we suppose it would, it would make other people angry.
We all know how hard it is in this game to balance different jobs for the same role like, say, tanking.
If this new tanking style would prove to be more effective, EVERYONE would swap to this and you would see people refusing to do content unless you have a dualshield Paladin tanking.
This would also make people who like classic PLD angry. SE already showed many times that they are unable to balance out a set of options.
In the opposite chance, if this new style would be less effective than the standard PLD one, then almost nobody would use it, and we're back to square one.

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As true as this is (the Gold Rush effect, and folks getting pissy about having to adjust lol), it was exactly the same thing that happened when the Devs wanted to push WARs back to using Great Axes instead of Axes. I remember being especially slow to make the transition back when it happened cause I had put considerable work into to making the best Axe gear together that I possibly could and was very satisfied with my damage output at the time... well until I saw the new damage potential of using Great Axes after the adjustments lol. So I truly know this to be accurate, but if you asked me to move back to using Axes, you'd be hard pressed to force me to give up my beloved Ukonvasara. That, and most everyone would look at a WAR like he's a noob for not having an epic Great Axe when starting a battle. It's a harsh truth, but it's just one of those things that happens sometimes in the name of changing the game.

Furtherly exposing my point of view now.
I think it wouldn't fix the current issue with PLD being useless because that's not happening due to any faults or issues in the current JOB.
The problem is in the Content.
It's the content that promotes for several reasons either DD tanking style or just pure zerg, and when you have content like this of course PLD cannot possibly have a role.

To fix this they need to nerf certain buffs that are currently making alliances of DDs semi invincible, they need to avoid making people abuse of Atmas, powerful temp items and similar buffs, and they need to add different content that actually requires a tank to be killed.
Done this, PLD will become useful once again.

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This is really true with our current content. My question is however, what if PLD was added to the lineup of heavy hitters against the current content? Would it put them in a negative position if they could deal damage closer to what a MNK could produce while still utilizing everything else they have to generate enmity? Would spamming high spike damage weapon skills + Curative Spells + Enmity generating spells give them a valid role in our current content?

The issue with hate is another story. First there's the lame cap thing that fucked us up all through the abyssea days.
Then there's the issue with the damage/enmity conversion ratio (those formulae are balanced for the average numbers this game produced 8+ years ago) and then there's the issue with enmity generating job abilities which do not scale with level/job/traits but produce a fixed amount of volatile enmity.

Seeing at the picture with 2012 eyes, there are several stupid things in FFXI tanking mechanics that would never happen in other modern 2012 games.
I'm not championing the idea of making tanking trivial as it is in nowadays' wow for example (where you don't even have to bother about holding damage or stealing the tank's hate) because that would be lame.
But at the same time FFXI's standards need some major updates.
For instance if developers judge that some traits/ability/skill is FUNDAMENTAL and MANDATORY to allow a PLD to succeed in the role of tanking, then they need to make so those things are NATIVE to the job itself, and do not come from other subjobs or from specific pieces of equipment.
Things like these (subjobs, equipment, merits) are part of what should make your job easier and more performant, they should not be the mandatory minimum level to even be allowed to start doing your job.
I mean, up to a certain degree it's no problem, but I think sometimes these requirements are a bit too strict for PLD.

Like for example, in the past we had PLDs who had to focus on doing more damage because that was the only possible way they could efficiently hold hate efficiently.
That's wrong imho.
Doing damage should be the purpose of DDs. For instance SE could have easily fixed that, without making PLD do too much damage, by using a different conversion ratio for Damage/Enmity.
Like giving an additional multiplier to that conversion rate and that's it, 100 damage done from a PLD will generate much more enmity than 100 done from a DD, problem solved.
I think it's pretty much demonstrated that while the + and - enmity bonus are very much welcome and useful, they alone cannot be enough to achieve that (especially because of the lame caps and inventory woes we all have these days)

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Agreed. Which is why I believe this weapon would go hand and hand with adjustments to the many other system components and could be a win win for PLDs. I would never think that it could solve everything that's wrong with system of things alone including the way the play style has changed to meet new content. If nothing else, it would offer some new variety to how PLDs tank and deal damage.

Anyway, wasn't attempting to dig your idea down. As I said I reeaaaaaally love it, I just think it's not bound to happen and it's sad because it would be really awesome.
Keep your fingers crossed for FFXIV? They might add a job like that in the future, who knows.
I personally am not a big fan of the current FFXIV core game system, but it seems to me the majority of FFXI players or ex-players like it a lot.

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Trust me, I'm more than use to opposing reasons as to why new ideas and concepts would most likely not get realized lol. I'm far more entertained at the chance to offer the Devs new ideas and concepts to a game that I've loved for so long, so it's very cool to receive any feedback on such ideas. ^.^ /

Thanks for the feedback

[kingfury]

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look

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I can understand how the "punching" imagery in the animation could mislead you to thinking that these weapons would be primarily used that way, but that was just one of the many ways these weapons could be used to cause damage As to the question of why a PLD would use these weapons, the simple answer would be because of the native affinity and A+ skill rating PLDs have that would really bring the "shield" functionality coupled with these weapons to life like no other job could. One can't help but to be jealous at how often a PLD's shield can actually trigger versus any other shield wielding job, so with this weapon in hand, the weapon's design would be fully realized during combat. That, and it was designed concept wise to be available to jobs that have a native shield skill rating, so that's PLD, WAR, WHM, RDM, THF, and BST.

Since conceptually these shields could have blunt, sharp or spiked edges, everything from punching to slashing to bashing attacks would be used to cause damage to an enemy. I tried to capture those attacks in the second animation where the weapon skill used each of these types of attacks (the Galka starts with a punching/piercing attack, then uses a rising bash attack to the enemies face, jumps back to use a charging slash uppercut that transitions into another bash to the head). All of these types of attacks would be used in combination, so it would be far more than punching shields.

As far as the gritty and primitive look of the bare chest tank look, that was created to be the foundation of where the fighting style originates based on the back story I've attached to the style itself. It indeed is an opposing image of the "Knight in shinning armor" concept we've come to know up to this point, but I figured a more brutal concept could be used to match the brutal style of fighting with these shields. I wanted the style to feel primal and raw compared to the very "Conservative" fighting style of the Knight-like PLDs. A WAR would be a perfect match imagery wise since they are based on a similar "Raw" foundation as damage dealers, so I tried to offer that option to a PLD. If a new job was created to wield these battle shields, I could easily see PLDs subbing that new job to gain the benefits of this fighting style while maintaining their polished look lol.