Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Laphine]

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

[Karbuncle]

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

Yah, As i said, We do have situations where we shine a bit more, But theres not a lot of "low buff' Situations theres days, And Dynamis most DD sub /DNC for proc, Which kinda skews it as well. THF Can Sub WAR outside, and Other jobs can Sub /SAM, or /WAR, which kinda favors other jobs a bit more.

The situations of unbuffed DD are kinda going away, most events have the COR/BRD Parties again (maybe outside Neo-Nyzul).

[Motenten]

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc.

Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms

Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

DC mobs in Dynamis are level 96-97, which were the targets in my parse samples.

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me.

It wasn't meant to be shocking. It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost like they were when i first said them. its Emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD

Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth.

To add some clarity to that parse:


Thf Exenterator avg: 2294 (almost always stacked with SA/TA)
Sam Shoha avg: 2298
Sam Fudo avg: 2389

#Exenterators: 101
#Shoha+Fudo: 165

Avg hits per weaponskill for sam: 5.40 (5-hit with some loss from using steps)
Avg hits per weaponskill for thf: 31.17 (higher loss due to keeping up Haste Samba)

Total weaponskill damage:
Thf: 233370
Sam: 383270

Total melee damage:
Thf: 329437
Sam: 245379

Sam clearly won by miles on the weaponskill side, but I mostly compensated for that on the melee side.

As far as I recall, there was no turning to proc unless the mob was at like 5% and a JA timer was about to come up. No more than a few seconds was wasted in those situations, and they were rare.

Can't provide gear sets, unfortunately.

Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch.

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash.

TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

[Karbuncle]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

I meant in terms of the actual base damage of the weapon. Like, If Mandau Was D:50, and it got upgraded to D:55, It would be +10% To base Damage, Not your damage output, Specifically speaking on the number of the actual Displayed value on the Dagger.

Yes I'm aware its a weird thing to say.

Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

Depends on the Parse. You can't parse yourself against someone who's only known value is "90 Masa" and show a THF who's only known values are "2x Thokcha" and expect the parse to be taken at face value. You don't post your Gearsets, his Gearsets, nothing.

Parses are great, But can be vastly skewed in one way or the other by simple human error, They only give good Estimations in controlled environments, Dynamis is not such a place. In my opinion anyway.

Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Half wrong. but, I'm confused by this statement, Are you trying to tell me that THF is fully capable of beating another real DD, like an Ukon WAR, When they're both equally geared and skilled?

*Explained In my post below*

It wasn't meant to be shocking.

Yes, I guess my choice of words is wrong. Maybe I should have said "I'm not surprised about these results, Its kinda what i Anticipate would happen". At the same time, I go on to try and convey, "I need more information to take these at value". Some people think Empyrean+1 Armor is somehow good, This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

not saying he is, Just dont really have strong information on this guy. If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

You proved to me what i already knew. a Good THF Can come close to another Good DD in events where neither party is actually buffed beyond Haste (maybe? Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?)

You provided one parse as proof, I could parse a Melee RDM out-DDing an Ukon WAR, But everyone would look at me like an idiot if i walked into the RDM forums and said "See, I proved you guys Wrong, RDM can DD". I'd be laughed off the forums.

Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

Actually, I beg to differ, If THF was a good DD, It could grab a DD spot. It barely fits that role, If what you said was true, It would Imply THF was in Demand other places, Just not voidwatch because of how it functions, When in reality, Thats not true as well. THF is really not wanted or needed everywhere. It starts like PLD, in the way, people always bring it to new events, or as a "Well, I guess we have one more spot..." Safety-net type deal, and slowly, People stop using it again once they realize they can get away with someone coming /THF, Or bring a BLU and setting TH, or bringing a BST, all who offer more than THF has to offer, in terms of Damage, and support.

Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

*Explained in post below*

THF is for all intents and purposes the RDM of Melee jobs. We excel at nothing. We have no unique qualities or aspects. Its a job that poorly does what other jobs can already do, and this sets the bar on its uses.

In the grand scheme of things, THF is a useless job. Its one bread and butter is TH, and even that, Is optional at best when there are other options out there for Obtaining TH, and most of them come with a net gain in some field.

being an "Adequate" DD means nothing in FFXI, Being "Second place" means nothing. The job has nothing remarkable or useful about it. No matter how you math or parse it, THF will never come out on Top. So in that regards, It needs help.

Not exactly in a DD manner, But as I've repeated more times than i can even pretend to care to count, My focus is not always on the DD manner of THF, Sure, It needs to keep up, But at the same time, Giving it more unique qualities is what It deep down needs.

To add some clarity to that parse:

Thank you for the clarity. And at least attempting to provide gear sets even though you couldn't, I appreciate the thought.

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

I agree, Its likely cause no one wants to go SMN, but its also cause THF is a liability, Its not as good as DD as a WAR, so its not going to get a DD slot, it has no Unique Procs, and it has nothing else going for it, Sadly.

All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

Read pages 3-7. I've already explained what the meaning of this thread was, and it certainly was never, ever, Making THF the best DD, or that somehow this proposed adjustment is somewhere in my "top 3 wishlist". It was a passing thought.

At this point, Nothing I'm arguing with you about pertains to the OP in my mind, Thats old news to me, i've grown past the idea of wanting this particular part of the update thanks to someone on page 3.

[Karbuncle]

To Clarify the best i can. In terms of me on the subject of "THF is a useless DD" and "THF can deal good Damage", Its not contradicting. Lets put it this Way.

THF is a Car that can go 80 MPH,
WAR can go 100MPH
SAM can go 90MPH

In this comparison, THF is still a fast car(read; Good DD on its own), But if your Goal is getting from A to B as quick as possible, You don't chose a THF mobile, You chose the WARmobile(Read: THF is useless when placed next to WAR). in the same way, Thats how THF DD looks, and what i'm trying to Convey, Its not contradicting, You just have to know how to look at it.

I don't want THF to go 100MPH, I want THF to go 80MPH, But make friendly Cars around it Gain 10MPG to their Fuel consumption, and maybe enemy cars go 5MPH slower. Keeping it a Fast Car, But making other Cars perform better so its useful to have it a long in more ways than just being "A fast car, But not as fast...".

Otherwise, You'd just replace the 80MPH Car with the 100MPH Car and gain 20MPH.

Right now, THF Goes 80MPH and Sprinkles magic dust behind it(TH), no one knows exactly what all the magic dust does, We just know it looks pretty and someone tells us its like rubbing Cheetah Blood on the car.

I think this explanation works.

[Fupafighter]

Well I do think thf can do alot, given proper situations lol. The main one I'm saying is a dnc and thf combo makes my day when the monster dies and noone needs curing in 10 seconds. Not saying it beats war or sam, just saying, alot of times doing too much damage too fast results in less gil and more curing. If legion doesn't have a procing system like i hear, I think thf will be considered useful again though, which is great. SE needs to realize Th and hate control was thfs main intent, and capping enmity on any DD job is way too easy and the main events don't require TH atm.

[Motenten]

Oh? They feel weaker. Odd. Do Beastmen have lower Defense than normal mobs? (outside of PLDs)

Not especially (though it may vary slightly between, say, yags and orcs). The 'weakness' is probably almost entirely to do with not having to fight against level correction.

If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

Perfectly understandable.

This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

I know she has Zelus Tiara, all +2 gear, Hachiman legs (it was one of her big upgrades back at 75; not sure if there's anything better for sam now), Grim Cuirass +1, and am pretty sure hits the 25% haste/5-hit ideal on Masa right now. There's not much she doesn't have best-in-slot for.

Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?

Most of the time. Total time hasted was about the same for each of us.

And as posted above, I wont completely repeat, I know nothing about you or the Sam outside of your WS choice. you SA gear, your TA Gear, Your definition of 'Good', nothing.

Point. But it would be far easier to point you at my xml files (Motenten on pastebin) than to give gear lists for me, at least, as they're rather complex. Have had a few bits of equipment upgraded since that parse, though.


Theorycrafting with the spreadsheet to look at higher buff situations.

Thf and Mnk vs a fake Qilin (lvl 106, 640 def; not realistic def, but guessing for a tough mob for Legion). Both are in buff party getting double Marches and Chaos Roll. Dia II on mob. Both thf and mnk are /war using RCBs, both have Berserk up; mnk gets Impetus. Middling-to-good gear for both, no Empyrean weapons, just AH/magians/merit weaponskills.

Mnk: 290 (260 without Impetus)
Thf: 247

Dropping mob def to 540 (more realistic)

Mnk: 351 (318 without Impetus)
Thf: 284

In this case, yes, I can somewhat agree with you regarding the spread of damage potential.

On the very high def mob, they weren't too far apart, aside from Impetus (meaning the gap could largely be closed with a similar JA buff). As the def drops to more reasonable levels the value of crits declines, allowing the mnk to pull further ahead. Overall split in the first case would be 46% thf, 54% mnk; in the latter case it would be about 45% thf, 55% mnk.

That's enough of a gap to be noticeable. On the other hand, your (granted no longer advocated) proposal would shift the thf's percentage in the latter case from 44.72% to... 45.24%.


So, while there's certainly a gap that needs to be addressed, a base damage increase is really nowhere close to a solution.

Upper limit of improvement from any JA idea: 15%. Very unlikely due to 'balance' issues.

A buff in the 5%-10% range would not seem unreasonable. 5% as a conservative estimate. Base damage increase needed to provide that would be bumping a fire Thokcha from d47 to d51, an 8.5% increase in base damage.


However a base damage increase seems too simplistic a solution; personally, I'd prefer something that buffed damage in conjunction with thf's other utility roles.

Random idea: A JA that uses another player's current hate as a source of damage. Take the hate they've built up and literally use it as a weapon (while also dropping that person's hate). An extension of the Accomplice/Collaborator JAs. If too problematic, add additional damage based on the amount of hate stolen (a sort of bastardized version of drk's Scarlet Delirium).

[Karbuncle]

I edit like mad so Its always good to allow 10-20 Minutes before quoting me. That said, You should check out these:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ead-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...raps-and-Bombs.

Theres a lot more suggestion floating around, I think THF needs a lot of buffs, More toward helping them stand out and less toward DD, Their DD could use a boost, but nothing substantial if they get other boosts.

[Arcon]

I'm getting headaches of confusion reading this thread.

Here's two statements, both of which are completely true:
1. Thief is a decent DD
2. Thief is a horrible DD

The problem is how you judge its DD-ness. Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF. And I admit that my dagger options are currently "meh" at best, but even counting a 20% efficiency gain I'd get from Mandau/Coruscanti I still wouldn't get near my WAR in damage, and anyone who says that I cannot, in good conscience, take seriously.

So if anyone is calling THF a gimp DD it's me, stop putting it on Karby. I don't see him saying it once. THF can get shit done and I get shit done on THF too whenever time is not an issue and I prefer having TH or more survival capabilities, I still would never bring it to any type of non-TH-able party situation like Voidwatch or Einherjar (yes, some people still do that). THF is a TH whore right now and in very few instances a good evasion tank, for whenever it's needed (which is barely anything these days). Anyone who even for a second believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

Also, it was obvious he was talking about weapon DPS not melee DPS. Also, SMN is the shit.

[Rezeak]

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.