[dev1080] Thief - Assassin's Charge/feint proposed Adjustments

[Babekeke]

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

All additional hits caused by a multi-hit weaponskill aren't 100% acc. We've known this for years. It's always been a good idea to stick acc gear on, because a 5-hit ws with an off-hand swing and triple attack (unstacked) is Asuran Fists territory which has something like (off the top of my head) 8% chance to land all 8 hits even with capped acc. Even stacked, DE and Evis have 4 hits that aren't guaranteed.

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

I rarely see less than 14tp returns, and I'm happy with that. Not forgetting that ADL is probably the only mob high enough to worry about acc on that a THF might fight. (WoE and VW = {Job Change}) And there's always Sushi.

[Arcon]

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

Single hit TP return (9.2%)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

[Karbuncle]

Single hit TP return (9.2%)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

[Arcon]

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

[Karbuncle]

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

[Arcon]

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

Maybe your accuracy was not as low as you think it was? Is Blinding Potion really -256? What was your hit rate, and what level was the mob?

Also, it's quite possible that WS get an innate accuracy bonus for all hits regardless. Me, for one, I had a very hard time getting that 11% TP return, only managed that once.

[Arcon]

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

[Aana]

Finally found the original thread that tested this back in 2010.

I miss spoke in my other post. Offhand does land, but anything besides main+offhand has no ac boost. Screenshots and everything. Screenshot of a 9TP return, SA+AC Sharkbite when the TP return for 2 hits is only 9. Its pretty undisputable. Missed both triple attack hits AND the 'second' sharkbite hit. Whole thing but main and off completely whiffed.

Credit to Melphina for this test.

[Karbuncle]

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

Yah, Seems to be a "First two hits" Situation.

My accuracy was most certainly floored btw >_>

[Aana]

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

I wouldnt say extra merits are fully wasted. All the options are meh. What are you going to do instead? Ambush? lolTH feint? None of the 'additional effects' are OMGBBQ GOTA HAZ!

I will add though, mercy stroke thfs should strongly consider AC merits because unlike the rest of us that stack 90+ dex on all our WS for loads of acc on WS anyway, a mandau thf using str based mercy builds doesnt have all that free acc. Acc on an AC is most welcome in a build like that on a WS that strong.