TH activation rumour

[Babekeke]

Question: Does having TH on "pulling gear" ad the full TH value?
Answer: Yes
Methodology: Pulled a mob in Dynamis in full TH gear, proceeded to melee monster until I saw a 'TH proc', it was always 1 higher than the TH level of the pulling gear.

Correct, even if the ranged attack misses, and you swap into tp gear before attacking the mob.

Problem: I sometimes have 2+ monsters on me; pulling resulted from just changing target, and using the ranged macro at that time was inefficient.

My solution to this is simply that if I have a link, I generally want to swap to eva gear anyway. My eva gear is full TH so I just make sure the first hit on the link is in Eva gear still.

Question: Does TH gear add to the frequency of procs on monsters?
Answer: Observations lean towards yes.
Methodology: This is shakey at best but me and my girlfriend both went out as thieves to kill Ruszors, she was in my "Dynamis build", while I was full DD. We'd typically fight different monsters, and in the hour we farmed I proc'd 4 times to her 21.

This confirms the theories of myself and others.

Problems with this:
1) Not all procs are visible. (WS etc...)

I have an issue with this...
SE announced that TH can proc during WS about 6 months ago iirc? Since then I have NEVER EVER EVER had my TH go up by 2 when fighting a mob, where the first proc had occurred during a WS. Am I the only one?

My current set that seems to allow me to get at least one "promotion" per monster is as follows.

Thokcha(evasion), Rapidus Sax(for the haste really), Chakram(Agi and Evasion)
Zelus, Triecel, Suppa, Brutal
Thaumas, Asn.Armlets+2, Rajas, Eponas
Atheling, Twilight Belt, Raider's Coulotte, Raider's Poulaines.

If you make a set to gimp yourself melee-wise specifically trying to get 1 TH proc, just full-time thief's knife and start with a higher base TH. Personally I full-time Thief's Knife (in Dynamis), and wear TH gear until I proc, then I return to regular TP set to kill.
Also remember that killing faster than you can proc !! is negative in dynamis, since !! gives you more than even the highest TH.

Either way, it's full haste, full TH, decent evasion.

Apart from Thief's knife >.>

So my current question I am working on is this:

Is it better to kill faster right now at a lower TH? Or take a slight hit on damage/kill speed for more TH?

Faster at lower TH.

Proc !! > kill speed > TH

Outside of Dynamis however, or if you're solo... My question stands with a little more relevance, but the times where you're grinding through a stream of trash mobs for drops these days are pretty non-existant; and where relevant the boost to TH-proc from SA/TA (+/- Feint) is more than sufficient. (Especially when SA/TA is now coupled with TH gear).

TL/DR: If you trust my judgment... TP in TH gear on trash mobs if you need drops from them, and find a set that caps haste/TH. SA/TA in TH gear when you can on "important stuff".

For trash, unless the respawn is longer than it takes me to kill them all, I'll tag with TH then zerg them down. For the likes of Aspid and other ground kings/sky kings or anything else that it can take you a long time to get a new pop for (or long respawn, like Tiamat)... full-time TH.

[Arcon]

I sold my Thief's Knife when I was done with Behemoths and I have never needed it since. Unless there's a particularly rare mob with a certain drop you wanna get, there's really no need for it. Get TH6 on once and then kill quickly. Won't regret it, I don't.

[Babekeke]

I sold my Thief's Knife when I was done with Behemoths and I have never needed it since. Unless there's a particularly rare mob with a certain drop you wanna get, there's really no need for it. Get TH6 on once and then kill quickly. Won't regret it, I don't.

Unless I'm solo, killing it quickly is generally not an issue anyway as there are DDs there with empys/relics that are going to do that job irrelevant of what I'm wearing.

If I am solo, unless I just procced a mob in dyna on the first proc, 1 WS is going to kill it pretty much, so what do I gain from a better off-hand knife?

Answer: very little.

What do I gain from Thief's knife?

Answer: also very little.

six and 2 threes

[CapriciousOne]

Please post your testing of this, or stop blowing hot air

Sorry for the delay in response been busy as of late to check these forums but personally I am too impatient to sit down take notes and post on here for your convenience or to convince you or anybody else of anything. From what I seen even with me posting the testing these forums have a way of trying to find someway to discredit any postings anyway.

If you really want to see you can just do your own testing and see for yourself since you seem to already decided in your mind that it isnt a possibility of being correct even a little bit. In fact I think I even read this somewhere if I can find it again.

At this point of end game development everybody should have enough stat boosting gear to test this on thier own rather easily. The main factor in additional effects on weapons procing is the relative level of the mob to your job and maybe even the level of the weapon in question. This can be easily and quickly noticed with magian weapons since most are level 75 -99 depending on your level of progression through the trials.

You can easily test it out by counting the number of procs before the death of mobs that are between your weapon/job level and again on mobs below the level of your weapon. It will clearly show that you will get a higher number of activatations of the additional effect on mobs below the weapon level than above it.

Afterwards you can also follow it up by equipping a gear set with little or no stat boost to INT for elemental based additional effects and MND for status effect based additional effects. This should also demonstratethat the number of times the status effect additional effects proc while it is actively in effect on the mob before it wears off will increase as well ad the damage amount of elemental based additional effects will increase as well. Now whether or not the difference is huge or not is debatable since people expectations and standards vary greatly.

You can even take it a step further if you have Dark Knight leveld high enough and utilize the Absorb-INT/MND stat spells or WHM Boost and RDM Gain stat spells. Now how much INT/MND it takes to make a noticeable difference is another issue as well but obviously more is better.

Now I will recant a little about delay being a factor but only in the numerical sense that more swings equal more procs so additional effects on daggers will have more chances of procing than say a greatsword or scythe with or without haste but the move long winded response is a greater factor than delay in my humble opinion.

[Arcon]

If I am solo, unless I just procced a mob in dyna on the first proc, 1 WS is going to kill it pretty much, so what do I gain from a better off-hand knife?

Answer: very little.

Very noticeable. How fast you kill the mob does not matter in the calculations at all, even if you take a mob that takes ten minutes to die. Because to be able to kill a mob with one weapon skill, you need to get 100% TP first. The melee phase is just spread out over a larger mob pool on average, but it's still there and still in the same proportion to the WS damage. Also, there's offhand weapons that can significantly improve your WS damage as well (STR Thokcha or Aluh Jambiya for example).

And your answer seems to be limited by your playstyle. I do almost everything except new group events on THF. I tanked Oldin with it, all sky gods and several Jailers, I regularly farm Limbus and Salvage, and very rarely do mobs die with one weapon skill. I don't do Dynamis, so it may be different there, but even if it is, that's still a very limited point of view.

[Babekeke]

And your answer seems to be limited by your playstyle. I do almost everything except new group events on THF. I tanked Oldin with it, all sky gods and several Jailers, I regularly farm Limbus and Salvage, and very rarely do mobs die with one weapon skill. I don't do Dynamis, so it may be different there, but even if it is, that's still a very limited point of view.

Dynamis IS very different, or at least it can be. You don't want to kill the mobs before you proc it. Some mobs can be a pain in the ass to proc. Some mobs are so much of a pain in the ass to proc, that they are so close to death by the time you procced that you don't even use WS because you got them to 5% then turned.

Generally speaking, unless you get 2-3 mobs in a row that proc first JA, you don't get much out of a better off-hand. The occasional fast proc can be countered with reverse flourish for a fast kill.

Outside of dynamis:

Trash mob farming - this really depends on how much HP they have. Some mobs will have just the right amount of HP that meleeing in thief's knife to 100% then WS will kill a mob. In this case, using a better off-hand will mean that you melee to 100% then either over-kill with ws, or continue to melee a little more to kill mob then use ws on next mob. This won't work out much (if at all) faster, so you might as well stay with thief's knife.
If however, meleeing to 100%TP then WS doesn't quite kill the mob, in this case it is more efficient to use a better off-hand, if it now allows you to kill a mob in 100%TP then ws.
Another instance, is if the mob you are fighting has high accuracy. Now it might be more efficient (particularly if solo) to use an eva dagger to get hit less, or a DD or Oynos dageger for faster kill speed to get hit less.

Limbus: Solo I use eva dagger, in a duo/small group I use triplus. Here, gimping kill speed (in some areas at least) can mean needing to choose a TE over an items chest, so you just lost any benefit that extra TH gave you anyway.

Salvage: I've never solo'd salvage, but usually duo with a BST. I use thief's knife off-hand unless it looks like we'll run short on time (never happened so far, but can get unlucky with a ranged cell). Killing faster than 99 minutes doesn't net you any reward other than moving along to your next money-making event, since there are a finite number of mobs that can drop alexandrite.

Abyssea: This really depends on how many other DDs we have, how quickly we can farm new pops etc. If we have so many DDs that my damage equates to only 5% of the overall damage, what difference does it make if I swap out for thief's knife and TH gear and reduce my damage to 4% of the overall damage? Other times I might just be farming pop items for others to go ahead and pop the red proc mobs. In this case I'll use a DD off-hand unless the drop rate falls frustratingly low.

Different situations call for different actions.

[Delvish]

Interesting. So the general TH debate will now turn from full-timing THF knife or not, to full-timing TH gear or not. Tag and swap works for killing speed, but when it is something big, more TH could go a long way. After all, thanks to the general testing it seems TH does infact proc more frequently based upon current equipped TH levels. The comparison of 4 TH procs with TP gear to 21 TH procs with TH gear is pretty substantial, so it really comes down to how much those higher levels of TH help. Going to need some considerable numbers testing to confirm.

[Komori]

This might be a really noobish question but is the "fight on lightsday" or "Boost-CHR" rumor or fact? I remember being with a few mercenaries once and they believed fighting monsters on lightsday and boosting CHR also allowed you to get more TH procs overall and I know that Assassin's Armlets +2 have CHR+7? On them, is there perhaps any connection? Sorry, if it's already common knowledge or not but I wanted to know!

[Nawesemo]

Bump for curiosity, and I dig rumors vs knowledge threads.

[Arcon]

This might be a really noobish question but is the "fight on lightsday" or "Boost-CHR" rumor or fact? I remember being with a few mercenaries once and they believed fighting monsters on lightsday and boosting CHR also allowed you to get more TH procs overall and I know that Assassin's Armlets +2 have CHR+7? On them, is there perhaps any connection? Sorry, if it's already common knowledge or not but I wanted to know!

I would bet big chunks of money that this is complete bullshit. Sadly it's almost impossible to prove/disprove it. Would require lots if dedicated testing for something I'm pretty much sure is wrong, and I'm sure other people feel the same way. So unlikely it will ever get actually tested.