Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Karbuncle]

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.

Well yah, We've moved on from this idea. Even me.

That said, We already have Triple Attack II, and any job Adjustment, unless its a nerf, Is worth the Devs time. Considering their time has no tangible value.

[Fupafighter]

Don't think sam can use grim cuirrass +1 lol...OR i would have one.

[Motenten]

Eh, it's probly for her war or drk or something then. They were just items I remembered offhand that she's put a lot of effort into getting.

[Aana]

Honestly, this entire issue will forever be shrouded in 'grey area' territory.

Thf currently: Does some damage. Not as much as top tier super buffed up 60TP, return 80% hasted, cor/brd buffed warriors. Does more damage than a full support (Brd for example).


No one says they should do THAT much damage as a superman war. Good we agree. No one says we should be on Brd level. Good we agree. So all anyone fighting for increased damage can say is "we dont do enough damage because our utility isnt very useful". The forest will always get lost for the trees because trying to pin down how much damage is 'enough' is 100% opinion and no way to quantitatively determine how much 'damage' thf deserves to have and in which of a myriad of situations it should apply.

Its WAY to fluffy and entirely dependant on everyones personal view of what 'enough' damage is. If all you do is farm dynamis, thf is more than adequate. If all you do is VW, then you will be frustrated and pissed off because thf is junky
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Note on VW:
I feel that is more due to lack of procs than damage. People prefer smns to real DDs for procs. War/Drks proc more than most DDs WHILE doing good damage. I get asked to go Rng over my GD Ryunohige mythic Drg that rapes EVERYONE in DD power because rng covers way more procs than drg. People dont really invite jobs to VW for prime DD in most cases. They need procs because a group of medium DDs with infinite fanatics drinks and TP wings>>>>>Super DDs with 1-2 refills. If my damn Ryunohige drg gets cut for my mediocre rng, tripling thfs damage will have NO effect on VW. No procs. No VW love. The end.
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/back on topic.
It is an uphill battle to obtain any concensus on where thf damage 'should' be because it is weighing a tangible gain (damage, specifically vs high end mobs) vs intangible ones whos value is entirely in the eye of the beholder and what they personally do with thf.

Its not really an argument you can win because there is no finish line. That is why i took the stance early on in the thread about 'what tangible problem does it solve' because we will never gain any consensus on what level of damage is 'adequate' for thf. Some people are very happy with their overall damage based ontheir experience. Some think its dismal (if all you do is VW/Large zergy events). Trying to rally thfs all under 1 banner will prove more problematic than consolidating the republican constituency behind 1 canditate this year :P

Much like going to the rdm forums and saying we need a 5% boost to nuking damage to make it 'more viable'. No one will argue that a 5% nuke boost doesnt help make rdm nukeing 'more viable' but will devolve into a 'Rdm nuking is fine for what rdm is' vs 'Rdm isnt a blm! Quit trying to make it a heavy nuker we dont need it!!!' Or similarly upping sword damage as a solution to rdm melee would encounter virtually identical infighting.

[Fupafighter]

Why is everything about VW lol?

[Laphine]

because voidwatch is the current endgame? no matter what other events you do, you will have to face vw in the end. I even had plans to work on mandau for more thieving power, but why bother? In the end i would have to go back to vw and stop using thf (and all these items i worked my ass for) forever.

[Karbuncle]

Why is everything about VW lol?

Laphine summed it up nicely, But its because its the current endgame content where the majority of the good Armor in the game comes from, and will come from in the near future.

There are other endgame events planned, And currently Neo-Nyzul exists, But Neo-Nyzul as i explained in the Neo-Nyzul thread isn't THF Friendly either, With the update coming along where you can "kill 5 bosses = get 1 piece of that bosses item" or "Kill Floor 100 once and get 1 Floor 100 body", while the normal Enemies can still drop those items, Dropping a THF for a WAR or BLU or a better DD in general and picking up a few more moments of killspeed is far more favorable than bringing in the "magic dust" that may or may not get you a drop.

Being able to largely increase your chance of Consistently hitting floor 80 by Dropping TH and picking up a Faster DD is a much smarter idea than bringing a THF In hope it causes the mob to drop something. Not saying to leave TH out entirely, have your Mage come /THF, or if you're using a SCH and they need /WHM for Haste, Then bring a BST, or have one of your BLU's set Treasure Hunter.

If dropping your THF Gets you to Floor 80 Even 20% more often, You've shortened the time it would take to get all the floor 100 Armor by Weeks if not Months. Thief is, because TH's being its only "use", a liability in just about every endgame event of consequence.

SE Sees it too, But instead of buffing THF, god forbid they actually buff a job like they promised too, they nerf BST, which won't make a difference in the long run, because the only event that'd effect in reality is Dynamis, and that won't stop BSTs from doing Dynamis on BST because if your options are to solo, BST/DNC > THF/DNC, no amount of Unknown mysterious drop rate increases will change that.

Legion, In the upcomming future, Appears to implore a random-drop system as well, So that might mean 1 Single THF might make its way into some alliances, but that doesn't quite make the job okay. (and before its lost, THF isn't the only job that suffers from this, just the one in discussion)

[Zargosa]

Altho I can honestly admit to not reading the entire post, SE doesn't have a track record of repeatedly changing things due to "balance" other than messing with COR rolls more times than I can recall over the years. They've actually given dagger a fairly large damage boost than what it originally was, proof being that Garuda's Dagger used to be one of the better daggers to have until they changed 98% of the dmg up a few notches, yet it still retains the original stats placed upon it. However if they do actually read through it (hopefully more than myself) it would be nice to have higher dps as THF instead of just burst damage without having to run empy aftermath for a few extra points of damage.

Examples of the last times they did it being
http://www.zam.com/wiki/September_14...tes_%28FFXI%29

http://www.zam.com/wiki/July_25%2C_2...tes_%28FFXI%29

[Babekeke]

Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF.

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

• Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it. (due to extra TP gained from counters allowing them to WS more frequently).
  
  Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

[Starry]

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

• Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

Please explain to us a situation or two where THF would encompass close to 70:30 of a parse against a 'fairly equal' war. Or what are you considering 'not miles apart' are you talking 50%, 40%, 5%? Sure the above comparison is a little off, but the point is in almost every single situation(at least that I can think of) a WAR(or SAM, or DRK) is going to be 30%+ higher on a parse of <.<

*Unless of course your comparing an extremely high end to an extremely low end gear/skill player. While it'll always be hard to get 'equal skill and gear' we can try.