Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

[Alhanelem]

No, at that point, you should have come WHM.

You could have, but maybe you don't have WHM. Personally, I don't, and don't ever intend to. However, if that extra support is needed, it is very effective. Think outside the goddang box instead of submitting to the cookie cutter pigeon holes, and you will find creative solutions to problems. Of course for any job that isn't WHM that has any healing capacity, you would just say "you should have come WHM." That doesn't discount that those other jobs have their place (either a WHM isn't avialable, or you want the additional benefits of some other job- for instance, while doing this on DNC, I may be near the mob with my back to it, supporting by using steps and healing, without feeding the mob any TP)

... At any rate, it looks like most people would agree that leeching is only an issue if someone was invited to the party with the understanding that they would fight, then they go AFK and don't come back (except whenver prodded to see if they're AFK, where they suddenly spring into action for a few minutes and go afk again). It's not a problem when the person was specifically invited to fill party space and either pay gil or contribute by opening boxes.

[Asymptotic]

It's not about finding creative solutions to problems. I'm perfectly capable of that, thank you. The thing you fail to realize is that DNC healing is not limited in any way by its TP gain. You'd still be stuck with shared timers, and you still should have brought a WHM.

It's perfectly fine to play in weird, sub-optimal setups. That's your choice. But people are stupid. If you suggest them, they'll think they're good ideas, when really, you just want a lazy subpar workaround because you don't want to level or bring a WHM.

I would consider any DNC using sub-optimal atma setups (regain atmas) because they think they're somehow limited by their TP generation rate (they're not if geared properly) a leech.

We've established many times over in this thread that leeching is an abomination that should be perished from Vana'diel. SO, no regain slow gimp-WHM wannabe DNCs.

[Dragoy]

I will mainly reply to only the first post, and not the derailing or what ever it is that has been going on since. It would seem that the topic is about 'leeching experience/limit points' and not so much about 'leeching' in events like Voidwatch, or the upcoming Legion.

These are two very different kinds of 'leeching' and I wouldn't really compare them to each other and the reasons may or may not follow.

Firstly, 'leeching in an experience/limit points party'.
I think it's more just the way to level up now, instead of actually leeching and is widely accepted. If there are actually people who just go away or fool around without actually contributing at all while it is expected, it's up to the group to take action (such as let it pass or kick the individual). This (not helping the group in any way) is also the only way it can hurt you, as a member of said group, that I can think of.

I personally do not think it is good game-design. For one, the level limit for entering Abyssea should be at least around the 60-75 region but that's not how the game developer-team feels so this is how it is now. They also conceived the 'book-burns' which I never took part of, and it's just as 'bad design' as Abyssea is on that regard.
Sure, there were "Astral-burns" and such back before Abyssea, which was basically abusing a game-weakness, but not seen as an issue either, but it would seem that the developers finally decided to go with this and 'skip' a lot of the old content.

The funny thing is that I never was much for partying myself, and rather went solo/duo\trio from day one some 5 years ago, and still do. Obviously it took me a long time to level up back then, before Abyssea (where I was in an EXP-party 1 or 2 times, ever). Even so, the not-so-many-times I did level up with a regular group I did enjoy those far more than the parties that exist nowadays (yeah, I don't do them but I know I would not enjoy them the same way). One important aspect being meeting people, as others have mentioned. Sure, you meet them in Abyssea, too, but it tends to be quite different from a 6 person party (read: crowded) and relationships likely wont establish in the same amount as they used to.

I certainly can't imagine myself starting this game now, and leveling up the way most players do now. It does not seem fun, and yes, leveling up is part of a game like this, and should be... I daresay balanced! For the older players it is convenient fersure. We did it the old way, and I seriously am glad I did instead of starting now. It seems quite horrid, actually, and you probably wont see me suggesting this game to anyone unless they are really, really interested (but even so, a word of caution may be in place) and/or they have played the game before.

It's things like this that make me glad that I can level up my jobs perfectly fine (and relatively fast) by just myself using two characters (usually one is 'leeching' on the other). And no, I do not use 'windower' or any such 'enhancements' that are also known as 'cheats'. :b
I can also do anything I want to do now with just me, myself, and a friend or few. This does obviously not include Legion, and I can only defeat some of the very first 'tier' Voidwatched monsters, but I have no desire to do those so it matters not.

I don't play for the game, I play for the friend or few that are still left there.

The whole 'skipping the EXPing part' seems rather funny, because it reminds me of another game where I am a Gamemaster in, which was shut-down some time ago. For the final days, we would just do what ever the players wanted, and one of the most requested things was to be able to be of the maximum level because they never got to experience it (even though leveling up in that game was also very fast if done in a certain way). That game had/has a lot smaller community, very small, so it can't really be compared to FFXI at all in that sense, but it's like someone at the SqEX said that: "OK! Let's give them a fast way to level up and quick rewards to fool around with as which ever job they might want to within a short period of time before we pull-the-plug. Should be a fun ride, but just in case, let's add some Gargantuan time-sink and randomness as a bumper for those that complete it too fast!" So yeah, that would be sort of the same thing, but in a much larger scale.

While I say that I don't like the idea of 'skipping the EXPing part', I do agree that with 20 jobs, it does get old, and as stated, it is only the most fun for maybe the first few times. Nevertheless, I for one enjoyed joining my friends to level up another job if they happened to do that. It might be interesting if there was some sort of a bonus added for every job you leveled up to make the next one go faster?
Either way, I enjoyed feeling more powerful as I learned new job abilities and got access to better equipment, which sometimes could be a bit of a frustration due to either item availability or/and their price.
Now, all that can be skipped though not that it was always fun to find out the equipment you wanted came with a price-tag with too many numbers, or wasn't available at all. In a way this is a blessing as well, because such gear is even more non-existent than ever before.

In short(?), I think that new content should not make everything that was before completely obsolete because the old stuff will then just 'be there', taking space. There are so many things in the game, such as evoliths, monsters no one hunts any longer, pointless battlefields, that seem like a total waste of space and effort because of the production/direction\development decisions and altogether strengthens the image of a 'final ride'. Perhaps that's what the 'big plans' for the 10th anniversary is.

Ha! But I digress.

As for 'leeching' in events like Legion and whatnot, I don't really care if people in my group were to be not 'gear-swapping' and/or using the best or even average stuff they could be (whether it was for a 1% or 50% difference), because as I said, I don't play for the game. What is more important is that he/she\other does their best, and has fun while doing it!
If they're completely messing things up, or just doing nothing, well, then they shouldn't probably be there, if they are not willing to work for success but there has never been a time that I have been angry for someone messing up a fight in a way or another. It's really not that serious (for me). Again, it may mostly be due to the fact that I mainly played with my friends, only, but even on those occasions I did play/do play with strangers, I really don't care that much.

By playing alone and/or with a friend or few, I avoid all these problems so it's really not an issue to me. ^^;


In short(!), yes, leeching anything is rude if the leecher and leechee have not agreed upon it. If they have, however, I don't see a problem since that's what the developers made the game to be like and I doubt it's going to change. As mentioned, though, I don't agree it should be like this, and I don't do it myself (unless leeching on oneself counts).
There was one time when I was 'pulling' for a 'Fell Cleave' party with our Linkshell, for about 8 hours, with my other character idle. When I went to bed, I left myself there on another job so while I was indeed AFK and leeching at that point for I think 5 levels worth (from 73 to 78 I think), the 8 or so hours I was running around luring monsters about were more than adequate trade-off for that, I would think.

That's the only 'cleave' party I ever was in. After that, I've just used Dominion or other ways to level up me, myself, and my friends.

I never did quite understand getting levels without actually playing (e.g. 'botting' or leeching while totally AFK without any work put into it like in the example above) and that goes with other stuff too, like 'botting' for skills, fish, anything. I don't support paying Gil or whatever for it and then going AFK, either, but I wouldn't judge someone for doing it. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but the game allows it, and if that is their way to 'play', that's not my problem. ^^;


As a side-note, I wonder how people who 'worry' so much about how others play the game, and what they post around forums, can keep themselves going.
Doesn't it amount to a lot of frustration, headache, and hair pulled? :V


Wrote a lot.

Wrote a lot more actually but then I noticed I was writing a book about something pretty much irrelevant so it's the heavily cut edition now. >:Ð

Blubb ! !! !


[b]Edit:[b]

Added a little bit to the "In short(!)" section.

[Kristal]

Two things I hate about leechers:
1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<
2. Skill-up complaints on this forum by leechers... ("I leveled a job to 99 in 9 hours, but now I can't hit the broad side of a behemoth!?! Fix it, SE!!")

[Alhanelem]

The thing you fail to realize is that DNC healing is not limited in any way by its TP gain.

DNC healing absolutely is limited by TP gain. Maybe not if you have maximum haste and never use steps, otherwise, you will eventually run out of TP

It's perfectly fine to play in weird, sub-optimal setups. That's your choice. But people are stupid. If you suggest them, they'll think they're good ideas, when really, you just want a lazy subpar workaround because you don't want to level or bring a WHM.

They ARE good ideas, when the conditions are right. Is it the number one, best idea for everything? Of course not. Choosing not to play WHM is not choosing to be lazy, it's choosing to do what's fun and enjoyable over what's not. This is an MMORPG with thousands of players. It's not required of everyone to have all 20 jobs leveled up to 99 with full gear sets for all of them. You may have forgotten that because it's relatively easy to level up a job now. Only an elitist would demand the maximally optimal conditions for everything. Something doesn't have to be perfectly 100% optimal to work just fine and be a good, workable idea. Players do not HAVE to level up WHM to heal, players do not HAVE to level up MNK or WAR to DD or tank, players do not HAVE to level up BLM to cast damaging magic, players don't even HAVE to level up THF to get any TH anymore. If people listen to you, they'll think they HAVE to do everything the same way in order to enjoy the game or be rewarded, and that's not true.

So hey, all of you who haven't gotten all jobs 99! You're all lazy bums! Get out there and don't play any other part of the game until you have them all done and have amazing gear sets for all of them, because everyone will hate you if you're "sub-optimal!"

Leeching is hardly optimal either, but people, even elitists, do that all the time. That doesn't make any sense to me, it sounds like not practicing what one preaches.

We've established many times over in this thread that leeching is an abomination that should be perished from Vana'diel. SO, no regain slow gimp-WHM wannabe DNCs.

Umm, no, we haven't established that. Also, this wasn't used in an EXP party, it was used on abyssea HNMs. I'd like to see you waltz every time the recast comes up against the game's most dangerous NMs that people generally avoid having more than 1-2 people meleeing on at a time and not run out of TP.

Leeching is doing nothing when you could be and are expected to be doing something. Leeching is NOT simply being less than 100% perfectly optimal while still actively participating. Your definition of leeching describes 99% of players who cannot obtain optimal gear or haven't been playing long enough to obtain it.

I take the jobs I play very seriously, and I do gear them all up as best I can. I also try to find creative and effective ways to use them where people don't expect. I'll ask "Is this possible?" then try it. "Hey cool, it is!" Just because one chooses to stick to a limited set of jobs, does not mean they're being "lazy."

1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<

hey, it's their money, they can do what they want with it.

[Arcon]

1. Pay-for-leech shouts in Jeuno.. the sheer stupidity of people to pay for something they can get for 'free' >_<

300k for 3h is not expensive. It's not even cheap. It's actually profitable for the person paying. Unless the party sucked royally, you will get more than 120k cruor, which is worth more than the 300k you paid going in. So you gained EXP and gil or cruor, in either case worth more than what you paid going in, all while you were afk, asleep or at work or whatever. So how exactly is that a bad deal?

[Tamoa]

Leeching is doing nothing when you could be and are expected to be doing something. Leeching is NOT simply being less than 100% perfectly optimal while still actively participating. Your definition of leeching describes 99% of players who cannot obtain optimal gear or haven't been playing long enough to obtain it.

Let me clarify since I feel this is partially directed at what I've been saying in previous posts in this thread.

I do not expect everybody I play with to be perfectly geared - i.e. being 100% optimal. I'm not saying you're a leech in a group setting if you don't have perfect ws gear, perfect nuke gear, perfect cure set, perfect damage mitigation gear. As long as you use what you have gear wise, and work towards improving what you can, that's absolutely fine with me. But if you are lazy and arrogant, using gimp gear, not using gearswap macros (which are there so we can in fact swap gear to improve performance) and just generally massively underperforming being dead weight to the group - then you are leeching.

[Kaych]

Figure its time for a friendly debate about this, since "Leeching" is working its way into end game.
All i ask is keep your opinions clean of insults.

As most know I dislike leeching. Now this is the art of leeching, I do not hate the players who leech. I find that it is rude to leech because your not contributing in earning the exp, or items you obtain. Your lack of effort makes other work harder then they might want to on a video game they use for relaxation. In the early days of ffxi you got kicked, insulted, had insulting shouts made about you for leeching. Heck go away for 5 min longer then stated you would get people insulting you left and right.

In my personal experience, both past and present, leeching is bad. I seen alliences go from insane exp rates to trickling exp because 30-50% of the party stop fighting/contributing. It does suck joining an aby pt and due to leeching mages.. get no TE. What i'm looking for is proof of leeching being good? How it is helping ffxi?

Well, I think that leeching makes people bad players. When I hear a THF thats lvl 40 saying "What is SATA?" Then that person dunno how to do their job.

I was in Abby the other day and this insanely bad RDM had no clue how to heal. When I confronted him and said: "As soon as someone looses HP, you need to heal. Also, the next TP move will do 1k dammage, so make sure you keep us above 1k HP so we don't get 1-shotted".

We died like flies ofc... over and over... and still he told me "I know how to do my job!" Maybe he was high or something, who knows, but the point is: in the old days you wouldnt make it passed Dunes with that lack of skill and bad attitude. Nowdays you get a bunch of people who have no clue how to do their job up to lvl 99. If SE made Abby for 65+, this wouldnt be so much a problem. But no matter how hard you whine to SE, they extreeeeemly rarely listen ^_- (except for Camate <3)

Now to the good thing about leeching: "".

[Eri]

DNC healing absolutely is limited by TP gain. Maybe not if you have maximum haste and never use steps, otherwise, you will eventually run out of TP

I on one hand can aussure you that every Dnc in their right mind have 25.6% Haste in Gear around 48% Dual Weild and whatever Store TP they can get their Hands on.

You are Never. Nerver. Are Limited by Tp Even if you not actively Meele. With the current design of Dnc recasts are the only Limit. and its a Limit that doesnt need to be changed as in Split recasts. Lowering the Waltz recast for the main Job might be in order.... we got a Discussion on the Dnc forum you may wanna join.

Now to the Leeching Topic at hand.

Didn't read everything here. Just Posting my Opinion.

First are a few Question:

Do you wanna play the game?

Do you want to be proud of what you have?

Do you want to be helpfull?


If the answer to any of these is no. Your probably Leeching.

Either Exp, Gear or whatnot. While Leeching may not concern others (as in: Everyone plays their own Game).

Its a concern in an MMO since PPL that are trying to stay 'Legit' have a lot of trouble keeping that up, with slow progress.
On the other hand with Abyssea in mind. Its so easy to get Exp in a none Leeching Way..... (unless Abyssea is considderd Leeching XD)
Afking for more than 10 min in a PT is just sorry unless its a real Emergency.... but you shoulda dropped for that XD

[Feynman]

Still once more that is their choice to go straight to 99, to stay in a few zones, and apparently not explore (what..?).
I am not seeing your point. Are you trying to say people should branch out more and move camps every 5 levels and waste time like in the old days?


As for the hostile nature of people on forums comment. Youmustbenewhere.jpg.

People by nature can tend to be hostile especially when debating what some consider to be right vs wrong.

No I'm not saying things should "be like the old days". But I'm saying if I new player wants to take his/her time exploring the game and coming to know it in something resembling the way we did (which is impossible I acknowledge), then the established/capped player base shouldn't put pressure on them to hurry up and get 99. Which I have seen. Often. And as I've mentioned I've seen this mentality push new players off the game after a month or two because they are not enjoying themselves! And yes in the end it is their choice and they choose to ignore what their ls-mates are telling them they need to do, but as Shadowsong rightly said "The game does not exist in a vacuum". A new player that is being told by most people that they need to do this can easily feel pressured into it and do whatever they are told hoping that it will get fun eventually. Problem seems to be once they get 99 they still have no clue what they are doing, what the world is like, can't take airships, chocobos, or any of things that made the world feel exciting to us when we were learning it. Then they quit. This does not serve them, the linkshell, the community, or anybody. At all.

As for, forums are hostile get over it, no. Not all forums are hostile.

And your last comment should say arguing, not debating. A healthy debate should not be hostile. The problem is that often they become that way because at least one of the people involved in the debate don't understand the nature of techniques of debate.

EDIT: And if you insist that people can't express opposing viewpoints without being hostile, please look at any post by Dragoy I've ever seen on here. I'd like to think that I remain non-hostile, but in the case that you don't agree, I truly believe he does.