[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Afania]

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

Actually PD is one of the most game changing ability in this game. I wouldn't say it's not "OMG Awesome sauce".

[Mahoro]

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

[saevel]

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

*Cough*

Jobs are not judged by what they can do at their best, their judged by what they do on average. Average SMN is a waste of a slot outside of BP procs. Super dedicated SMN can earn their slot, but still not anything super OMG. PD, which is a 2hr mind you, is the only thing right now that SMN really has to offer. You mentioned haste, yet I can count on one hand the number of SMN's I've seen in my 8~9yrs of playing that actually attempted to maintain haste as a buff, and not a single one kept it up longer then 15 min. When people want the haste spell, they think RDM and WHM, not SMN, even though pretty much any support job /WHM can do haste for awhile now. Heck SMN can't even heal now due to all them running to /RDM and never ~ever~ casting cure or haste on party members, even when one is dieing right in front of them.

I can go on and on about how bad that job is broke right now, half of it is that players have become to numb to how broke SMN is that they don't even try anymore. At least PUP and BST can always fall back to being a generic melee #238, SMN doesn't even have that option.

Again this isn't me hating on the job, I really do wish SE would fix the damn job because it has amazing potential. Removal of BP timers needs to be done ASAP, greatly reducing perpetuation costs, and some way to transfer masters buff to summoned pet similar to what atma's did inside abysesa. If your avatars had specialized stats, some having high attack / accuracy / haste / STR / DEX, others having high MAB / INT / MND and let Titan have high defense / VIT / -DT and +enmity. Then we'd be talking about a powerful job.

[saevel]

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Emp WAR / MNK, pimped DRG, generic SAM, pretty much all the "DD"s. WHM's super cures. PLD's Brochain / Aegis (although tanking isn't much these days). BRD's super buffs, COR's super buffs, QD and WF. SCH's massive assortment of JA's, or even their 2H which is a miniature brew (although limited outside abyssea). BLM's mega nukes. Heck even broken RDM has more use's then SMN.

SMN has ... BP procs and .... PD zergs. BP procs are only VWNM, which is currently the ~only~ "end game" available, once Legion / Nyzule get back SMN's usefulness drops to near zero.

And removing the BP timers would not break SMN. Summing time + readying time + dismissal time would ensure there was a limit on what they could do. If removal is too much, then make them 15s. There is no excuse why SMN can only do one cool thing per 60s for each type of move. You can either do stoneskin, or heal or remove status ailments, but no combination of the three. Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

[Mahoro]

You do say super dedicated SMN can earn their slot in endgame, which is all I was arguing when listing the 7 reasons SMN has a role at the moment.

Never claimed "Super OMG" status on anything, those are qualifiers YOU are introducing to the mix. In any event, applying "must have" or "OMG awesome sauce" to some of the stuff in your list is a bit of a stretch to say the least ("Generic SAM", "SCH JA's", and "pretty much all the DD's" don't exactly take my breath away, barring Embrava.) Regarding "BLM nukes", SMN can mostly hold their own with proper gear and 5/5 merit pacts, the only difference being the 45 second limiter since BLM's can now spam spells with abandon in endgame 2012. And by your own yardstick of judging jobs what they can do "on average" the list is also stretching as well, since you are including Empys, Relic, and 2hrs. As for /RDM, I actually don't agree they should run /RDM in the days of temp spamming/Abyssea. I always go /WHM and help heal in between 45 second BP's, what the hell else would I do? Believe me, the WHM in my ally are grateful for the help.

I actually agree with the latter half of both of your posts, especially what you say about BP timers. I agree the job needs serious fixing on the timer end. Not abolishment of the timer, but a lowering of the BP- delay cap.

[Economizer]

Summoner, while a great concept and a wonderful looking job, could definitely use some tweaks to make it more useful in more varied content.

Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

This would probably be interesting at least. It is really too bad they don't test extreme mechanics on the test server with the statement "this will probably never be implemented, but we want to get data from it being tested" like certain other gaming companies test some things.

Back to your idea, I like the concept of this at very least, it would preserve the usefulness of BP reduction gear and they could copy it from Scholar (although they could keep separate timers for Rage/Ward to make it more unique and retain balance). Thus at low levels you'd only get one charge with a sixty second timer, or basically, no change. But at higher levels you'd get more charges and maybe even a little recast reduction. They could increase the recast cap as well.

Then, on top of this they could have a job ability Summoners could spam that sacrifices a large amount of MP and causes a hate spike to get more charges (or some mixture of those as a cost of usage). You'd be able to have emnityless actions, but if you wanted an extra "oomph" you could start dipping into the monster's hate list (which would be more risky solo, so this mechanic would be great for parties).

On Avatar auto-attack rounds there might be better suggestions but I'll give a few.

• Summoning Magic Skill as their weapon "skill" in terms of attack/accuracy boost (if it isn't used already).
• Enspells based on Summoning Magic Skill like many have suggested.
• Temper effect based on Summoning Magic Skill after obtaining 300 base skill.
• "Job Ability" category haste based on Summoning Magic Skill
  With the current 500 skill effectiveness cap, Skill/20 -> Haste% or 500/20 -> 25% "Job Ability" Haste.

This in tandem with other tweaks will greatly help auto-attack damage (and if some are too powerful they should either not get implemented or as an alternative be based on Summoning Magic currently on the wearer rather then on cast of the avatar, which would force more tactical trade offs).

[Greatguardian]

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role. It's just not as useful as, well, any other Support-class job in that role. It could be worse, and it's certainly less of a gap than it is with Damage, but Summoner is really no better than Red Mage in a pure support role (and Rdm is pretty bad in that role right now).

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

[Mahoro]

I find fault with the statement that it isn't as useful as ANY other support class job in that role (some of the buffs on my list are unique to SMN, don't overwrite other buffs, and one is the best version of the Haste spell) but I agree that in the FF if 2012, the BP system needs to be reworked.

[Yygdrasil]

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role.

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

[SpankWustler]

Welcome to the Thunderdome

This opens discussion of a whole other pet job altogether...