Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Motenten]

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc.

Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms

Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

DC mobs in Dynamis are level 96-97, which were the targets in my parse samples.

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me.

It wasn't meant to be shocking. It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost like they were when i first said them. its Emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD

Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth.

To add some clarity to that parse:


Thf Exenterator avg: 2294 (almost always stacked with SA/TA)
Sam Shoha avg: 2298
Sam Fudo avg: 2389

#Exenterators: 101
#Shoha+Fudo: 165

Avg hits per weaponskill for sam: 5.40 (5-hit with some loss from using steps)
Avg hits per weaponskill for thf: 31.17 (higher loss due to keeping up Haste Samba)

Total weaponskill damage:
Thf: 233370
Sam: 383270

Total melee damage:
Thf: 329437
Sam: 245379

Sam clearly won by miles on the weaponskill side, but I mostly compensated for that on the melee side.

As far as I recall, there was no turning to proc unless the mob was at like 5% and a JA timer was about to come up. No more than a few seconds was wasted in those situations, and they were rare.

Can't provide gear sets, unfortunately.

Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch.

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash.

TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

[Karbuncle]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

I meant in terms of the actual base damage of the weapon. Like, If Mandau Was D:50, and it got upgraded to D:55, It would be +10% To base Damage, Not your damage output, Specifically speaking on the number of the actual Displayed value on the Dagger.

Yes I'm aware its a weird thing to say.

Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

Depends on the Parse. You can't parse yourself against someone who's only known value is "90 Masa" and show a THF who's only known values are "2x Thokcha" and expect the parse to be taken at face value. You don't post your Gearsets, his Gearsets, nothing.

Parses are great, But can be vastly skewed in one way or the other by simple human error, They only give good Estimations in controlled environments, Dynamis is not such a place. In my opinion anyway.

Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Half wrong. but, I'm confused by this statement, Are you trying to tell me that THF is fully capable of beating another real DD, like an Ukon WAR, When they're both equally geared and skilled?

*Explained In my post below*

It wasn't meant to be shocking.

Yes, I guess my choice of words is wrong. Maybe I should have said "I'm not surprised about these results, Its kinda what i Anticipate would happen". At the same time, I go on to try and convey, "I need more information to take these at value". Some people think Empyrean+1 Armor is somehow good, This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

not saying he is, Just dont really have strong information on this guy. If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

You proved to me what i already knew. a Good THF Can come close to another Good DD in events where neither party is actually buffed beyond Haste (maybe? Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?)

You provided one parse as proof, I could parse a Melee RDM out-DDing an Ukon WAR, But everyone would look at me like an idiot if i walked into the RDM forums and said "See, I proved you guys Wrong, RDM can DD". I'd be laughed off the forums.

Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

Actually, I beg to differ, If THF was a good DD, It could grab a DD spot. It barely fits that role, If what you said was true, It would Imply THF was in Demand other places, Just not voidwatch because of how it functions, When in reality, Thats not true as well. THF is really not wanted or needed everywhere. It starts like PLD, in the way, people always bring it to new events, or as a "Well, I guess we have one more spot..." Safety-net type deal, and slowly, People stop using it again once they realize they can get away with someone coming /THF, Or bring a BLU and setting TH, or bringing a BST, all who offer more than THF has to offer, in terms of Damage, and support.

Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

*Explained in post below*

THF is for all intents and purposes the RDM of Melee jobs. We excel at nothing. We have no unique qualities or aspects. Its a job that poorly does what other jobs can already do, and this sets the bar on its uses.

In the grand scheme of things, THF is a useless job. Its one bread and butter is TH, and even that, Is optional at best when there are other options out there for Obtaining TH, and most of them come with a net gain in some field.

being an "Adequate" DD means nothing in FFXI, Being "Second place" means nothing. The job has nothing remarkable or useful about it. No matter how you math or parse it, THF will never come out on Top. So in that regards, It needs help.

Not exactly in a DD manner, But as I've repeated more times than i can even pretend to care to count, My focus is not always on the DD manner of THF, Sure, It needs to keep up, But at the same time, Giving it more unique qualities is what It deep down needs.

To add some clarity to that parse:

Thank you for the clarity. And at least attempting to provide gear sets even though you couldn't, I appreciate the thought.

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

I agree, Its likely cause no one wants to go SMN, but its also cause THF is a liability, Its not as good as DD as a WAR, so its not going to get a DD slot, it has no Unique Procs, and it has nothing else going for it, Sadly.

All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

Read pages 3-7. I've already explained what the meaning of this thread was, and it certainly was never, ever, Making THF the best DD, or that somehow this proposed adjustment is somewhere in my "top 3 wishlist". It was a passing thought.

At this point, Nothing I'm arguing with you about pertains to the OP in my mind, Thats old news to me, i've grown past the idea of wanting this particular part of the update thanks to someone on page 3.